swim class in phase II

[doc22584]

When i took the swim test in selection i didnt make it the whole 50 meters. After i got seleceted i asked the SFAS cadre about it and he said they give a swim class during phase II. I've been taking lessons here on my homestation to get ready for the test, but if they are giving a swim class id like to those also, I know you have to pass the swim test to go to the next phase so id like to take full advantage of any classes they would give.

thanks in advance.

[Team Sergeant]

doc22584,

You need to become a fish in the water before you attend SFAS or even think about joining Special Forces.

Those three lighting bolts on our patch stand for "Land Sea and Air". So you’ve got a one in three chance of being assigned to a Scuba or water team.

I've know a few SF soldiers that have died from drowning while on active duty. You need to be an animal in the water. If you are a weak swimmer you need to become a strong swimmer. (else john kerry might have to rescue you and I’d sure hate to have that hanging over my head for decades)

The only thing more fun than swimming across Drowning Creek in the dead of winter is first breaking the ice in order to swim it. Ever wonder why they named it "Drowning Creek"?

Become an animal in the water, you want to be the rescuer not the rescue-ee!

Go to your base pool and find a swim instructor.


Team Sergeant

[skipjack]

I'm not sure about anyone else's experience but there was no swimming, besides getting artied and maybe some night crossings...lol, in phase II. Though they did make some changes to Phase II recently. We did take another swim test when arriving to Student Co. but some people asked about a swim class and no one knew what they were talking about. If you have time before you get to Student Co. then find a buddy that can swim very well and have him train you up in the water. Swimming is not hard, just technique, but it is important! Plus, I know a lot of ODA's for Sage are doing Water PT, while we wait to go to Sage. I can't speak for being on a Team yet, as I am not there (2 months left in the Q), so listen to TS on that one.

-skipjack

[doc22584]

doc22584,

You need to become a fish in the water before you attend SFAS or even think about joining Special Forces.

Those three lighting bolts on our patch stand for "Land Sea and Air". So you’ve got a one in three chance of being assigned to a Scuba or water team.

I've know a few SF soldiers that have died from drowning while on active duty. You need to be an animal in the water. If you are a weak swimmer you need to become a strong swimmer. (else john kerry might have to rescue you and I’d sure hate to have that hanging over my head for decades)

The only thing more fun than swimming across Drowning Creek in the dead of winter is first breaking the ice in order to swim it. Ever wonder why they named it "Drowning Creek"?

Become an animal in the water, you want to be the rescuer not the rescue-ee!

Go to your base pool and find a swim instructor.


Team Sergeant

I can swim, but the cadre at SFAS told me i was a weak swimmer and that i would have to take the 2 week swim class. Im currently taking swim lessons right now.

[doc22584]

Team Sergeant,

I got my info from this website. http://www.soc.mil/swcs/Pipeline.shtml

Under the pre-req's they state that a 2 week class is offered just prior to the start of the Q. If you or anyone else knows if they still offer that class i would greatly appreciate some insight.

[x SF med]

Doc-
Listen to TS, there were more failures in my PrePhase (SFAS now) than anything else - over 40% due to swimming. ALL Teams swim, and work on water ops - train up now don't wait. Get in the pool, get in the lake, get in the ocean, get in the river - they all have their own personalities once you are in them at night dragging your ruck behind you. Tactical swimming is mostly core work - sidestroke, breaststroke, kicking with fins on your stomach and on your back- get very good, plus it is amazing exercise.

[Team Sergeant]

Team Sergeant,

I got my info from this website. http://www.soc.mil/swcs/Pipeline.shtml

Under the pre-req's they state that a 2 week class is offered just prior to the start of the Q. If you or anyone else knows if they still offer that class i would greatly appreciate some insight.

7. Pass a 50 meter swim with BDU's & boots (diagnostic given at SFAS, test upon arrival at SFQC): there is a 2-week swim course offered just prior to SFQC if one fails the diagnostic at SFAS...enlisted only (this 2-week prep course is not mandatory)

So let me get this straight, you're willing to bet/hope that this two week course will get you where you think you will need to be for the test given at SFQC? That's a mighty big wager. If the guys told you at SFAS you were a weak swimmer that was your wake up call. If you arrive again, weak, pray the same instructor is not giving the same test at SFQC.....;)

You need to forget that class and get to work on swimming now.

I cannot tell you if that is still being offered but the SFAS SGM might be able to..... (Someone want to give the SGM a shout? ;) )

TS

[doc22584]

I went to a pool today and i did the 50 meter swim sucessfully. My reason for asking about the class is so i can get more pool time with a qualified instructor.

[blustr18b]

Mine used to get in the pool with his rucksack on and tread water...good old waterpolo practice!

blustr18b

[CoLawman]

I went to a pool today and i did the 50 meter swim sucessfully. My reason for asking about the class is so i can get more pool time with a qualified instructor.

Doc,

I am stepping a little out of my lane.......but, I do have some experience around water. The QP's have told you to swim. You do not need a swim instructor or coach. You are not working on your turns and starts. You are working on your endurance and muscle development.

How many accomplished runners waited around for a coach or instructor?

You are losing valuable time. 50 meters is not nearly enough to make you an accomplished swimmer. That is a minimum standard. Go to the pool, lake or river and swim. Nice slow pace for 30 minutes. rest as needed. When you can do a 30 minute swim without needing a rest..........you are ready.

My Credentials: My daugher was a 5 time All American and Team Captain on her College team. Her specialty was the mile. Her dad had her swimming lakes, rivers, and pools, without a stop watch or concern for technique at the formative stages.:lifter

[Prester John]

I bet Mr. Harsey has a few tips on swimming.

We had very few guys fail the swim test in my track, and the ones who did went to the pool by themselves everyday (In addition to PT sessions) for the last few months to get better at swimming. They are all advnacing with us to Phase II.

I am no great swimmer (Read: not a competative swimmer) but I got out of the pool after the swim test and wasn't even breathing hard... I try to get into the pool to swim for an hour at least twice a week.

My $.02 FWIW...

Doug

[kailua99]

In the past, Student Company has provided swim training for weak swimmers before Phase II. I know that they give a must-pass test to all incoming Students, but I don't know if the lessons are still offered. I'll check and post the answer. I do know this - Drowning Creek is full and running strong right now. Knowing how to swim before you come to SFAS is a good thing (free advise to anyone coming to SFAS Class 8-06).

[NousDefionsDoc]

You don't want to be a "weak" anything in SF.

When I was on a Strat Recon Team with Reaper, we also had small boat and scout swimming missions. If you have limitations on your infil method, you might not get to go. It would suck to be left behind because you were "weak". It would suck even more to drown or watch a Teammate drown.

If you are weak at something, it is your responsibility to get up to speed on it.

I was just wondering...How much of the earth's surface is covered by water?

[x SF med]

Doc-

Another .02 to toss in the ring here. 50 m in a warm pool with lifeguards is a hell of a lot different than a 2 mi infil in freezing water, in a dry suit, dragging a ruck, and navigating. Falling out of an RB 15 in the middle of the night loaded for bear, even with a BC ain't something you want to do as a weak swimmer. Finding the one hole in waist high river and falling over 'cause your ruck is so heavy, calls for you and the 3 guys nearest you to be really good swimmers.

No lifeguards, no excuses, your life and your buddy's life depend on not only being a swimmer but a strong swimmer. Oh, at least when I was in, runs would be supplemented with "Lake Swims" for PT - run for a while, then swim across/around a lake - run some more, and swim a little more, then run back to the Team House.

Bud, swimming is in your job description, get good at it.

[JLF]

Speaking of swimming,

Last night we did a RAMZ MFF with a two hour window to RV with a helo IOT FAC an underway transload and the friggin bottle was entangled with the chutes so bad that it almost took the whole two hours just to inflate the damn Zodiac.

We (5 man team) took turns keeping the package from sinking and diving down to cut the package free from its container. In the darkness of the night with a chemlight and all kinds of silk/suspension lines in the water on a breath hold it isn’t exactly a good time. You definitely need to be comfortable in the water to say the least and you won't be if you're not competent in the water (an early prerequisite is being a strong swimmer).

I’m not sure if you’ll do RAMZ in SF but I’m very sure SF does waterborne ops and being in the water at night trying to link up with a MH-53/MH-47 with all that rotor wash, and an unforgiving sea-state all the while trying to keep your teammates in close proximity (read: arms length separation) and trying to grab onto a rope ladder that’s moving away from you can be a little hairy.

[doc22584]

I've been in the pool everyday swimming and i've got my confidence up. I dont panic in the water anymore so thats a plus. I'm fairly confident in my swimming abilities now and am confident about the swim test. I understand what everyone is saying about getting better at swimming. Ill be in the pool everyday until its second nature to me.

[x SF med]

Doc-
We're trying to let you know swimming is a very important part of your chosen career path. If you can get to lakes, rivers, the ocean - practice in them too, your buddies that are strong swimmers will probably want to go with you, for the practice, and as a cameraderie thing - keep working on it, you'll probably get to the point that you find swimming fun.

[doc22584]

I understand that swimming is very important, and i appreciate everyone help and suggestions. I mean it only makes sense that you have to be able to swim if you want to be a QP. Like someone said earlier, those 3 lighting bolts stand for LAND, SEA and AIR.

[whitej34]

I was just wondering...How much of the earth's surface is covered by water?

A little more than 70%.

[12B4S]

I understand that swimming is very important, and i appreciate everyone help and suggestions. I mean it only makes sense that you have to be able to swim if you want to be a QP. Like someone said earlier, those 3 lighting bolts stand for LAND, SEA and AIR.

TS, was that 'someone.' doc.....

x_ made a good point as well. There will be times you may have to use the 'crawl'. Most of it will be..... ohhhh how to put all this in type? Most will be with fins, more than likely, wearing a 'dry suit', other times a 'wet suit', at times, neither.

Have more here than I feel like typing. However. One example:
In Toelz, most the Teams were mountain Teams. My Team, received orders to go to Greece for Amphib/Scout swimming school. Training was a month. There was no swimming school or test when I went through SFTG.

In Greece we started everday with a 5 mile run. Several times a week, we had 'swims'. They varied from 2 miles to 5 miles, along with the other training, RB15s and such. We worked with the Greek army. When my Team and the other Team swam, we were tethered to a Greek soldier, not to mention that our instructors made a point of dropping us whatever given miles out in the 'Med,' knowing damn well the tide would be going out. I thought Greeks were swimmers/divers. NOPE. We tried towing these guys to shore. That got old after an hour and more, even on a two mile swim. The next day, we towed thier lazy asses for a mile or so, talking, yelling...... then un-hooked the 5 foot or so 'bubby line' ...... Waving buh bye.

That is a nutshell thing. It comes to..........you'd best be able to swim for hours in any conditions. If you want more on those conditions, I'm sure there are many of us on here that can fill you in.

Bottom line......... You aren't swimming a whatever stroke for a Gold Medal. You need the stamina in the water, just as you do on land. At times both!!!

[Team Sergeant]

I dont panic in the water anymore so thats a plus.

That's great cause the first time you jump off a BlackHawk into 2 feet of water carrying an M-240 or M-249 with a thousand rounds of ammo, grenades etc and find out the water is really 12 feet deep you will know what it is to be a SF soldier.

The first time I stepped off a Navy landing craft was after we "hit" a sandbar 100 meters from shore. I watched the first two guys "disappear" carrying the basic load of infantry equipment. I also "disappeared" for a minute while carrying the M-60 right behind them.....

If you do not learn to control your emotions they will control you. If you panic in SF at anytime you will be gone.

TS

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Bottom line......... You aren't swimming a whatever stroke for a Gold Medal. You need the stamina in the water, just as you do on land. At times both!!!

That's a fact. I am negatively bouyant, can dive in a pool and sit on the bottom and basically have to work to stay a float. The hardest thing I ever had to do was when I was a midshipman (don't ask) in the US Merchant Marine Academy at Kings Point was tread water for 30 minutes without being allowed to change my position. For me, swimming is not relaxing it is extreme PT.

[TFM]

. I am negatively bouyant, can dive in a pool and sit on the bottom and basically have to work to stay a float. I'm in the same boat. I have spent some time trying to improve my endurance in the water, but never got outstanding results. I spent a lot of time trying to refine my stroke to rule that out as the reason I suck so bad. What drives me crazy is that I can run to no end, but I swim 50 meters and I'm suckin.

[x SF med]

COL Jack-
you went to school at the north end of Little Neck Bay? I used to sail Blue Jays, Lasers, etc. right by your Alma Mater(grew up on the SE end of the bay, home of the Sappho) - got to sail the 12's out of KP a few times. I loved getting the idiots to follow a blue jay through the slot at Stepping Stones.

To the point of the Thread - we also used to swim from the south end of the bay to the south jetty at KP, rest for 20 minutes and swim back - crossing Udalls Cove/Great Neck Estates was the worst part - had to cross open water without any warning to boaters - didn't realize I was training for SF as a kid.

[NousDefionsDoc]

COL Jack-
you went to school at the north end of Little Neck Bay? I used to sail Blue Jays, Lasers, etc. right by your Alma Mater(grew up on the SE end of the bay, home of the Sappho) - got to sail the 12's out of KP a few times. I loved getting the idiots to follow a blue jay through the slot at Stepping Stones.

To the point of the Thread - we also used to swim from the south end of the bay to the south jetty at KP, rest for 20 minutes and swim back - crossing Udalls Cove/Great Neck Estates was the worst part - had to cross open water without any warning to boaters - didn't realize I was training for SF as a kid.
I doubt it was at the same time, I read somewhere that Colonel Sir cut his naval teeth on triremes at Arginusae...;)

[x SF med]

I doubt it was at the same time, I read somewhere that Colonel Sir cut his naval teeth on triremes at Arginusae...;)

As the drum guy, or a rower?

I know it wasn't at the same time - he would have been there from the year I was born till the time I was about 4. I think the Reliant and Sappho were still sailing back then..... It still amazes me that COL Jack went to the easiest "Military Academy" in the US. I just cannot see the COL as a Merchant Marine (boy, there's an oxymoron)

[NousDefionsDoc]

As the drum guy, or a rower?

I know it wasn't at the same time - he would have been there from the year I was born till the time I was about 4. I think the Reliant and Sappho were still sailing back then..... It still amazes me that COL Jack went to the easiest "Military Academy" in the US. I just cannot see the COL as a Merchant Marine (boy, there's an oxymoron)
Piper on the Hephaistia

[Goggles Pizano]

As the drum guy, or a rower?




"We keep you alive to serve this ship. So row well, and live!"

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

I just cannot see the COL as a Merchant Marine (boy, there's an oxymoron)

Neither could I, but that, as they say, is another story. I left there and graduated from the University of Maine. Of course, you must realize with the timeline you all have relegated me to, one of my visiting professors was a Viking on sabatical from pillaging along the coast of Newfoundland.

[x SF med]

Neither could I, but that, as they say, is another story. I left there and graduated from the University of Maine. Of course, you must realize with the timeline you all have relegated me to, one of my visiting professors was a Viking on sabatical from pillaging along the coast of Newfoundland.

Leif or Eric? I understand they were both visiting professors at the USMMA during your stay. I understand Jason gave a few guest lectures too, there was a nice write up on his "Song of the Sirens, or 101 uses for beeswax and wool for your crew" lecture.

[Kyobanim]

Here's a little info on why you have to swim. I don't know how dated this is but most of the other information on the page looks accurate. Take it FWIW.
From the Special Operations Reference Manual (http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/socom/sof-ref-2-1/).


Water Infiltration/Exfiltration

All water infiltration techniques may be initiated from surface or sub-surface mother craft, dropped by parachute from fixed wing aircraft, or delivered by rotary wing aircraft. Three ODAs per SFG can infiltrate or exfiltrate using closed circuit breathing equipment. Three ODAs per SFG are capable of utilizing open circuit breathing equipment for non-tactical applications (i.e., ship bottom searches and recovery operations). Nine ODAs per SFG are trained to infiltrate/exfiltrate by combat rubber raiding craft (CRRC). Twelve ODAs per SFG can infiltrate/exfiltrate by surface swim techniques. All surface swim operations are limited to sea states not to exceed 3 foot chop and 4 foot swell. Surface swim operations will not be conducted against currents in excess of 1 knot.

[Pete]

Well after Kyobanim's post this would be a good time to tell about the time I was pinned to the side door of a Submarine while it was underway.

Told that to a pre-scuba class one time and one guy picked up his gear and turned in in on the spot.

If you want the rest of the story you'll have to make it through the course and get together with some of us old farts at the GB Club.


In the middle of nowhere, with limited help around or at O-Dark thirty is not the time to find out you were weaker in some areas than you thought. Really bad for the team also.

Pete

Why is it that the wrench likes to get thrown into things at around 0230 Hours?

[x SF med]

Here's a little info on why you have to swim. I don't know how dated this is but most of the other information on the page looks accurate. Take it FWIW.
From the Special Operations Reference Manual (http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/socom/sof-ref-2-1/).

Kyo-
looks like what I remember - but my brain got frozen a few times, and water logged a few more than that. Ah yes, rubber pajamas with feet and a hood, and no way to pee on a long swim...


Pete- 0230 is the magic hour, when you're on the ramp and the jump gets scrubbed, when you're thinking infil is in 4 hrs, and they tell you to suit up now 0300 dive in the water with a sweet little 2 mi swim, the grenade and arty sims go off on the first night idoors in a month at Camp McK, when you get busted sneaking the girl out of the barracks by the SGM....

[Pete]

.... when you get busted sneaking the girl out of the barracks by the SGM....


Now that brings up the time I was going through "my" barracks checking "my" rooms one afternoon.

I went into one young Staff Sergeant's room and a naked young lady waked out of the bathroom. She of course gave a little scream and jumped behind a wall locker door. She wanted to know what I was doing in the room.

I explained to he that it was not her room and not the SSG's room, it was my room. I also told her that if she saw him before I did to tell him I wanted to see him in my office.

Just another "chat" in my office.

Pete

[x SF med]

Now that brings up the time I was going through "my" barracks checking "my" rooms one afternoon.

I went into one young Staff Sergeant's room and a naked young lady waked out of the bathroom. She of course gave a little scream and jumped behind a wall locker door. She wanted to know what I was doing in the room.

I explained to he that it was not her room and not the SSG's room, it was my room. I also told her that if she saw him before I did to tell him I wanted to see him in my office.

Just another "chat" in my office.

Pete

Why did the Perry Mason "da, dah, dah, dum" just play in my head - oh, yeah - getting called to task by Team Daddy or Smash myself one or two (okay, a few) times - for various deficiencies/issues/women. the best times were when you got laughed at, not verbally bounced off a locker.

[TAN2GREEN]

In reference to reporting to SFQC how far out should you recieve orders if you report to PLDC/BNCOC in the Nov class?
TAN-

[doc22584]

In reference to reporting to SFQC how far out should you recieve orders if you report to PLDC/BNCOC in the Nov class?
TAN-

According to the transition/levy people here at my unit you get them 60 days out, so you should either have yours already or they should be on there way.

[The Reaper]

In reference to reporting to SFQC how far out should you recieve orders if you report to PLDC/BNCOC in the Nov class?
TAN-

T2G, please fill out your profile more fully if you are going to be posting.

TR

[BoyScout]

X SF MED: That was not Jason. That was Odysseus. Jason did the lecture on various metalic wool garments. :D

Is being comfortible in more that one style of swimming important or should one built endurance first?

[x SF med]

That was not Jason. That was Odysseus. Jason did the lecture on various metalic wool garments. :D

My bad - you are correct - Odysseus did the Sirens, Jason did the Gold Wool drysuit lecture, imagine the BC you'd need with that, including not burping the suit.

The answer to your other question is - Yes. You can switch swimming styles during the course of your swim, as long as you just keep going,and going, and going.....

[BoyScout]

Thank you X SF Med.
This reminds me that I need to swim more.

[deanwells]

I know a few guys who were required to take the 2 week swim course. They went at it everyday and still came out weak swimmers. Listen to everyone here who is telling you to start now. Go to your local YMCA and see if they offer swim classes for beginners. You are able to make the minimum 50M now, but what will you do when you show up to a dive team? Drown? The swim lessons will help you with your technique. Technique in the water is the most important thing to have. Good luck in your future career.

DOL

[12B4S]

deanwells, (and the rest of you folks.)

In regard to these swim classes, that I keep seeing mentioned. Two or so weeks seems to be the average length of said course. Besides the fact, that is nowhere near ENOUGH. What are these swim lessons or training all about? Is it all pool, maybe an open water swim, once or twice? If there is any open water training, where? Lake, pond, quarry, ocean, river? What is taught in these classes? How to do the perfect Australian crawl? The perfect breast stroke? I was on the HS and college swim team. I never used that stuff while I was in SF or when I worked as a commercial diver. Just wondering. Any training or practice best include negotiating heavy surf, waves or swells. Day or night. There may also be times the Dry and or Wet suit is not available. Usually that means you get to freeze your ass off. Best get the infil done quickly in the cold water. ;) Then there are the currents and tides in any given location in one's AO. There is a reason for not trying a swim infil against a one knot current. It can be done by strong swimmers, but it's on the edge of the envelope. Add cold water and perhaps no rubber 'Dr Dentons' it gets a tad tougher.

Like anything else. It merely comes down to the MIND. Some can ruck, some can run, some can swim....... forever. Why? Is there some obscure reason, some mental thang that holds people back from being able to all of it? Hmmmmm.... That may have been one of those rhetorical questions. ;)

I would also suggest to any of you folks headed to SF........ take a SCUBA course............. :cool:

[The Reaper]

Consider this.

The team can only move as fast as the slowest guy. They can only ruck at the pace of the last man. If required to run, they can only beat feet at the pace of the slowest runner. When swimming, while you can, as noted, be towed along on a Budweiser line, who wants to be the sea anchor holding the team back? How would you feel if you failed in your mission, or lost teammates because you couldn't keep up? In case you missed it, this ain't tiddleywinks we are playing, the bullets are real in this game.

While we all have our strengths and weaknesses, we cannot all be the best on the team at everything. At the same time, you do not want to be the worst on the team at anything. I am not saying that we should strive for mediocrity, but if you are not the slowest member, you are probably not slowing the team down and are able to help the ones who are. Anything that you are the worst at, you should be working on it to improve, constantly. Complacency will get you killed.

When I first arrived on an ODA, the Team Sergeant told me that Tuesdays were swim days, meet at Lee Pool when it opened at 0600. Now I am not a strong swimmer, I prefer to do most of my swimming with a nice cold drink waiting poolside. I was worried about my ability to keep up. We got into the pool to do 1500 meters and I soon noticed that my teammates were finishing up and leaving well before I was done. When I got out of the pool, the Team Sergeant was the only one not yet done and still had a long way to go to finish, but he was doing his best. I expected that he would soon decide that we could find something else to do on Tuesday mornings, but he kept insisting that we swim on Tuesdays, even though we were a HALO team. He never quit working on it, frequently on his own time, because he considered himself to be in need of improvement. He never let the fact that it was very obvious that he was the slowest deter him from practicing regularly. He made all of us better, because he was more concerned for the team than he was for his personal comfort or avoiding possible embarrassment. By the time he left, the team had shaved several minutes off of our mile swim times, despite the fact that it was not our primary infil method. The entire team (including the TS) could finish the swim in about the same amount of time that it took for the average guy when we started going to the pool. And the TS taught me a valuable lesson.

Bottom line, it shouldn't be about you, if it is, there is a problem. It is about the team and how you can make it better. Think about it.

TR

[Surgicalcric]

Thank you for that post Sir.

Very inspiring.

Crip

[doc22584]

Consider this.

The team can only move as fast as the slowest guy. They can only ruck at the pace of the last man. If required to run, they can only beat feet at the pace of the slowest runner. When swimming, while you can, as noted, be towed along on a Budweiser line, who wants to be the sea anchor holding the team back? How would you feel if you failed in your mission, or lost teammates because you couldn't keep up? In case you missed it, this ain't tiddleywinks we are playing, the bullets are real in this game.

While we all have our strengths and weaknesses, we cannot all be the best on the team at everything. At the same time, you do not want to be the worst on the team at anything. I am not saying that we should strive for mediocrity, but if you are not the slowest member, you are probably not slowing the team down and are able to help the ones who are. Anything that you are the worst at, you should be working on it to improve, constantly. Complacency will get you killed.

When I first arrived on an ODA, the Team Sergeant told me that Tuesdays were swim days, meet at Lee Pool when it opened at 0600. Now I am not a strong swimmer, I prefer to do most of my swimming with a nice cold drink waiting poolside. I was worried about my ability to keep up. We got into the pool to do 1500 meters and I soon noticed that my teammates were finishing up and leaving well before I was done. When I got out of the pool, the Team Sergeant was the only one not yet done and still had a long way to go to finish, but he was doing his best. I expected that he would soon decide that we could find something else to do on Tuesday mornings, but he kept insisting that we swim on Tuesdays, even though we were a HALO team. He never quit working on it, frequently on his own time, because he considered himself to be in need of improvement. He never let the fact that it was very obvious that he was the slowest deter him from practicing regularly. He made all of us better, because he was more concerned for the team than he was for his personal comfort or avoiding possible embarrassment. By the time he left, the team had shaved several minutes off of our mile swim times, despite the fact that it was not our primary infil method. The entire team (including the TS) could finish the swim in about the same amount of time that it took for the average guy when we started going to the pool. And the TS taught me a valuable lesson.

Bottom line, it shouldn't be about you, if it is, there is a problem. It is about the team and how you can make it better. Think about it.

TR


I totally understand what your saying about it being about the team sir. I dont want to be the slow guy holding everybody back. Ive been practicing and i will continue to practice until i'm extremely proficient, and even then ill continue to practice

[deanwells]

Consider this.

The team can only move as fast as the slowest guy. They can only ruck at the pace of the last man. If required to run, they can only beat feet at the pace of the slowest runner. When swimming, while you can, as noted, be towed along on a Budweiser line, who wants to be the sea anchor holding the team back? How would you feel if you failed in your mission, or lost teammates because you couldn't keep up? In case you missed it, this ain't tiddleywinks we are playing, the bullets are real in this game.

While we all have our strengths and weaknesses, we cannot all be the best on the team at everything. At the same time, you do not want to be the worst on the team at anything. I am not saying that we should strive for mediocrity, but if you are not the slowest member, you are probably not slowing the team down and are able to help the ones who are. Anything that you are the worst at, you should be working on it to improve, constantly. Complacency will get you killed.

When I first arrived on an ODA, the Team Sergeant told me that Tuesdays were swim days, meet at Lee Pool when it opened at 0600. Now I am not a strong swimmer, I prefer to do most of my swimming with a nice cold drink waiting poolside. I was worried about my ability to keep up. We got into the pool to do 1500 meters and I soon noticed that my teammates were finishing up and leaving well before I was done. When I got out of the pool, the Team Sergeant was the only one not yet done and still had a long way to go to finish, but he was doing his best. I expected that he would soon decide that we could find something else to do on Tuesday mornings, but he kept insisting that we swim on Tuesdays, even though we were a HALO team. He never quit working on it, frequently on his own time, because he considered himself to be in need of improvement. He never let the fact that it was very obvious that he was the slowest deter him from practicing regularly. He made all of us better, because he was more concerned for the team than he was for his personal comfort or avoiding possible embarrassment. By the time he left, the team had shaved several minutes off of our mile swim times, despite the fact that it was not our primary infil method. The entire team (including the TS) could finish the swim in about the same amount of time that it took for the average guy when we started going to the pool. And the TS taught me a valuable lesson.

Bottom line, it shouldn't be about you, if it is, there is a problem. It is about the team and how you can make it better. Think about it.

TR

Roger that. Thanks for putting this out there.

DOL

[Slantwire]

I would also suggest to any of you folks headed to SF........ take a SCUBA course............. :cool:

I've taken the conservative approach and NOT gone diving recently - don't want to fall on the wrong side of the statistics and get bent before attempting the pipeline. My gear is in the attic and it bugs me that I don't get to play with it. :(

Oh well, I guess I just gotta go PT more on the surface. I have no doubt that cadre all along the road will find interesting things for me to do.

[TAN2GREEN]

Good afternoon Gentlemen,
I had a question concerning the Q Course. During the time of the Course do they conduct promotion boards in between phases? Basically, can you be promoted during the course? Thank you all for the time,
Respectfully

TAN

[x SF med]

T2G-
I think that's covered elsewhere, Use the search button. Even if it's not, this thread is not an appropriate place to ask. How does promotion have anything to do with swimming and swim levels. Poor SA, -10. Drop and push, and when your arms fall off, then roll over and do flutterkicks until you move across the room.

[TAN2GREEN]

Gents,
Apologize for posting the wrong area, I'm kinda new. I appreciate the heads up.
T2G

[kachingchingpow]

Doc, I'm sure you're getting your mind right by now, but I thought I would offer up one more suggestion. Get comfortable swimming, then find a YMCA with a well run basic lifesaving course. Make sure you check out the program first, because they're all run a little differently. Some are pretty lame on the physical conditioning side. The course that I took prior to enlisting was run by a retired Navy spec ops guy (I never had the nads to ask what he did or was assigned to, he would've made me tread water for 30 minutes just for looking at him). We swam our tails off. They're typically 8week classes 3 nights/week for 2 hrs. Each of our classes started by arriving early and treading water... started with 10 minutes, by the 6th week rolled around we had to tread for 30. We would then swim every conceavable lifesaving stroke up and down each lane of the 12 lane olympic sized pool, before being "taught" anything. Besides the conditioning, you're going to get the basic stuff you need to help someone, or even yourself if the situation arises. You'll also get to do some survival swimming with clothes and shoes on. Personally, I did it so that I could lifeguard (and reap all of the perceived benefits ;) ), but later realized that the course very much prepared me for any swimming I ever did while I was in.

[x SF med]

KCCP-
Basic lifesaving (level 1 lifeguard, pool lifeguard) requires the applicant to be able to swim 500m in a given time period, something like 12-15 minutes, if I rermember correctly ( I did level 1, level 2, and level 3-ocean, plus was a competitive swimmer prior to enlisting) - if a person is a weak swimmer, they just wasted the course fee by failing the initial test.

We are trying to get these guys ready to get ready - the opportunity to fail is already inherent in SFAS and the Q - why compound it by having them waste money.

Guys, find a buddy who is a strong swimmer, and have him work with you, it's a much better idea than taking a lifesaving course that alread yassumes you are a very strong swimmer.

Now back to you KCCP -
1. no SA -10
2. no idea what you are talking about -15
3. giving advice that should come from BTDT / QPs -20

So until you have completed the Q, or at least made it through most of the Q - shut the hell up about the training, ok? Sorry you got MD'd 4 months in to the Q, but you never got qual'd. The people giving advice here all have qualified Team time, and know what it's like to have buddies who are weak swimmers initially, and most of us have helped buddies, Teammates get ready for SF MarOps - you have not.

you owe 5,000 pushups and 23,000 flutter kicks - get started.

[cordobian]

deanwells, (and the rest of you folks.)

....What is taught in these classes? How to do the perfect Australian crawl? The perfect breast stroke? I was on the HS and college swim team. I never used that stuff while I was in SF or when I worked as a commercial diver. .........
I would also suggest to any of you folks headed to SF........ take a SCUBA course............. :cool:

12B4S, and other QPs,

Could you tell me what stroke(s) you implemented to navigate long distances while in full "battle rattle"?

Thanks for your time,

Cordobian

[82ndtrooper]

I remember being with the 82nd ABN and witnessing some guy's with the SF command or SFAS preps in the pool at the gym at Ardennes road. With fins mask and snorkel, and weight belts they were practically drowning those guy's in the pool !!!:eek:

I remember someone saying they were about to go the CDQC at Key West, Florida.



Not something I'd want to have experienced during my active duty. :eek:

[Pete]

12B4S, and other QPs,

Could you tell me what stroke(s) you implemented to navigate long distances while in full "battle rattle"?

Thanks for your time,

Cordobian

"Long Distances" means many things to different people. If you are talking something in the range of swim tests with equipment then it is something of a cross between a breast stroke and the side stroke. Pulling/pushing down with the front arm, followed by a sideways frogish kick with the legs. The "off" arm is holding the weapon or doing a small push stroke between the other two.

If you are doing the swim test in a regular pool and are tall you'll need to be able to dog paddle in the shallow end. TACs love to spot that bottom toe "helping" with a little push now and then off the bottom of the pool.

Again "Practice, Pratice and then more Practice".

Pete

Who thought any pool time was relaxing.

[x SF med]

12B4S, and other QPs,

Could you tell me what stroke(s) you implemented to navigate long distances while in full "battle rattle"?

Thanks for your time,

Cordobian

Seconding the SGM, What do you consider long distance? A 500m river crossing? A 5Km surface swim or longer? You adapt to the mission - if it's a MarOPs infil - well, fin up and you better not have slacked on your flutterkicks, and have done some deep water ruck pulling. If it's a river, well, your stuff better be packed tight and you better know how to swim with your stuff on - I'd lose ballistic vests, unless you are a monster swimmer, or it's a shallow cross.

Also- I have yet to see anybody swim in full (current) battle-rattle - can you say blub,blub,blub? Unless of course you are wearing 2 inflated BCs...

[cordobian]

Seconding the SGM, What do you consider long distance? A 500m river crossing? A 5Km surface swim or longer?.....

"At Amara, the Tigris is only 600 feet wide with a depth ranging from a normal 6½ feet to 13 feet when flooding." (From
http://baghdadtreasure.blogspot.com/2005/09/tigris-soul-of-baghdad.html) I realize that it is likely that few servicemembers will intentionally try to cross rivers or canals in Iraq, but it would be nice to know to how to survive such distances in order to prevent the death of future servicemen.


....If it's a river, well, your stuff better be packed tight and you better know how to swim with your stuff on - I'd lose ballistic vests, unless you are a monster swimmer, or it's a shallow cross.

Suprisingly, according to http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/may2006/a051906pc1.html, "the Kevlar inside of the interceptor body armor system will float and support the weight of the soldier."

Also- I have yet to see anybody swim in full (current) battle-rattle - can you say blub,blub,blub? Unless of course you are wearing 2 inflated BCs...

To what extent would you remove your gear if you were overpowered by a current while crossing a river during a "live" mission?

Thanks for your time,

Robert

[Pete]

...Suprisingly, according to http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/may2006/a051906pc1.html, "the Kevlar inside of the interceptor body armor system will float and support the weight of the soldier."



To what extent would you remove your gear if you were overpowered by a current while crossing a river during a "live" mission?




Yes, body armor will float. I proved that in a pool to my B team Medic who was a weak swimmer. Will it float with plates and "your" full combat load and weapon while doing a river crossing at night? Don't know. Try it and get back to us.

Heavy as a rucksack is, it is hard to sink quickly. The darn thing floats so high it is a bit hard to hang onto without twisting your neck all out of joint. A little work with waterproof bags and plastic bags and you can go a long ways with one of them. SCUBA teams had a hard time getting rucks to sink for subsurface swims. That critter is heavy and it's a bear to pick up and move off the beach.

If you drop your gear you have no mission.

Pete

[The Reaper]

Suprisingly, according to http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/may2006/a051906pc1.html, "the Kevlar inside of the interceptor body armor system will float and support the weight of the soldier."

The soft Kevlar armor will float.

Once you add the plates, it will not, nor will anyone wearing it.

Add another 30 pounds of weapons and ammo (minimum) and you are definitely a sinker.

To what extent would you remove your gear if you were overpowered by a current while crossing a river during a "live" mission?

Just before you go under for the last time. If you do not have to be resuscitated, you probably dumped it too soon.

TR

[deanwells]

If you had a large interceptor vest with medium plates....You maybe be able to stay afloat if enough air gets into the excess room, but I don't recommend gear that doesn't fit exact to you. Also if you have a lot of waterproofed bags that have not been compressed down like cryo-vac it's possible but I wouldn't try it personally. As for your gear being dumped, drop all the unnecessary stuff and keep only the mission essential equipment. If that's all you got, well.....you better swim hard and get to one side or the other:lifter . Don't panic or it's game over!!!

Just my 2 copper colored coins,

DW

[frostfire]

I've been working on improving my strokes. I also work on holding my breath, which has gotten to 3:06.19.

Thought I'd share the (free) resources that I used in addition to advices from collegiate swimmer, coach, triathlon competitor and one PJ.
Youtube has gotten more and more self-taught material ranging from proper Japanese pronunciation to swimming lesson.
The few that I use (all copy and paste):

Combat side stroke and 50m underwater swim
youtube.com/watch?v=4lUHudMN1TU
youtube.com/watch?v=6CM4vCf5rJA
youtube.com/watch?v=wSxdkuyIYW4

Arm recovery drills and tips
youtube.com/watch?v=IQJtcu5ZP84
youtube.com/watch?v=i-NE8_1OG3w

Total immersion/triathlon swimming technique
youtube.com/watch?v=KOun77ezffk
youtube.com/user/tiswim

Eggbeater & drownproofing
youtube.com/watch?v=lJpDiLynBp8
youtube.com/watch?v=Zf-3UTGppv4 (ignore the music)

Also this thread
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1318

Note that none of these are substitute for hard work & never-quit attitude. They are just ways to train smarter. As strokes get more efficient, there's less fatigue, longer swim range, and so on.

[x SF med]

Frostfire-
Why do you need to hold your breath for 3 minutes? And why on earth are you practicing? As you get in better shape your VO2 max is going to increase no matter what, and being able to hold your breath is a function of O2 saturation vs. CO2 saturation and transfer. In other words, if you are in good shape you should be able to hold your breath longer. I'm no spring chicken and not in the shape I once was, but can still swim 3 - 4 x25m underwater... that would be a much better test than a static breaqth holding contest.

just my .02, YMMV

Shut up Kyo, even all the way across the country I can hear your brain grinding about the no spring chicken comment above (TR's ready to jump in too).

[Team Sergeant]

Frostfire, listen to x SF med, he knows things.

Team Sergeant

[Kyobanim]

Shut up Kyo, even all the way across the country I can hear your brain grinding about the no spring chicken comment above

I didn't say anything, but, um, don't you think that porno troll needs to go?

[frostfire]

Roger, TS.

Thank you for sharing the info, x_SF_med. I should have realized this if I had put my A&P and athletic training material to practice. Diamond push-ups in progress for punishment.

This may be laughable and an example of transition from hard ass to dumb ass, but I practice holding breath for the following reasons:
- Something I've done since I was small. It's as if I'm testing how strong the power of the will to overcome the nature (the point where you expand/contract the lung w/o air exchange). In a way....training the mind:o ?
- No scientific base for this one but personal experience, so placebo could be a factor. The higher my tolerance to discomfort induced by lack of air/O2, the longer my natural respiratory pause. That had greatly helped me in HP prone rapid fire w/ whole belly & chest touching the ground.
- I was hoping/believing it would help my underwater swimming.

but can still swim 3 - 4 x25m underwater... that would be a much better test than a static breaqth holding contest.
:eek: :eek: wow, were you in competitive swimming? With all I got, I still struggle getting 2x25m

[frostfire]

I'm no spring chicken ...
Shut up Kyo, even all the way across the country I can hear your brain grinding about the no spring chicken comment above (TR's ready to jump in too).Please ignore if this is an inside joke.
I am scratching my head too on the relevance of spring chicken. In Charlotte's Web, there's a spring pig; pig born in spring that normally won't see snow since it'll be pork/ham on x'mas table in Fall. Well, so spring chicken is a chicken born in spring that :confused: huh?

[Ambush Master]

Please ignore if this is an inside joke.
I am scratching my head too on the relevance of spring chicken. In Charlotte's Web, there's a spring pig; pig born in spring that normally won't see snow since it'll be pork/ham on x'mas table in Fall. Well, so spring chicken is a chicken born in spring that :confused: huh?

The relative relevance of this is relatively lacking!!!

As far as traversing semi-deep water while wearing equipment..what happened to the tried and proven: "Bob And Travel"!!! It worked at Normandy!!!