Shooting Drills

[NousDefionsDoc]

Let's talk shooting drills. On another thread, I mentioned a drill we do. I call it the "Buddha how many more in the box!" Drill

You load 2-3 rounds in a buttload of mags and put them in a box. The shooter stands ready and the helper kneels down on his weak side. The shooter will engage and combat reload. Over and over again. As he empties the mag pouch, the helper will replace the mags until all are done. Change over and repeat.

Don't try to pick up the empties until the weapon is safe and holsterd and don't go forward of the shooter at any time. Doesn't work real well with chest mounted pistol mags.

Also - you need to have the basics of the combat reload down before you try this. You will need to dry fire it about 10,000 trillion times prior. It is a waste of ammo IMO to do the exercise before.

Oh - and as always, marksmanship counts...;)

[NousDefionsDoc]

One thing I think is important - don't get in the habit of shooting one or two then transitioning for no reason or safetying and holstering after two every time. If you transition, you should either be dry or have a malfunction - both can be purposely introduced.

When you go to your secondary, you should vary the number of rounds you use before going back to the primary. Shoot two sometimes, more others. Every now and then, shoot it dry and combat reload.

You can use snap caps to introducce a malfunction - just have somebody else load it or do it with your eyes closed so you don't anticipate.

Grossman touches on the reasons for avoiding habitually doing the same things in On Combat. I just started it, not bad. Most of the recommendations he has so far we were doing insticitively.

Another thing I like is sliding to the side to transition or reload. Any ideas why?

Remember - you will revert to training when stressed. So train like you want to fight.

Anybody else?

[NousDefionsDoc]

On a related by different topic - anybody know where I can find the Wheel of Errors for Left-handed shooters on the net?

[The Reaper]

Another thing I like is sliding to the side to transition or reload. Any ideas why?

Remember - you will revert to training when stressed. So train like you want to fight.

Anybody else?

To get off the target line.

We teach students to move at least one step laterally between strings and to continue scanning from side to side.

TR

[Roguish Lawyer]

V&P?

[NousDefionsDoc]

To get off the target line.

We teach students to move at least one step laterally between strings and to continue scanning from side to side.

TR
Roger Sir. I was thinking more specifically about the other guy's reaction to stress.;) - and baiting a trap for your Samoan attorney.:)

[NousDefionsDoc]

V&P?
A&W?

[Roguish Lawyer]

Vivo y pendejo or, for those not in 7th Group, ball and dummy drill.

Load magazine with live rounds and a randomly placed snap cap. Engage target with slow aimed fire.

It's the only drill I have been taught.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Ah, Ball and Dummy. One of my favorites. Best first drill (I won't say warm up, I don't know what the TS has told you...and I'm a little scared of him:) ) ever.

I wasn't expecting Spanish from you.

Tell us more - what is the purpose of the drill? Pitfalls? Safety considerations?

[Ambush Master]

Who's heard of this?!?!

[NousDefionsDoc]

Come on now, don't be shy...:D

While we wait, a question - when should you conduct pistol exercises from a drawn position (low ready, Sabrina [RL before the TS started training him], high ready) etc.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Ah, Ball and Dummy. One of my favorites. Best first drill (I won't say warm up, I don't know what the TS has told you...and I'm a little scared of him:) ) ever.

I wasn't expecting Spanish from you.

Tell us more - what is the purpose of the drill? Pitfalls? Safety considerations?

I think you have forgotten a thread from a while back where you taught me the term "Vivo y Pendejo."

My understanding of the purpose of the drill is to teach the shooter not to anticipate recoil and jerk the trigger. The shooter learns to squeeze the trigger smoothly because, when you hit the snap cap, you feel like a complete idiot if you jerked the trigger. I find that it is extremely helpful in this respect.

There may be other purposes or benefits of the drill of which I am not aware. I am not aware of any pitfalls or safety considerations at this time.

:munchin

[vsvo]

On a related by different topic - anybody know where I can find the Wheel of Errors for Left-handed shooters on the net?

How about this (http://www.sportshooter.com/images/correctionchart_lefthanded.gif)?

Great thread, NDD.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I didn't forget, I just wasn't anticipating Spanish from you - my bad, but the bunny stays.;)

I would say ball and dummy done properly trains the all 8 fundamentals of marksmanship. That is one of the reasons it is on the "Most Excellent Drills" list in my Magic Field binder.

Besides looking like an idiot on the snap cap - you will miss on the live round if you don't apply the fundamentals. So you get the best of both worlds and in that sense, it is better than dry fire, which is my next favorite way to work.

[NousDefionsDoc]

How about this (http://www.sportshooter.com/images/correctionchart_lefthanded.gif)?

Great thread, NDD.
That's it! Dude you are Da Man!.

And thanks for the kind words.

[Roguish Lawyer]

What are the 8 fundamentals of marksmanship?

[Ambush Master]

What are the 8 fundamentals of marksmanship?

Ruh-Ro!!!:D

[Cincinnatus]

Other purposes = to simulate malfunctions and train in malf clearance and to trigger a transition to another weapon.

Two drills I like.

The "Busy Hands Drill" where you start with a cup in your hand, or a shopping bag, or a satchel over your shoulder, and then drop the cup/ bag/ satchel, draw and fire.

"BG and Buddies Drill" set up two or three targets at different distances. One can be almost contact distance. Draw and fire at closest target and then more distant targets. Move to line up BGs, so they'd have to shoot through the other to get you.

[Cincinnatus]

I gotta learn to type faster. There were five replies while I was typing my last.:eek:

[Roguish Lawyer]

Ruh-Ro!!!:D

If you google "fundamentals of marksmanship," you get lots of different lists with different numbers of fundamentals. Sorry if I am being ignorant (I am), but I would like to know what is on NDD's list. Just trying to learn! :munchin

[Ambush Master]

Who's heard of this?!?!

OK!!

It is when you are in a Target Rich Environment, with Multiple Targets Presented. Everyone gets served once, before anyone gets seconds!!

With full auto weapons, it is much easier to get multiples on each threat, but with a pistol, you're needing to get as many guns "Out of the fight" as fast as possible.

Later
Martin

[Cincinnatus]

If you've got a training buddy, you can have a lot of fun with variations on the "BG and Buddies Drill", we used to make hoods from grocery bags (the brown paper ones), cutting half circles on the sides and duct taping the edges so that they's stay put on one's shoulders. You put on the hood, your buddy arranges targets, taping "knives" and "guns" to some. He then comes back, turns you around a few times and lifts off the hood.

You now have to orient yourself to the targets, shoot them in order of threat, and not shoot any that aren't "armed". Fun for the whole family.

[NousDefionsDoc]

1. Stance
2. Grip
3. Sight Alignment
4. Sight Picture
5. Trigger control
6. Breathing
7. Recovery
8. Follow-through

[Roguish Lawyer]

Thanks, doc.

[Cincinnatus]

Another really useful, and kinda fun thing to do, though not really a drill, I guess, is knock down targets.

Take a 4"x4" and cut it an inch shorter than the height of an IPSC or IDPA cardboard target. Wrap the 4"x4" in duct tape. Staple the cardboard target to the 4"x4" such that it runs down the middle of the target ending an inch from the bottom. Staple a second target to the back of the 4"x4". If you've done this right, it will now stand upright with the bottome edges of the targets serving as sort of runners and the 4"x4" roughly simulating the vitals.

Make a waist high pedestal using another length of 4"x4" and a couple of pieces of plywood. The pedestal should stand on it's own and be fairly stable.

Set the top of the torso, the targets stapled to the 4"x4", on top of the pedestal.

Hits to the "vitals" will topple the torso. Poor hits will pass right on through. This is a great way to condition "shooting to stop." If the target hasn't gone down it's still a threat.

[Gene Econ]

What are the 8 fundamentals of marksmanship?

RL:

Not being a wise guy here so please -- no law suits.

The eight fundamentals went out of use about twenty years ago. Thank God. SFAUC still uses them and the results are evident. No one knows which one of the eight he needs to work on to be better, and no one can do eight things perfectly at once.

Today there are only four fundamentals by Army doctrine -- about two or three too many IMHO.

I use two or maybe one for some folks. Fire the shot when the barrel is pointed into the middle of the target. It works pretty well in fact and there is little confusion about cause if shots go astray. Either the pointing or the pulling of the trigger is the culprit.

Pointing can be a vision issue or a zero issue. Trigger pull is a human issue.

I have tried to write a three hundred page manual on shooting but can't seem to get past one sentence. 'Train the eyes to see and the finger to move. '

Gene

[The Reaper]

'Train the eyes to see and the finger to move.'

Gene

You are a Zen Master, Yoda Gene.

That is the most succinct summation of marksmanship that I have ever read.

TR

[Roguish Lawyer]

Gene, what drills do you recommend for novice shooters?

[NousDefionsDoc]

RL:

Not being a wise guy here so please -- no law suits.

The eight fundamentals went out of use about twenty years ago. Thank God. SFAUC still uses them and the results are evident. No one knows which one of the eight he needs to work on to be better, and no one can do eight things perfectly at once.

Today there are only four fundamentals by Army doctrine -- about two or three too many IMHO.

I use two or maybe one for some folks. Fire the shot when the barrel is pointed into the middle of the target. It works pretty well in fact and there is little confusion about cause if shots go astray. Either the pointing or the pulling of the trigger is the culprit.

Pointing can be a vision issue or a zero issue. Trigger pull is a human issue.

I have tried to write a three hundred page manual on shooting but can't seem to get past one sentence. 'Train the eyes to see and the finger to move. '

Gene

Are you saying SFAUC guys can't shoot or I am mis-reading? I only know one, and he shoots very well.

We still use the 8 - to verying degrees depending on what we are doing. For example, I don't worry about breathing when I'm hammering.

I disagree about not being able to do 8 things at once - not at first of course, but eventually you don't have to think about them anymore. They have to become ingrained, but they are still there.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Gene, what drills do you recommend for novice shooters?
Instructor Slut!

[Roguish Lawyer]

Instructor Slut!

You mean whore, don't you? A whore will sleep with anyone, while a slut will sleep with anyone but you. :D

[NousDefionsDoc]

You mean whore, don't you? A whore will sleep with anyone, while a slut will sleep with anyone but you. :D
Are you getting paid?

[Roguish Lawyer]

Are you getting paid?

I wasn't expecting cross-examination from you. LOL

C'mon, that's funny stuff.

[HOLLiS]

Me thinketh sometimes the brain is the impediment.

[Smokin Joe]

Me thinketh sometimes the brain is the impediment.

Yup, like over thinking / anticipating the shot.

Oh BTW Out-friggin-standing thread NDD!

[jatx]

How about this (http://www.sportshooter.com/images/correctionchart_lefthanded.gif)?

Great thread, NDD.

I am right-handed, so I'm assuming that the mirror image of this chart is what I need. Which suggests that I am jerking the trigger. At 7-10 yds, my shots are usually in a tight group about 1.5-2" low and to the left of the bullseye.

How can I correct this? :munchin

[Team Sergeant]

On a related by different topic - anybody know where I can find the Wheel of Errors for Left-handed shooters on the net?


The wheel is also history.

RL, I didn't teach you all 8 factors because I don't believe they are needed for pistol marksmanship. You can shoot bullet holes through holes on demand, you think you're lacking some sort of training?:rolleyes:

NDD,
Your drills sound good, I'll add, start SLOW, VERY SLOW. Learn the movements so well you can do them blind folded, in your sleep, time and time again. Work up to speed, work hard on smooth actions not jerky. This is the reason for 10,000 times. For the novice shooters it must be done correctly because doing it 10,000 times wrong is hard to break;)

TS

[Team Sergeant]

I am right-handed, so I'm assuming that the mirror image of this chart is what I need. Which suggests that I am jerking the trigger. At 7-10 yds, my shots are usually in a tight group about 1.5-2" low and to the left of the bullseye.

How can I correct this? :munchin


Quit jerking like a three year old.:rolleyes:

The wheel is not a valid tool anymore.

If you can place a good shot on the bullseye and then you have a group "1.5-2" low and to the left of the bullseye" you have a "controlled jerk". (You will not find the term "controlled jerk" anywhere, I made it up.)

Dryfire 5 minutes everyday, with snapcaps, in a safe place. 5 minutes, everyday. Do it for a month then go to 10 minutes everyday for a month. Then go shooting again. I'll send you a bill.

TS

[lksteve]

How about this (http://www.sportshooter.com/images/correctionchart_lefthanded.gif)?

thanks...

[lksteve]

The wheel is not a valid tool anymore.why not...?

[jatx]

Quit jerking like a three year old.:rolleyes:

The wheel is not a valid tool anymore.

If you can place a good shot on the bullseye and then you have a group "1.5-2" low and to the left of the bullseye" you have a "controlled jerk". (You will not find the term "controlled jerk" anywhere, I made it up.)

Dryfire 5 minutes everyday, with snapcaps, in a safe place. 5 minutes, everyday. Do it for a month then go to 10 minutes everyday for a month. Then go shooting again. I'll send you a bill.

TS

Okay, what are the best dry fire drills? Also, are there any visualization exercises that you'd recommend?

Thank you.

[Polar Bear]

How about this (http://www.sportshooter.com/images/correctionchart_lefthanded.gif)?

Great thread, NDD.

NDD also try here, about halfway down the page. They are in PDF format.

http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf.html

I am just a novice and tried to use the wheel, it did not work real well. I finailly found someone who was very good and had them watch me. With in 20 rounds my groupings got a whole lot tighter.

[Peregrino]

why not...?


It was developed to aid in teaching "target style" shooting - e.g. blade stance, one hand, unsupported. It is still a valuable tool in that environment. Unfortunately it can't take into account/doesn't accurately reflect the influences of the modern two-handed aggressive combat stances. That and "progressive" teaching methods don't start out shooting bullseyes at 25 yds on a flat range. Modern methods are designed to quickly produce competent combat shooters capable of accurately/effectively engaging threats within the most probable ranges - depending on source of information usually listed as 7-15 feet out to 7-15 meters. It's effective (translate to read - it's quicker and cheaper than the traditional methods). (The merits of which are a debate better held over a pitcher of whatever you're paying for.) FWIW - Peregrino

[Kyobanim]

Way outside my lane here but had to comment on this: Your drills sound good, I'll add, start SLOW, VERY SLOW. Learn the movements so well you can do them blind folded, in your sleep, time and time again. Work up to speed, work hard on smooth actions not jerky. This is the reason for 10,000 times. For the novice shooters it must be done correctly because doing it 10,000 times wrong is hard to break

Dead right. Learn the proper technique; as slow as necessary but learn it correctly. The speed will come later. That's muscle memory for you. This works for anything.

[The Reaper]

Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

As in racing, slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. Get the mechanics and the moves down perfectly first.

Speed is fine, accuracy is final.

When in doubt, listen to your Team Sergeant.

TR

[Team Sergeant]

why not...?


OK, it was never a valid tool.

Most shooters do not possess the strength to shoot for hours; this is a huge factor when training individuals, to know when they have had enough. This is also an enormous factor when they start to miss and wonder why. 99.9% of the “instructors” I've watched have NEVER told anyone "you’re tired" and that's why you are throwing shots everywhere.
(Next time you teach or watch a group of twelve or so individuals shooting watch closely for 30 minutes. At about the 30 minute mark many will start to throw rounds everywhere.
(This does not apply if the students are “barrel chested freedom fighters”, competition shooters, or some SWAT teams. These individuals usually have the requisite upper body strength required to shoot for hours without a serious degradation of marksmanship.)

When I teach one of the first things I do to "students" is ask them to shake my hand and attempt to "crush" my hand. It’s not a test of "manlihood", I use it as a "gage" to check upper body strength and grip. It also tells me how long they will be able to shoot before fatigue starts to set in.

Something else I ask students, "who here is ready to run a marathon right now?"
Normally no one answers "I can". I then ask why? The answers usually are all the same, preparing for a marathon takes months of conditioning, hours of running per day, time to strengthen the legs, lungs, harden the mind etc. Then I tell them "so does shooting a pistol straight after 20 minutes."

Most individuals arms start to "fatigue" and "fail" after 20-30 minutes and there’s no way in hell they are going to have any semblance of accuracy left after this time. This is where the instructors I've watched make their biggest mistakes, trying to "fix" an individuals problem when, at that moment, it cannot be fixed. This is where I would make an educated guess that many instructors use the "wheel" to try to explain the individuals’ problem, when in fact all they need is rest.

I also ask how many times do they think Tiger Woods has "swung" his driver in order to become number one in the world? Want to be a great shooter, all one needs to do is put in the time. Learn how to do it right the first time and then its all about practice, conditioning etc.

There is more than one individual on this board that can place a pistol bullet through the same hole, not a shot group, the same hole at 5-7 meters. They know what it takes and they also know it takes practice, a lot of dry firing, and more practice to accomplish this feat all day long, every time.

Team Sergeant

[NousDefionsDoc]

LOL - you guys are killing me with all this "Old way doesn't work anymore". We can agree to disagree.

The wheel is not for the shooter, the wheel is a memory aid for the coach. The shooter should never be allowed to see it.;) It is also not all inclusive - for example: A right-handed shooter in a combat stance will shoot low left when he closes his off eye. But not every time. And not much. And only if he has his off foot forward.

TS and TR are right of course. The biggest mistakes most people make are going too fast and/or learning the skill poorly. Imperfect practice is worse than useless.

You posted while I was writing. I agree 100% about the being tired. I also agree most don't see it or recognize it as a factor. Excellent post.

[Team Sergeant]

LOL - you guys are killing me with all this "Old way doesn't work anymore". We can agree to disagree.

The wheel is not for the shooter, the wheel is a memory aid for the coach. The shooter should never be allowed to see it.;) It is also not all inclusive - for example: A right-handed shooter in a combat stance will shoot low left when he closes his off eye. But not every time. And not much. And only if he has his off foot forward.

TS and TR are right of course. The biggest mistakes most people make are going to fast and/or learning the skill poorly. Imperfect practice is worse than useless.

Right, that's it! 5-7 meters tightest 5 shot group, I'll use your weapon and only five rounds....... Be forewarned I had an SF Medic that bet me I could not beat his "best", he's still cutting my lawn.:D

It's also no longer taught in FM 3-23-35. A fairly good FM IMO. (All those that cannot hit the water if they fell off the boat need to read this manual.;))

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-23-35/index.html

[Team Sergeant]

NDD also try here, about halfway down the page. They are in PDF format.

http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf.html

I am just a novice and tried to use the wheel, it did not work real well. I finailly found someone who was very good and had them watch me. With in 20 rounds my groupings got a whole lot tighter.

PB, Great link.

OK lets discuss the Wheel, where would anyone like to start?

[NousDefionsDoc]

I said "Almost ready" Team Sergeant.;)

Yes, the FM is a good one, I refer to it frequently.

kgoerz and I are not only training students, we are developing Instructors. We had 28 students and 21 Instructors in the last class. At the same time. It was "intresting". We are always looking for graphic representations that will help them.

I rarely shoot tightest group, I probably should do it more. Most of our training focuses on a red circle (we use a Copenhagen can for a template) pasted where a tango's heart would be if they had one. From the holster with an M4 hanging in front. Oh, and eyes. I like eyes. Nice and squishy. If one of ours ever puts 5 in one hole, I'll slap him on his helmet, hang a shotgun and ram off of him and make him go faster.:lifter :D

[Roguish Lawyer]

we use a Copenhagen can for a template

Nice touch!

[lksteve]

(The merits of which are a debate better held over a pitcher of whatever you're paying for.) so what you are telling me is that somebody finds a crutch for a left handed guy online and now it's outdated...:D

actually, your point makes sense...as far as the quoted point, you show up in town and i'll buy a pitcher of whatever you're drinking...;)

[Peregrino]

so what you are telling me is that somebody finds a crutch for a left handed guy online and now it's outdated...:D

actually, your point makes sense...as far as the quoted point, you show up in town and i'll buy a pitcher of whatever you're drinking...;)


Ahhhh - no not really. I'm actually closer to NDDs opinion than I am to TS's. What we have here is a bunch of Type "A" (blind) personalities "describing the elephant". Everybody is right as far as they go but there is more to the picture than the effort of typing on the internet is worth. There are enough legitimate, high quality training tips already on this board to create an uber gunfighter if the aspirant can put it all together. (That's easier said than done.) The experts who have posted all have their strengths and their personal preferences. That's why I made the "pitcher" comment. I always learn something valuable in a bull session - and it's not always what I expected or even something I'm comfortable about.

FWIW - I'm left handed and I've been using the "wheel" (both versions) as a personal and coaching tool for 25+ years. Peregrino

[lksteve]

That's why I made the "pitcher" comment. I always learn something valuable in a bull session - and it's not always what I expected or even something I'm comfortable about.

FWIW - I'm left handed and I've been using the "wheel" (both versions) as a personal and coaching tool for 25+ years. Peregrinothis is the first i've seen of the wheel...i am interested in these techniques, although i need to find the time to try them...

many good points have been made here...i really don't see much i disagree with (having never tried the wheel before)...

i wholeheartedly agree that informal sessions among capable people can result in cross-fertilization and experimentation...i've also learned quite a bit at these sessions...

of course, one nice thing about the range at Bad Toelz is you could zero in the morning, fire a few tables for practice, have a pitcher with lunch at the Rod and Gun and not do too well at record fire in the afternoon...or at least i heard that...:D

[jbour13]

I rarely shoot tightest group, I probably should do it more. Most of our training focuses on a red circle (we use a Copenhagen can for a template) pasted where a tango's heart would be if they had one.

I like the lack of heart comment. :D

Good thread gents. I can use this for my classes, after the next deployment of course. ;)

[swatsurgeon]

I have the greatest respect for those of you that share knowledge of shooting skills and we all learn from your experience.
Points I learned from TS: (based on your level of 'expertise') and I use this in the operating room....its an analogy to the QPs and their honed shooting skills: slower is faster, efficiency breeds speed, speed alone leads to mistakes (and misses).
The most skilled surgeon that are 'fast' with the moves in the O.R. are not fast, just efficient, no wasted moves and this appears as speed when compared to the novice that performs 15 moves for my 3....NDD unconsciously has 7 of his 8 fundamentals hardwired, he may need to 'think' about only 1.
I'm sure you guys know the compentency stages of tasks:
- unconsciously incompetent
- consciously incompetent
- consciously competent
- unconsciously competent....this is where TS, NDD and others are speaking from.
Once you attain the zen (thank you TR), you have attained the level of unconsciously competent....it is without obvious thought that the task is completed correctly......forget 10,000 TS, more like > 100,000 ??

RL, I wrote down the TS's dry fire routine he gave me....I have to find it at home and I'll pass it along...it works.

ss

[NousDefionsDoc]

Excellent post Syd.

I was reviewing the competency stages last night.

I once saw, and can't remember what it was called "somebody's Law" or something similar about the number of experiences and how they relate to learning. kind of hard to explain.

Cincy - I saw a thread mentioning it once on TPI - do you know what i'm talking about?

[Roguish Lawyer]

Remember, looking good is half the fight, so if you look good on the video, you're probably ok.

You sure you weren't in 10th Group? Or the SEALs? :eek:

[Roguish Lawyer]

RL, I wrote down the TS's dry fire routine he gave me....I have to find it at home and I'll pass it along...it works.


Thanks, I didn't write it down, but I do it. Why don't you just post it so everyone can benefit?

[lksteve]

You sure you weren't in 10th Group? ahem...and remind me, Counsel, which group were you in????:rolleyes:

[Roguish Lawyer]

ahem...and remind me, Counsel, which group were you in????:rolleyes:

OK, I'll reel my neck in. :o

[NousDefionsDoc]

Wind. Wind - not reel.

[Gene Econ]

Are you saying SFAUC guys can't shoot or I am mis-reading? I only know one, and he shoots very well.

We still use the 8 - to verying degrees depending on what we are doing. For example, I don't worry about breathing when I'm hammering.

I disagree about not being able to do 8 things at once - not at first of course, but eventually you don't have to think about them anymore. They have to become ingrained, but they are still there.

NDD:

You probably have ingrained many of the eight factors so you no longer consciously attempt to do them. Although there is no way to know if you are doing all eight at once, one thing I can bet on is that you are firing the shot when the barrel is pointed into your target. You have conditioned your finger to move when your eyes see.

My comment on SFAUC trained guys wasn't clear. Sorry. Long and quite hot week with 18 medics on a firing range.

Many guys going to SFAUC have little experience in the type of consistent speed and precision demanded by this and other courses of its nature. They learn the eight steady hold factors in class then head to ranges to put them into practice. However, if you just put eight things into a guys head that he must do at one time to make a good shot -- he will take those eight things with him and consciously attempt to do all eight. This sets the stage for guys not achieving what ever goal they may have envisioned for themselves and thus causes a mental obstacle. Guys tend to work themselves out of these issues but why would anyone want to start them out at a disadvantage I often wonder?

I do focus on position but also realize that in most shooting situations, the guy won't be in a good firing position so he must have the confidence to rely on his ability to pull the trigger when he sees his barrel is pointed into the target.

Our limitation tends to end up being the issued rifle, ammunition (particularly), and sighting system more so than a huge amount of human error.

Again -- am tired but I hope this explains things from my perspective at least.

Gene

[NousDefionsDoc]

Roger Brother Gene, as usual we agree more than disagree.

I think you are absolutely correct in your analysis and will only offer this in response - yes, I no longer have to think about them - unless I miss. When I do miss, it is my fault and I can usually trace it back to one of The Eight. I don't know of another way to get to unconscious competence than starting from the beginning and working through The Eight until they can be applied without conscious thought. If you have suggestions, please, pleeease share.:)

Stance - I don't kick feet after the first 1 minute. In fact, I will make them change their stance (strong foot forward, feet parallel, etc.) to show them they shoot from the waist up and they don't have to worry about where their feet are. The Eight are relative - The Stance doesn't have to be a book stance, as long as you have a relatively stable platform - but you do have to have a Stance. Does that make sense? Good firing position to me means being able to engage from the best possible position for the situation. Not specific degrees and angles.

The ability to pull the trigger means to me the ability to pull the trigger correctly. When he sees the barrel pointing at the target means he sees the barrel by way of its component part the front sight.

Speed, efficiency, economy of motion and the combat application of The Eight - all of which I call elegance - can only come from hours of repetitions as far as I know. But in order to get good solid hits under stress time after time - consistency - the fundamentals have to be applied. To do it in a fight, they have to be applied unconsciously

Breathing is a good one. A lot of people say it doesn't apply in combat shooting. I agree it doesn't apply to the individual shot the way we do with sniper shots. But I do breath when shooting. And I try to get breath control taken care of outside. A couple of deep ones and then a rhythm. And then another big one when done for the moment.

SFAUC, SFARTEAC, no combat shooting school in the world will give one the level of competence of which we are talking. They will give one the basics. competence will only come from hours and hours of practice. With a coach where possible - alone if not. Shooting is an individual skill to me.

[Polar Bear]

NDD:

You probably have ingrained many of the eight factors so you no longer consciously attempt to do them. Although there is no way to know if you are doing all eight at once, one thing I can bet on is that you are firing the shot when the barrel is pointed into your target. You have conditioned your finger to move when your eyes see.

My comment on SFAUC trained guys wasn't clear. Sorry. Long and quite hot week with 18 medics on a firing range.

Many guys going to SFAUC have little experience in the type of consistent speed and precision demanded by this and other courses of its nature. They learn the eight steady hold factors in class then head to ranges to put them into practice. However, if you just put eight things into a guys head that he must do at one time to make a good shot -- he will take those eight things with him and consciously attempt to do all eight. This sets the stage for guys not achieving what ever goal they may have envisioned for themselves and thus causes a mental obstacle. Guys tend to work themselves out of these issues but why would anyone want to start them out at a disadvantage I often wonder?

I do focus on position but also realize that in most shooting situations, the guy won't be in a good firing position so he must have the confidence to rely on his ability to pull the trigger when he sees his barrel is pointed into the target.

Our limitation tends to end up being the issued rifle, ammunition (particularly), and sighting system more so than a huge amount of human error.

Again -- am tired but I hope this explains things from my perspective at least.

Gene

So are you saying that the eight principles can never be achieved or they must be taught in a broken down fashion until each one is mastered to be able to achieve the eight principles?

[NousDefionsDoc]

BTW Gene
Long and quite hot week with 18 medics on a firing range.
WTH? It will never get any easier....:cool:

[Gene Econ]

Gene, what drills do you recommend for novice shooters?

RL:

I simply can't offer much advice unless you can state your end state.

I do know this much -- no matter if you are shooting a MG or a pistol. Condition your finger to move when you eyes see a good sight picture.

Drills depend on the discipline you are entering, the time you have available, range conditions, and a bunch of other variables. Advice?

1. Determine the discipline you want to dominate. High Power, Three Gun, IPSC, IDPA, Cowboy Action, the various shotgun sports, Bullseye Pistol, etc. "I want to just plink" isn't a discipline. If you want to become very good, you better compete in what ever discipline you desire. That is the ony way civilians can assess their skills with a set of conditions and standards. Realistic or not in terms of combat, that is the hard truth in terms of becoming a fine marksman.

2. Study the discipline you have chosen and go to some of the matches to see if it meets your needs. If it does, it best become your passion -- to a point. Take my word for it -- to a point.

3. Set short and long term goals that relate to your chosen discipline. These will be directly related to your end state. Write them down, do a real good sanity check on them, change them as you need to in order to be realistic concerning every factor that can interfere with achieving these goals, then put them on a calendar using the first person and without any ambiguity.

4. Your training will be determined by the discipline you choose. You have brains and know what you need to focus your attention towards. Set a training plan in conjunction with your goals that is realistic and write down exactly what you will do during each training event. How many rounds, fired at what range, from what postion. And what you demand from yourself in terms of results.

5. Be able to look at your performance and self without emotion. Make conclusions about your performance in terms of your strengths and use those strengths to eliminate short falls.

6. Always have another goal to achieve as you will achieve the ones you set.

Other advice? Sure.

Learn what 'calling your shots' is and put it to good use in your development. If your calls are on spot, you have trained your eyes to see. If your shots are all in the X ring at the same time, you have a good zero and your finger has been trained to pull when your eyes have seen.

Gene

[badcarma]

NDD

I have a dumb question I'm self teaching pistol CQB and other then the FM you posted about is there any other good books to read? Right now im reading the 5th edition of combat handgunnery by Massad Ayoob is this a good book for me to learn from?

Thanks Sir!

[lksteve]

1. Determine the discipline you want to dominate. "I want to just plink" isn't a discipline. that's the mindset...subtle don't get it...

[NousDefionsDoc]

NDD

I have a dumb question I'm self teaching pistol CQB and other then the FM you posted about is there any other good books to read? Right now im reading the 5th edition of combat handgunnery by Massad Ayoob is this a good book for me to learn from?

Thanks Sir!
Ok, numbah 1 - I din't post the FM, the TS did. Numba 2 - you can't "self teach pistol" and you have no idea what CQB is. Pay the money and get a good Instructor. Otherwise you will develop some bad habits that will be very hard to break. You can't learn this stuff from a book. Books are to give you ideas when you have mastered the basics. That's why we don't do the correspondence course thing anymore.

I personally don't care for Mr. Ayoob much - caveat: I don't know him but from his writing.

Seriously, find a good Instructor if you want to do this.

[badcarma]

I want to be able to dominate any hostile sitation.

[badcarma]

Sir would you know of anyone in the Fort Campbell area?

[NousDefionsDoc]

Condition your finger to move when you eyes see a good sight picture.
LOL - I win! I win! That's one Gene - #4! And I'm claiming #1 as well because you mentioned stance first! By the end of the week, we'll have come full circle.:lifter ;)

[lksteve]

I want to be able to dominate any hostile sitation.a rather broad goal...i would suggest you determine the most immediate threat...pick your most likely tools (weapons) and determine how you will achieve mastery of those tools (weapons)...then you pick the next most likely threat, work on that while you refine your mastery of your first priority...then...

it never ends...you only die eventually...let's hope for old age...

[NousDefionsDoc]

I want to be able to dominate any hostile sitation.
LOL - you keep talking about Ayoob and CQB, you're going to get your first chance very quickly.

Now hush - I'm gloating.

[badcarma]

Also im sorry its not called CQB what i want to learn. Is it called force on force?

[NousDefionsDoc]

Sir would you know of anyone in the Fort Campbell area?
Numbah 1 - Don't evuh call me Sir.

Numbah 2 - No, do your research. It's your money. Why on Buddha's green earth would I know anyone in that leg hell?

[NousDefionsDoc]

Also im sorry its not called CQB what i want to learn. Is it called force on force?
I'm about to sling your rucksack down the hall. HUSH!

[badcarma]

Im sorry for the "sir" thing just the way my parents taught me.

I'll also do some searching online. Thanks again for your patience.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Thanks, I didn't write it down, but I do it. Why don't you just post it so everyone can benefit?
You need to get the TS' permiso before you do that - this is an open board and he didn't get that knowledge out of a box of Crackerjacks.

[x SF med]

Reading through this thread makes me wonder if I could even fire a pistol anymore, it's been 10 yrs since I last did range time, and it was 2 yrs before that that I did a lot of firing. I do remember that a lot of technique came back after about 3 mags. I did notice that after that it all fell into place, sight over barrel with botheyes open, and squeeze as the picture 'felt' right - no holes in holes, but decent groups just left of the sternum, consistently. Tried a few headshot groupings - and found I would not wwant to go after a moving BG for headshots. Point is, this thread makes me homesick for the range - pistol and rifle.

[Gene Econ]

So are you saying that the eight principles can never be achieved or they must be taught in a broken down fashion until each one is mastered to be able to achieve the eight principles?

I am saying this. If your barrel is pointed into the middle of the target when the shot is fired, your bullet will go into the middle of the target.

You know it is pointed there because your eyes see it is pointed there.

You then pull the trigger without pointing it somewhere else.

Or if you are in the zone, your finger moves when your eyes see. Train your eyes to see and your finger to move. It is that simple and unless someone is trying to write a book for profit, they will tell you exactly what I just told you. Be they an Olympic Gold Medal winner, a hunter, or a combat rifleman (who knows what he is doing).

Oh yes, if you believe you must do eight things perfectly, then you must do eight things perfectly at once. I believe you must do one thing perfectly at once. Conditon the finger to move when the eye sees.

Bottom line is this -- what is easier. Doing eight things, four things, or one at one time?

Gene

[NousDefionsDoc]

Polar Bear is going to need medicating after that one Gene. LOL

[NousDefionsDoc]

Do a search wasp nest poker.

Post again in this thread and I'll ban you so fast Google won't be able to lead you back here.

[x SF med]

Do a search wasp nest poker.

Post again in this thread and I'll ban you so fast Google won't be able to lead you back here.

Ouch!!! wound up Huge slap to the back of the brain pan, will the boy take the hint and stay down??? I hope so, if he wants to stay on the board, and not have NDD go medieval on his young ass. (badcarma - yes, this is a hint to slink away, quietly, with your tail between your legs, before you really catch the wrath of khan)

[Gene Econ]

BTW Gene WTH? It will never get any easier....:cool:

NDD:

It was easy. I treat female soldiers the same way I treat male soldiers. As Professionals at Arms.

Females have better fine motor skills so generally make more consistent marksmen than men.

Females have difficulty in dealing with the pressure of time combined with demanded performance. This one I haven't figured out quite yet.

Female soldiers are extremely competitive. This is an advantage.

They kept telling us that they appreciated our 'simplicity' in communicating concepts and 'individual coaching' techniques. We kept telling them that we aren't doing anything different with them than the men. They didn't believe us but it is the absolute truth.

Some female shooter on PS please give me some feedback as this is most confusing.

NDD - we did a great Stress Test with them today that included shooting and treating a casualty. Had a couple of combat experienced NCOs and Officers set up a Mulage scenario that went in stride with our stress fire. Worked out pretty damn well. And that from us -- an 18A retired dinasour Mo-Fo with a couple of tough SSG 11B's.

The whole week was an extremely interesting and quite satisfying experience. I really got a kick out of working with these particular soldiers. C Co. 202 BSB, 4/2 SBCT. Quite a bunch of real characters.

Will comment on your post to me tomorrow when I am rested please. We are far more in agreement than any disagreement.

Gene

[NousDefionsDoc]

Ah so, they were female. We've had three come through and I agree with your assessment completely. Sounds like great training.

See you tomorrow. Have a good night.

[HOLLiS]

I am saying this. If your barrel is pointed into the middle of the target when the shot is fired, your bullet will go into the middle of the target.

You know it is pointed there because your eyes see it is pointed there.

You then pull the trigger without pointing it somewhere else.

Or if you are in the zone, your finger moves when your eyes see. Train your eyes to see and your finger to move. It is that simple and unless someone is trying to write a book for profit, they will tell you exactly what I just told you. Be they an Olympic Gold Medal winner, a hunter, or a combat rifleman (who knows what he is doing).

Oh yes, if you believe you must do eight things perfectly, then you must do eight things perfectly at once. I believe you must do one thing perfectly at once. Conditon the finger to move when the eye sees.

Bottom line is this -- what is easier. Doing eight things, four things, or one at one time?

Gene


Gene,

One of my thoughts, is that many new shooters what a simple sure way, or a short cut that is guaranteed to have 100% results. Techies will say the newest and latest gizmo will do that. From my experience and what I have read it takes really good training from people who know, while there is no guarantees that you will walk aways, the odds are good. Nothing can replace the art of training when it becomes natural as scratching your nose. As you said 8 becomes one. There are no sort cuts, nor some technical advantage that can be substituted for skill. Skill can only come by hard work and competent instruction.

H.

[Cincinnatus]

Cincy - I saw a thread mentioning it once on TPI - do you know what i'm talking about?

Frayed knot. :p

[Polar Bear]

I am saying this. If your barrel is pointed into the middle of the target when the shot is fired, your bullet will go into the middle of the target.

You know it is pointed there because your eyes see it is pointed there.

You then pull the trigger without pointing it somewhere else.

Or if you are in the zone, your finger moves when your eyes see. Train your eyes to see and your finger to move. It is that simple and unless someone is trying to write a book for profit, they will tell you exactly what I just told you. Be they an Olympic Gold Medal winner, a hunter, or a combat rifleman (who knows what he is doing).

Oh yes, if you believe you must do eight things perfectly, then you must do eight things perfectly at once. I believe you must do one thing perfectly at once. Conditon the finger to move when the eye sees.

Bottom line is this -- what is easier. Doing eight things, four things, or one at one time?

Gene

Gene Thank you for the answer

NDD I had to read it twice

[Gene Econ]

thanks...

Yo -- LK:


Took a look at that wheel thing on that PDF file. They got the 'hand' backwards. The one that says 'left handed shooter' is really for right handed shooters and vice versa.

We have one of these in GTA format next to our urinals. Put up by a former cadre of ours. Big GTA -- about two foot square so big enough that I can read it while pissing.

That wheel thing more relates to one hand firing of the pistol than two. Put two hands on the pistol and that wheel really doesn't work too well.

My biggest problem with such devices is that they tells a fellow everything he is doing wrong instead of telling him what to do right.

I troubleshoot human error using ball and dummy to see where the barrel moves on the shot, and then isolate the part of the body causing that movement. Normally some adjustment in position followed by mental discipline gives a fix. After it is fixed enough to gain confidence that it is fixed, it becomes a mental discipline issue.

This whole thing is more of a mental game than a physical one. Fun though.

Gene

[lksteve]

We have one of these in GTA format next to our urinals. Put up by a former cadre of ours. Big GTA -- about two foot square so big enough that I can read it while pissing.if you are looking at the wheel while you are pissing, how can you hit the Hillary urinal target...? or J*** F****...?

This whole thing is more of a mental game than a physical one. Fun though.the truth is, i've never seen the wheel, never did that much off-hand pistol shooting...i am curious about learning and teaching aids and when i have the chance, especially if i find something that's cheap (read free), i'll try it out before i send it to the land fill...

[Team Sergeant]

the truth is, i've never seen the wheel, never did that much off-hand pistol shooting...i am curious about learning and teaching aids and when i have the chance, especially if i find something that's cheap (read free), i'll try it out before i send it to the land fill...

The only teaching aid I use, besides targets, is a snap cap.

Come down to Phoenix (during the winter/spring) and I'll take you out for free.;)

TS

[lksteve]

The only teaching aid I use, besides targets, is a snap cap.you are invalidating 22 years of GTA-based training and instruction...:D

the more i look at the wheel, the more i think using it as a target might be entertaining...

Come down to Phoenix (during the winter/spring) and I'll take you out for free.hell, when is it winter in Phoenix...?
i couldn't impose...there would have to be libations involved...:D

[Gene Econ]

Roger Brother Gene, as usual we agree more than disagree.

I think you are absolutely correct in your analysis and will only offer this in response - yes, I no longer have to think about them - unless I miss. When I do miss, it is my fault and I can usually trace it back to one of The Eight. I don't know of another way to get to unconscious competence than starting from the beginning and working through The Eight until they can be applied without conscious thought. If you have suggestions, please, pleeease share.:)

Stance - I don't kick feet after the first 1 minute. In fact, I will make them change their stance (strong foot forward, feet parallel, etc.) to show them they shoot from the waist up and they don't have to worry about where their feet are. The Eight are relative - The Stance doesn't have to be a book stance, as long as you have a relatively stable platform - but you do have to have a Stance. Does that make sense? Good firing position to me means being able to engage from the best possible position for the situation. Not specific degrees and angles.

The ability to pull the trigger means to me the ability to pull the trigger correctly. When he sees the barrel pointing at the target means he sees the barrel by way of its component part the front sight.

Speed, efficiency, economy of motion and the combat application of The Eight - all of which I call elegance - can only come from hours of repetitions as far as I know. But in order to get good solid hits under stress time after time - consistency - the fundamentals have to be applied. To do it in a fight, they have to be applied unconsciously

Breathing is a good one. A lot of people say it doesn't apply in combat shooting. I agree it doesn't apply to the individual shot the way we do with sniper shots. But I do breath when shooting. And I try to get breath control taken care of outside. A couple of deep ones and then a rhythm. And then another big one when done for the moment.

SFAUC, SFARTEAC, no combat shooting school in the world will give one the level of competence of which we are talking. They will give one the basics. competence will only come from hours and hours of practice. With a coach where possible - alone if not. Shooting is an individual skill to me.

NDD:

Seems to me you are using the eight factors to your advantage. They are your foundation and you know when to use them. I don't think you can go wrong with them. I just caution fellows who are working with 'new shooters' to be careful with what you put into their heads. Kind of like when some moron introduces 'Spin Drift' into the heads of shooters whose performance doesn't match that of their rifle and ammo. Shooters who are having difficulty tend to use such things as an excuse for poor performance or focus themselves on things that have no meaning.

I really like your methods concerning body position. I believe the same way but just have different words for it. I view the barrel aligned via sights to the eye as an 'aligned system' of eyes and sights. This system one shifts around his lower body much like a tank turret and main gun. To a point of course and then you shift your whole body. I really stress eye sight alignment and developing this aligned system of eyes and sights as anything to allow one to see a sight picture more clearly and to pull the trigger more consistently are good things. As for trigger control, I could care less if the guy straightens out the trigger on an M-16, as long as the barrel remains pointed into the middle of the target when he does so. You have said the same thing -- just a different way of communicating it. To the Army, this is called position. I even call it position and it is a position. The issue seems to be what does a position do for the shooter? Well, to me a position points the aligned system of sights and eyes and lets the shooter move his trigger consistently and perfectly.

I view breath control as something done in order to see the sight picture better, and as a relaxation tool. Guys who are relaxed tend to have more consistent trigger control. Most leaders and even most Joes still view breathing as the ill for failing to have the barrel pointed into the target when the shot is fired. We both know what breathing through a string of rapid fire can do to shots. But only if the shots are fired higher or lower than center. No, I don't advise guys to breath as they fire the shot but nothing says one can't do this and still hold perfect shots. I prefer to do like you describe with short hard breaths and holds followed by deep breaths when possible. I also could care less if a guy takes multiple shots on one breath. Some guys are pretty fast, particularly with the M-68.

I like presenting guys with a few concepts concerning marksmanship and then coach them on using the concepts to achieve marksmanship goals on static and tactical ranges. Today's Four Marksmanship Fundamentals are concept oriented and are actually pretty good. Unfortunately, it takes guys who really know what they are doing in terms of all aspects of training and communication to transform these fundamentals into productive results with large groups of soldiers.

My big issue with the Army in terms of marksmanship training is that the Army focuses on short term solutions instead of long term progress. We try to give the soldier concepts to apply with an opportunity to apply them so he can learn how to train himself when he gets the opportunity to fire.

Your last comment on competence is right on the money. Takes a whole bunch of discipline and patience for a guy to develop into a top of the line shooter.

Now another 299 pages and I have my book!

He, he, he.

Gene

[Team Sergeant]

you are invalidating 22 years of GTA-based training and instruction...:D



Yes, in the case of the "wheel" yes.

It's as outdated as the single action six shooter.

Outdated as the Weaver stance.

TS

[stanley_white]

First of all this thread is outstanding...

A few of my thoughts:

1. Start with a 4x4x4 inch wood block. Place said wood block on the dirt / sand mound etc that the bullets impact into once they pass through the paper target. Engage the wood block with a shot or two or three. Upon being shot the wood block will move to a different position. Engage the wood block again. The goal is to keep the wood block moving as much as possible. This is good for getting students used to having to shift their focus from the front sight, to down range to scan for threats / measure the effectiveness of their fire, then back to their front sight to re-engage the target.

2. Simunition kits and protective gear required for this one... Take two students and have them load their weapons with simunitions. Tell the student that on command they will engage each other and the first person who shoots the other wins. Prior to the students engaging each other have them close their eyes and hold their ears as the instructor takes their weapon from them, empties the chamber, presses the magazine release, then returns their weapon to them. When they attempt to engage each other the first student to realize their is a problem and properly executes tap-rack-bang will win.

[stanley_white]

A question about scanning for additional threats to the front...

I have been taught two ways of scanning for additional threats to the front following engaging the target.

Method 1 calls for me returning my pistol to my high center chest (what the USMC HRP program called position two) and scanning by moving my eyes / head only.

Method 2 calls for me to keep the pistol at full arm extension and move the pistol with my eyes as I scan my front.


Which method do you folks prefer and why?

[lksteve]

Which method do you folks prefer and why?might as well have the gun follow the line of sight...i was trained to keep the weapon trained on the line of sight...reduces reaction time...no sense in scanning, then aiming...anything you scan should be readily engaged...

[NousDefionsDoc]

Stan:
1. We used to do your woodblock drill with empty ammo boxes. You miss, you have to move back to the next line. Hit and you get to move up.

2. I have seen guys do your SIMS drill as well, with the loser having to take an additional round in the 4th POC.

Scan - I look at it as "My gun is now dirty, I might as well find somebody else to KIA." It is also a way to break out of stress symptoms, mostly tunnel vision. We teach drop the gun slightly (micro amount) to clear line of vision and do it with arms extended and finger on the trigger.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Gene,
Are these the four you use?

LINK (http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/four-fundamentals-of-mark.shtml)

[12B4S]

lk, Take TS up on that offer. You won't find a better one. ;) I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, except it was 30 or so years without practice. Some shooting here and there. Not much. Even though it is the end of July, could have gone out shooting the past few days. It was only in the upper 90's. But October and beyond, you should be pretty safe. :D Hell! I'll come along, so your misery will have company. No problem with the libations.

[Gene Econ]

Gene, Are these the four you use? URL="http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/four-fundamentals-of-mark.shtml"]LINK[/URL]

Doc:

Those are the four fundamentals but that is absolutely not how I use them. Once again the Army is trying to force a soldier to do more than two things at one time and that relates to my statements on why the Army can't progress.

Here is how I define them -- when I use them. Sometimes I substitute recoil control in place of breathing if I think recoil control needs to be openly stressed. I am not dogmatic about these things and will change what I use in an instant. They are just a pretty convenient way of describing the things someone needs to do for consistency.

One time I only stresed position and trigger pull. Worked just fine as those two things were what the guys needed. They understood that position was also sight picture as your position ensures good eye sight alignment and points the barrel at your target.

I don't care how a guy points the barrel or pulls the trigger. As long as he gives us the consistent performance we demand for the particular training we are doing.

Here is what I normally emphasize for each one of the four fundamentals. I ignore that the Army wrote about them.

Position: Brings the sights to your eyes and points the barel for you.

Aiming with Consistent Sight Picture: Train your eyes to see what a good sight picture is and ingrain that in your mind.

Trigger Control: When your eyes see a 'good enough' sight picture, move your finger without changing the sight picture.

Breathing: Deep and controlled breathing gives eyes oxygen so you can see your sight picture better. It also relaxes you so you can point the barrel and pull the trigger better. It is a requirement in order to continue to live.

Off to some practice at 300 and probably 500 today!

Gene

[kgoerz]

Like NDD said the scanning the threat area is to break your tunnel vision you acquire in a gunfight and to remove yourself from the threats tunnel vision. Teaching a controlled scan left then right is to install the muscle memory to new shooters to perform a solid follow thru. Like stance and scanning as Shooters become more proficient they will all perform this task a little different. The stance is a guideline for a secure and balanced shooting platform. It is a natural fighting stance. I have seen instructors still correcting and nitpicking shooters stance after two weeks of shooting even though the Students are consistantly hiting the kill zone. If they are shooting accurately and have a secure and balanced stance after the first week we leave their stance as it is. It is their natural stance. I always notice that instructors who can only correct stance with students after a week of Combat Marksmanship is a sign of a instructor who has little experience in teaching combat marksmanship.

[NousDefionsDoc]

It speaks! And well....

[lksteve]

Take TS up on that offer. went to the range today...shot well, if the civvies are to be believed, but not at a level where i thought i used to be...probably not even at the level i actuallyused to be...:(
i guess i need to clear my sometime on my calendar...

I'll come along, so your misery will have companysounds like a plan...

[Gene Econ]

If they are shooting accurately and have a secure and balanced stance after the first week we leave their stance as it is. It is their natural stance. I always notice that instructors who can only correct stance with students after a week of Combat Marksmanship is a sign of a instructor who has little experience in teaching combat marksmanship.

KG:

Absolutely correct in both statements. Thats why I use a concept of position -- just saying what a positon is and does for the shooter. They will find their own best position. The check is performance.

It is extremely difficult for me to break in a new cadre member coming from the line for the exact reason you stated. I have to train their eyes to see 'consistency' by a shooter. Very difficult to break them from focusing on form over performance. I have techniques that work pretty well in re-focusing cadre who would rather be dogmatic than practical.

Here is one for you that you probably don't run into too much. Very few cadre I get have any idea what 'good' is, or what to reasonably expect from shooters in various conditions and with various types of resource constraints. A few days on a KD range is a pretty big eye opener.

Gene

[JimW]

NDD,
The reload drill you mentioned at the beginning is a good one.;) I would like to add kit selection comes into play here. Whether you carry one spare mag or twenty you should have one “emergency reload" pouch. This will preferably be an open top or kydex pouch. This is my "oh shit” reload pouch. I like to piggy back pistol pouches on top of this one rifle pouch. This will allow you to ingrain that vital muscle memory of your “go to” reload regardless of the weapon system.

When practicing the drill NDD talks about the helper should place the new mag into the same pouch. The emergency reload pouch. Through out the range training day students should focus on doing emergency reloads from this pouch and when there is a lull in the fight top it off with fresh mags. This drill applies to both pistol and rifle. If you piggy back these pouches (pistol and rifle) you will maximize your speed and proficiency at the speed reload (combat reload). Regardless of the weapon system your hand goes to the same location

Last thing: This is one of the best posts I’ve read on the internet for a firearms instructor:


Most shooters do not possess the strength to shoot for hours; this is a huge factor when training individuals, to know when they have had enough. This is also an enormous factor when they start to miss and wonder why. 99.9% of the “instructors” I've watched have NEVER told anyone "you’re tired" and that's why you are throwing shots everywhere.
(Next time you teach or watch a group of twelve or so individuals shooting watch closely for 30 minutes. At about the 30 minute mark many will start to throw rounds everywhere.
(This does not apply if the students are “barrel chested freedom fighters”, competition shooters, or some SWAT teams. These individuals usually have the requisite upper body strength required to shoot for hours without a serious degradation of marksmanship.)

When I teach one of the first things I do to "students" is ask them to shake my hand and attempt to "crush" my hand. It’s not a test of "manlihood", I use it as a "gage" to check upper body strength and grip. It also tells me how long they will be able to shoot before fatigue starts to set in.

Something else I ask students, "who here is ready to run a marathon right now?"
Normally no one answers "I can". I then ask why? The answers usually are all the same, preparing for a marathon takes months of conditioning, hours of running per day, time to strengthen the legs, lungs, harden the mind etc. Then I tell them "so does shooting a pistol straight after 20 minutes."

Most individuals arms start to "fatigue" and "fail" after 20-30 minutes and there’s no way in hell they are going to have any semblance of accuracy left after this time. This is where the instructors I've watched make their biggest mistakes, trying to "fix" an individuals problem when, at that moment, it cannot be fixed. This is where I would make an educated guess that many instructors use the "wheel" to try to explain the individuals’ problem, when in fact all they need is rest.

I also ask how many times do they think Tiger Woods has "swung" his driver in order to become number one in the world? Want to be a great shooter, all one needs to do is put in the time. Learn how to do it right the first time and then its all about practice, conditioning etc.

There is more than one individual on this board that can place a pistol bullet through the same hole, not a shot group, the same hole at 5-7 meters. They know what it takes and they also know it takes practice, a lot of dry firing, and more practice to accomplish this feat all day long, every time.

Team Sergeant


If you are a trainer, read this, read it again and know it. Understanding this, being able to recognize fatigue in students and setting up your training accordingly will maximize the productivity of your range time.

Thank you, TS.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I think that's the biggest post I've ever seen you make. LOL

I changed my set-up tonight. I put a MM-designed, Emdom-produced 6o4 on the weak side of my vest chest. It's right above the M4 pouches now. I have only dry fired it so far, but I think I'm going to like it. I'll shoot it some then let you guys know my thoughts later. I need kg to take the pics. I don't know about carrying 4 in it. What I'm thinking is I will load out of it and then have one on the near side by itself, then two in the other. Seems that the one will fit the bill as your emergency reload pouch. The top folds back and the retaining band seems to hold it in there without being too tight.

It's going to take me a while to get used to it, but I think will be eventually be just the ticket.

Great comments by all.

[kgoerz]

It speaks! And well....

I and home spending time with the wife so I have plenty of time to post.........

[CDRODA396]

This is an excellent thread, tons of great information, especially from the instructor point of view. Unfortunately, I wasnt lucky enough to attend any of the Army's/SF finer shooting schools, but have come around once I retired and actually have time to invest in the range.

One drill I particularily like, and credit where credit is due, I found on the internet one day, at:

personaldefensetraining.com/showpage.php?target=dottorture.php&PHPSESSID=7340bc370bf83de5c46f400b026d0659

and goes like...

This is a marksmanship drill, fired at 3 yards or further. Targets are ten 2" dots numbered. A total of 50 rounds is needed. You will perform: 22 draws and holster, depending on magazine capacity 5-10 administrative or speed reloads, obtain 83 sight pictures and press the trigger 50 times.

Dot #1- Draw and fire one string of 5 rounds for best group. One hole if possible, total 5 rounds.
Dot #2- Draw and fire 1 shot, holster and repeat X4, total 5 rounds.
Dot #3 and 4- Draw and fire 1 shot on #3, then 1 shot on 4, holster and repeat X4, total 8 rounds.
Dot #5- Draw and fire string of 5 rounds, strong hand only, total 5 rounds.
Dot #6 and 7- Draw and fire 2 shots on #6, then 2 on #7, holster, repeat X4, total 16 rounds.
Dot #8- From ready or retention, fire five shots, weak hand only, total 5 rounds.
Dot #9 and 10- Draw and fire 1 shots on #9, speed reload, fire 1 shots on #10, holster and repeat X3, total 6 rounds.
When you can do this clean on demand, extend the length or start timing and work on speed but maintaining accuracy. If a single shot is missed, you flunk. Only hits count and only perfect practice makes perfect.

The only modification I made was on Dot #5, I fire/recover x 5, versus a string of 5, and the same on Dot #8. The thing I like about it is it covers a lot of basic skills, front sight focus/trigger squeeze, reloads and most importantly strong hand only and weak hand only in a drill packaged to use the same number of rounds in a box of ammo.

I usually shoot this as "warm up" if you will then work on whatever I am focused on for the day. For the average/non-military shooter, I would say this is a HUGE shortcoming. How many times do you go to the range and see someone tack up a target, shoot it 10-15 times, take it down and tack up another and repeat til ammo is gone with no real focus in mind. I try to pick one thing each time I go to the range and work on it, versus just sending lead down-range.

And the target for the Dot Drill... thoughts anyone..?

[dr. mabuse]

CDRODA396, I've used the dot torture. Very humbling. Get it perfect at 3 yards then speed up and so on.

Another amusing one that I used at an LE rifle competition is 5 each 1" dots, horizontally spaced about 1 1/2" apart at 100 yards. You shoot prone with a bolt gun and you have 7 seconds. You have 11 seconds at 200 yards.

[Gene Econ]

CDRODA396, I've used the dot torture. Very humbling. Get it perfect at 3 yards then speed up and so on. Another amusing one that I used at an LE rifle competition is 5 each 1" dots, horizontally spaced about 1 1/2" apart at 100 yards. You shoot prone with a bolt gun and you have 7 seconds. You have 11 seconds at 200 yards.


Guys:

Three, five, and seven yards for the pistol? 100 and 200 yards for the rifle? Lord Have Mercy.

I kind of figure it like this. If I have to shoot someone at five yards with the pistol, I surely won't be trying to hold a one hole group. If I have to shoot someone at 100 or 200 yards with a rifle, a six MOA group will kill him as dead as a one MOA group, particularly if you shoot him with about fifty rounds of 5.56 or 7.62 from a machinegun.

If I have to go 'South Paw', it means my 'North Paw' is 'Deadlined for Parts' and that is a bad thing, most likely accompanied by severe pain, loss of blood and other things that interfere with the Four Marksmanship Fundamentals. Enough of things to render South Paw shooting little more than intimidating an enemy with noise and the potential for a hit.

As I don't claim to be anything more than a soldier, I won't get involved in LEA types of scenarios as the LEA has their rules and soldiers have their rules -- and the two don't meet -- ever -- and not even in the most extreme of LEA situations. You guys withdraw if shot at. We attack. You guys have to be ensured of a one minute hold or you are wise not to shoot. We shoot with anything and everything from the rifle to the 155. You care about law suits and we don't.

The only thing in common is that both the LEA and Joe loses in the media, no matter how just their cause.

Gene

[Team Sergeant]

Guys:

Three, five, and seven yards for the pistol? 100 and 200 yards for the rifle? Lord Have Mercy.

IThe only thing in common is that both the LEA and Joe loses in the media, no matter how just their cause.

Gene

I could not agree more.

A statistic I have heard is that over 90% of police longrifle shots are under 100m and we all know that 99% of handgun fights are 21 feet or less.

Police are not trained to be offensive, just "tactical":rolleyes:

Now that does not mean we cannot teach them to be as accurate as possible to do their jobs.;) I'd actually do not want them "spraying and praying" while attempting to take down "one" badguy......

(We just had a cop accidentally kill a 5 year old in a gun battle here in the Phoenix area just a month or two ago. Better training could have prevented the accident......)

[NousDefionsDoc]

We shot the dot torture (modified) a few weeks ago. The Instructors really liked it, so we will be doing it again.

I agree Gene, but I look at it this way" One hole (or really good groups) at 3, 5, 7 10 will probably spread to 6" (or better) under two-way range duress. And we have to have a goal to shoot for in training, so it might as well be a good one.

[TF Kilo]

I'm going to try out the dot torture next time I'm out shooting. Targets I can just print out and have a stack of are nice...

Speaking of targets... I need to fabricate a sturdy target stand.. the walmart special I got on a spur-of-the-moment purchase didn't quite survive zeroing the .454 rifle I bought the wife... LOL

[The Reaper]

I'm going to try out the dot torture next time I'm out shooting. Targets I can just print out and have a stack of are nice...

Speaking of targets... I need to fabricate a sturdy target stand.. the walmart special I got on a spur-of-the-moment purchase didn't quite survive zeroing the .454 rifle I bought the wife... LOL

New gun?

What model?

Where are the pics?

You can knock together a decent target stand out of 2x4s and a couple of pieces of PVC pipe.

TR

[TF Kilo]

Puma 92 lever action .454 Casull.

The wife had been drooling over it in the past, I saved my hide when I showed up with the new carbine by turning her frown upside down by tossing her the box and saying "STFU I didn't leave you out"

[The Reaper]

Puma 92 lever action .454 Casull.

The wife had been drooling over it in the past, I saved my hide when I showed up with the new carbine by turning her frown upside down by tossing her the box and saying "STFU I didn't leave you out"

Nice shootin' iron.

I just picked up a Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70. Got some 525 grain hard cast bullets to load up for it when I get the chance.

As far as shooting drills go, I would venture that the drills for a bullseye shooter are not the same as those for an IPSC shooter which are not the same as for a LEO, which are not the same as for an SF soldier.

Training starts with an analysis of the skills required for the intended purpose, and then maps a route to acquire and ingrain the specific skills needed. Olympic class sprinters do not use the same routine as marathon runners. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice does. And as I was recently told, look for TTPs that work 100% of the time, in 100% of the conditions. Dark, light, hot, cold, amped up, tired, kitted up, naked, it has to work all of the time. I am trying to get rid of some old habits, and it is not easy.

HTH.

TR

[CDRODA396]

The thought just occurred to me that this might need to be its own thread and not a hi-jack of a shooting drills thread...if so deemed, Admins please move as appropriate...THX.

Speaking of targets... I need to fabricate a sturdy target stand.. the walmart special I got on a spur-of-the-moment purchase didn't quite survive zeroing the .454 rifle I bought the wife... LOL

I built a couple target stands out of PVC plumbing tubing from a design I saw at the local "Fun Shoots" down in Tampa. You can get the tubing at any Home Depot, Lowe's (no sponsorship or plug intended :D ) You need one or two 10" lengths, I think 2" diameter (the size a 1x4 will slide snuggly down into), then two "four-way" connectors (the ones that have two connections flowing straight through, then two connections perpendicular to the straight through ones, at a 90 degree angle to each other...if that makes sense?).

The four-way connectors are placed on the ground, oriented so the "straight-through" portion runs front to back (up and down range), one of the remaining two openings is oriented up, and the remaining opening is oriented to the inside (or towards the other four way connector if you will). Cut a cross piece of the tubing the same width as an IPSC standard target (plus an inch or so on either side to go into the connector) and connect the two pieces. Then cut four 18"+/- pieces and insert them into the two front to back connections on each side. You know have an "H" with the horizontal bar of the "H" the width of an IPSC target, and the two parralell legs approx a yard long. Then take two 12" pieces and place them in the connection oriented skyward on each side.

Now a 1x4 can be placed in each side, in the connector pointed skyward, they will be separated by the width of an IPSC target so you can staple the target to the uprights with a staple gun. Or you can use any cardboard cut to size.

You can also pick up end PVC caps, and if its windy out or you are shooting the .454, fill the legs along the ground with sand, cap them and you have a weighted stand.

The whole thing will dissassemble and go in the trunk of your car in minutes. If you hit one of the 1x4's or piece of PVC, just run down to the local hardware store and pick up a replacement. I believe 10' of the correct diameter tubing is about $3, and the two four-way connectors are about $4 each.

This is of course for the budget minded, I would much rather have a plate rack, a couple of rotating, metal target holders, some swingers, movers, etc. Unfortunately, my "fixed income," and small, inside the city limits backyard wont allow it.

I would take some digital pics and post them, but I just moved and am sitting on the one folding chair I brought with me, typing on the computer sitting on the cooler I brought and waiting on my HHG's, so no digital camera or targets are currently available!

[TF Kilo]

I have some ideas... it's just a matter of getting it all together and a trailer to mount the whole shebang on. Planning on something along the lines of the mobile BEAR, but home fabbed.

[Gene Econ]

I agree Gene, but I look at it this way" One hole (or really good groups) at 3, 5, 7 10 will probably spread to 6" (or better) under two-way range duress. And we have to have a goal to shoot for in training, so it might as well be a good one.

Doc:

Roger -- we do dot drills with guys as well but with a differrent intent if that makes sense. We prefer to emphasize recoil control, speed, precison, and mental agility although not necessarily in that order. My experience is that unless one is using some very small targets (dots), the close range work damages to ones marksmanship skills. So we use them for the purposes stated combined with steel at longer ranges so they can make the mental transition between a big target up close to a small target farther away. Ball and dummy some guys after they have shot dots sometime. He, he, he.

We don't do any formal weak hand training because the Army doesn't emphasize it and the amount of time needed to develop a weak hand into anything sustainable is significant. Just our decision to focus resources on things we view as most likely to occur.

We have to watch how our guys respond to drills as Joe will turn them into a competitive sport pretty fast and will begin to do tactically unsound things to 'win'. This actually makes a course pretty interesting for everyone as staying ahead of Joe really demands a huge amount of intuition and imagination.

Gene

[NousDefionsDoc]

Gene,
We're on the same page. This exercise works all those same attributes. When I said "modified" above, we took the weak hand out all together. Just shot another string of five.

This is a good drill IMO - another tool in the box.

[Gene Econ]

I just picked up a Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70. Got some 525 grain hard cast bullets to load up for it when I get the chance.

As far as shooting drills go, I would venture that the drills for a bullseye shooter are not the same as those for an IPSC shooter which are not the same as for a LEO, which are not the same as for an SF soldier.

Training starts with an analysis of the skills required for the intended purpose, and then maps a route to acquire and ingrain the specific skills needed. Olympic class sprinters do not use the same routine as marathon runners. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice does. And as I was recently told, look for TTPs that work 100% of the time, in 100% of the conditions. Dark, light, hot, cold, amped up, tired, kitted up, naked, it has to work all of the time. I am trying to get rid of some old habits, and it is not easy. HTH. TR


TR:

The one thing that will succeed every single time is a soldier who has embodied the following characteristics.

Total confidence that he will succeed.

Total trust in his training (skills).

Total trust in his equipment.

Total trust in his decisions.

Total trust in his buddies and his chain of command.

Now -- if a course results in guys with these characteristics, you don't have to worry about relying on TTPs for success and yes, they will study TTPs on their own as that is the type of guy you developed. So it is a win / win situation.

I think that guys get stuck in a certain way of running training. X amount of ammo fired in Y conditions to Z standards. And so on until at the end, the logic is that the guy went through every event to standards so he is trained. Normally, Army training is focused on failure so most of the time one gets failure. It is easier to focus the training on how to succeed but that part of the Army is 230 years of tradition uninhibited by progress.

I provide formal instruction on how guys can develop these mental skills, then use various drills to instill the characteristics described. The drills force them to incorporate these skills as Joes love to succeed. Thus, I do look closely at all shooting disciplines as every one of them emphasizes a different angle in developing these characteristics. We do formal marksmanship work as well but we mix this in throughout a day.

There isn't any set of drills that will bring success. However, by putting a very strong picture of what you want the shooters to become in their heads at the very beginning and then using drills to develop that picture -- you normally end up with success. Of course you will have to use the other side of the brain as well to set specific gates and standards for success. I don't compromise on standards.

Your hardest problem will be painting that picture and then coming up with challenges as the guys progress. Also, you need to gather a cadre of guys who believe in these techniques and methods.

Gene

[Gene Econ]

Speaking of targets... I need to fabricate a sturdy target stand.. the walmart special I got on a spur-of-the-moment purchase didn't quite survive zeroing the .454 rifle I bought the wife... LOL

Why not?

You putting steel on a target stand or are you blasting at five feet?

I made ten target stands for IPSC Steels using 2X2s and some plywood. Have shot them at 200 yards with 118 LR and none of them have been broken or have fallen over.

Not sure why your stands aren't standing up if you are shooting holes through paper.

Use 2 X 4's if needed and sand bag in the legs to keep the frame from falling over due to the wind.

Be very careful if you are going to comment on the power of a .454 to destroy a target frame.

Gene

[TF Kilo]

Be very careful if you are going to comment on the power of a .454 to destroy a target frame.

Gene

Please expand upon this premise. I'm interested where I need to be careful?






The wife was zeroing her 454 rifle.

25 M.

Standard normal bullseye target.

First round shot nails the steel stand. The stand was a wally world special I picked up when I was getting ammunition. 3/8" steel rod. Pseudo-T design, 2-4 target capacity... well about 2 targets, now.

Blew it in half. I remounted the top portion of the stand after prematurely chewing some ass. Got behind the rifle, and repeated what the wife had just done.

After telling the wife she's off the hook, moved up to 10m, and worked my way back from there zeroing it after that. Then handed it back to her for her to fine tune to her desires.

[Gene Econ]

After telling the wife she's off the hook, moved up to 10m, and worked my way back from there zeroing it after that. Then handed it back to her for her to fine tune to her desires.

TFK: Steel target stand eh? I guess I need to train my eyes to see better as I didn't note it in the early posts.

Use wood. With the big bores use 2 X 4 as they will take a few hits before going down. .30 caliber and below and you can go down to 2 X 2s.

A few outfits make some real solid steel stands for cardboard. Ususally about forty or fifty dollars per. These can take some hits as well and seem heavy enough to hold up in the wind if you use plywood to staple or glue the targets on to.

If we want to discuss ammo I think it best to start a thread in the ammo area.

Gene