Deadly pocketknives become a $1 Billion Business

[12B4S]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06206/708441-28.stm

[Bill Harsey]

I have a very strong disagreement with this opinion, uh I mean article, and if quoted correctly, some of the guys I know who are quoted in the article. :mad:

[12B4S]

I was interested on your take on that article Bill. You'd know more about what was stated in the piece than anyone I can think of.

[NousDefionsDoc]

He writes for the LA Times.

It is crap in my opinion.

[Peregrino]

Looks to me like another "expose" along the lines of the CBS attack on the .50 rifles. Next thing somebody will be screaming for legislation banning "knives with more than three of the following characteristics----". (Wait a minute - didn't they already do that with guns?) It's all smoke and mirrors to set the stage for the slippery slope. Pretty soon we'll look just like Great Britain. FWIW - Peregrino

[Peregrino]

He writes for the LA Times.

It is crap in my opinion.


No - he "lefts" for the LA Times. :p Peregrino

[slcraig]

Most definitely a crap article...

[x SF med]

Knives, even 'tactical' knives are tools. A screwdriver is as good as a tactical knife in many cases, or a sharp stick, or a rock, or a nicely aimed strike to the throat.... most of these idiots are going to hurt themselves before they hurt somebody else. I gave up my bullet launchers because of the hassle, but these goons are not getting my knives.

[NousDefionsDoc]

No - he "lefts" for the LA Times. :p Peregrino
Huh?:p

I'm a little tired. kgoerz made me do about 10,572 live fire mag changes this morning. Damn slave driver!

[CPTAUSRET]

No - he "lefts" for the LA Times. :p Peregrino

Cute, in a subtul sorta way.

[Bill Harsey]

Without doing a point by point rebuttal of this editorial disguised as an article please allow me to touch on a couple glaring points of both unproven and
un-informed statements.
About the knife parts found in the wreckage of the hijacked airliners of 9-11,
How in the hell can that be said to have been parts of knives used by the hijackers when every law abiding citizen who both carries a knife and flies, stows the damn knife, legally, in their checked luggage that is then placed on that flight.

"Tactical knife", anyone want to define that? I can.

edited to add: good responses to this before i hit submit button.

[Warrior-Mentor]

Why does a law abiding citizen need one of these?

http://www.coldsteel.com/nise.html

The company's founders, owners, and members are socially irresponsible and should their products be used illegally, I hope they lose everything they own and rot in jail for pre-meditated stupidity.

Edited for clarity: My issue isn't the blades, but rather the material with which they are produced.

[Bill Harsey]

Why does a law abiding citizen need one of these?

http://www.coldsteel.com/nise.html

The company's founders, owners, and members are socially irresponsible and should their products be used illegally, I hope they lose everything they own and rot in jail for pre-meditated stupidity.

Edited for clarity: My issue isn't the blades, but rather the material with which they are produced.
Take that up with the owner of the company. I don't make those.

The other side is, what materials are we going to start making illegal to produce knives out of?
The owner is still responsible for the legal carry and use of those knives just like with firearms or anything else that can be used as a weapon like the rock or the stick mentioned by x_sf_med here.

[The Reaper]

Why does a law abiding citizen need one of these?

http://www.coldsteel.com/nise.html

The company's founders, owners, and members are socially irresponsible and should their products be used illegally, I hope they lose everything they own and rot in jail for pre-meditated stupidity.

Edited for clarity: My issue isn't the blades, but rather the material with which they are produced.

Well, by extension of that logic, gunmakers are responsible for firearms violence and fast food makers for obesity.

"My M-4 made me commit a crime." "My 'Vette made me get a ticket." "Why does anyone need 30 rounds?" "Who needs a car that can go three times the national speed limit?" "I am a victim of my possessions!" "Protect me, Namby State!":rolleyes:

I believe that I will have to agree to disagree and say that IMHO, you should be able to buy anything you can make out of cold steel.

You use it inappropriately around me and I should be able to make a hole in you big enough I can throw a cat through.

TR

[x SF med]

Why does a law abiding citizen need one of these?

http://www.coldsteel.com/nise.html

The company's founders, owners, and members are socially irresponsible and should their products be used illegally, I hope they lose everything they own and rot in jail for pre-meditated stupidity.

Edited for clarity: My issue isn't the blades, but rather the material with which they are produced.

WM-
there were a few times back in the dark days of the Cold War, that a dozen of those in the ruck would have come in real handy -cheap, sharp, no glare, light. Even now, in my area, they are tempting to have, as a way to be 'carrying' through metal detectors in buildings - my little Gerber drop blade (2") sets them off, but it does have one ID Tag chained to it. It's a nice defense tool.

I agree that they are somewhat irresponsible, due to the marketing, but I'm a knife guy, have been since before I joined the service, and look at knives differently than the average person (as do most of the people on this site) they are tools - multi-purpose tools, lifesaving or lifetaking tools depending on the situation. I agree with your unstated premise that they should notbe made available to the general public - the gang bangers, the unbalanced - at a low price.

Personal and social Responsibility rules, in all things.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

I'm a little tired. kgoerz made me do about 10,572 live fire mag changes this morning. Damn slave driver!

So, didn't get it right the first 10,571 times or was this pay back for something else:D

[Peregrino]

Why does a law abiding citizen need one of these?

http://www.coldsteel.com/nise.html

The company's founders, owners, and members are socially irresponsible and should their products be used illegally, I hope they lose everything they own and rot in jail for pre-meditated stupidity.

Edited for clarity: My issue isn't the blades, but rather the material with which they are produced.


Sorry WM - I'm with TR on this one. Criminals & crazies will do their deeds irrespective of the material their tools are made of and without regard for legal restrictions put in place by "useful idiots". Weapons free zones serve only to disarm honest people and infringe basic human rights. The proliferation of fixed metal detectors, random wand searches, and laws making the carrying of concealed weapons a felony do little to control/prevent assaults. They serve only to increase the potential victim pool for those already inclined to violence. What happens when you're attacked in a public place (where "weapons" are forbidden and that prohibition is enforced by a metal detector) by a gang or even someone who out masses you by 25% (or more)? A sincere "stomping" will kill you just as dead as sticking a plastic knife in you yet that self-same plastic knife in your hands might enable you to defend yourself. Or defend somebody else: see I know how you think - you might be able to deal with or escape from an attack by multiple assailants, but what about your family? Gangs, psychopaths, etc. roam pulic places in broad daylight too. Can't hide at home, even if you were inclined to do that. So why not use every tool/advantage at your disposal? Remember the Saturday Night Special Laws? They served primarilly to deprive the least affluent members of society (those most likely to be victims of violent crime) of affordable firearms. Just a little food for thought. FWIW - Peregrino

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Sorry WM - I'm with TR on this one. Peregrino

I agree completely. Sort of goes along with the reality that locks are for honest people.

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

Sorry WM - I'm with TR on this one. Criminals & crazies will do their deeds irrespective of the material their tools are made of and without regard for legal restrictions put in place by "useful idiots". Weapons free zones serve only to disarm honest people and infringe basic human rights. The proliferation of fixed metal detectors, random wand searches, and laws making the carrying of concealed weapons a felony do little to control/prevent assaults. They serve only to increase the potential victim pool for those already inclined to violence. What happens when you're attacked in a public place (where "weapons" are forbidden and that prohibition is enforced by a metal detector) by a gang or even someone who out masses you by 25% (or more)? A sincere "stomping" will kill you just as dead as sticking a plastic knife in you yet that self-same plastic knife in your hands might enable you to defend yourself. Or defend somebody else: see I know how you think - you might be able to deal with or escape from an attack by multiple assailants, but what about your family? Gangs, psychopaths, etc. roam pulic places in broad daylight too. Can't hide at home, even if you were inclined to do that. So why not use every tool/advantage at your disposal? Remember the Saturday Night Special Laws? They served primarilly to deprive the least affluent members of society (those most likely to be victims of violent crime) of affordable firearms. Just a little food for thought. FWIW - Peregrino


I agree with what you have said here! :lifter

[uboat509]

I am with WM on this one. This is not like the guns made me kill him or fast food made me fat arguments. The overwhelming majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens and there are many legitimate uses for guns. Fast food can be enjoyed in moderation without making you fat but as far as I can see these knives have no other purpose than avoid detection. Everything that you can do with these knives you can do better with a metal knife except avoiding detection. I sincerley believe that whereas the legitmate uses for guns far outweigh the illegitimate uses, that is not the case with these knives.

SFC W

[Ken Brock]

All they did was change the buzz word from "assault rifles" to "tactical knives"


That article was nothing but trash to inflame the sheeple

[7624U]

"Tactical knife", anyone want to define that? I can.

edited to add: good responses to this before i hit submit button.


Black handled
Sharp
Good Balance
Flexable can be used for many tasks
Slightly Higher Priced (Quality)
The choice of Professionals (AKA someone that knows how to use a knife.)

Wait that sounds like a good kitchen knife when I cook dinner

[The Reaper]

I think the last plane that was going to be hijacked with edged weapons crashed into a field near Shanksville, PA almost five years ago.

You pull out anything from a plastic butter knife to a Katana and start acting weird on an airplane today, you are going to get the ass-whipping of your life by at least half of the 150 passengers on board. The ability to stab will not allow the user to overcome large numbers of people fighting for their lives with O2 bottles, seat belt extenders, rolled magazines, seat cushions, etc.

Buy all of the fiberglass knives you want.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

[Bill Harsey]

Black handled
Sharp
Good Balance
Flexable can be used for many tasks
Slightly Higher Priced (Quality)
The choice of Professionals (AKA someone that knows how to use a knife.)

Wait that sounds like a good kitchen knife when I cook dinner
7624U,
Thank you and let me take this a bit further.

My definition of Tactical Knife is this:
A knife designed and built to do any job a Soldier, Sailor, Marine, Airman, Coast Guardsman, Policeman, Fireman, Emergency Services Personal, Doctors and EMT's or Private Citizen would need in an extreme or emergency life critical situation while also performing many normal tasks we expect out of an edged tool.
This means a knife built of materials designed to take hard use, constructed in a strong manner and designed to be used with a high degree of dexterity in adverse conditions.
The expectation of any knife labeled "tactical" is that is has been designed and built to a higher standard for hard use and the owner can carry that knife with confidence that the knife will not fail in an emergency situation even if it is never used for such purpose.

[dedeppm]

I'd have to say that I agree with WM to a point on this one, and not because of the threat posed to airliners (I think TR is right on in his assessment of the fate awaiting any knife-wielding would-be hijackers). It's sort of irresponsible to basically put this out there so that every idiot who wants to stab a someone in a courtroom or some similar setting now has the ability to do so. I'm not sure if this is just poor marketing (like Intratec's claim that their TEC DC9 had a "fingerprint-resistant finish") or if it's really just irresponsible to sell the product.

Not illegal, but maybe not the most socially-responsible course of action. All it will take is one killing with one of these knives in a "secure" environment and the witchhunt against the knife industry will begin, similar with what happened with so-called "assault rifles" in the 90's.

[NousDefionsDoc]

So, didn't get it right the first 10,571 times or was this pay back for something else:D
He's a sadist.;) It's actually a great drill.

[Smokin Joe]

I am with WM on this one. This is not like the guns made me kill him or fast food made me fat arguments. The overwhelming majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens and there are many legitimate uses for guns. Fast food can be enjoyed in moderation without making you fat but as far as I can see these knives have no other purpose than avoid detection. Everything that you can do with these knives you can do better with a metal knife except avoiding detection. I sincerley believe that whereas the legitmate uses for guns far outweigh the illegitimate uses, that is not the case with these knives.

SFC W

Keep in mind that there are good people who must do bad things in secure areas. Not necessarily in this country.

I'm with TR on this one.
you should be able to buy anything you can make out of cold steel.

You use it inappropraitely around me and I should be able to make a hole in you big enough I can throw a cat through.

Personally I think limiting the "method" or "tool" that someone uses or has access too is just, well.....stupid logic.

Here is why. Last night I arrested this guy for going nuts inside his house, he threw a bunch of knives at his wife and kids. Before I could get to his house, he leaves gets in his car and hauls ass down the freeway heading Northbound in the Southbound traffic, attempting to kill himself and anyone who is unlucky enough to get in his way. Yes he did cause a serious accident sending 3 people including himself to the hospital. Unforunately he only suffered a dislocated hip (his left leg was 3 inches shorter than the other). So should we ban cars now? Cars that can go over 60 mphs? Or Green Dodge Neons? --None its the person behind the tool that ALWAYS matters not the tool that was used.

Just my .02 cents

[Cincinnatus]

I'm with Joe, TR, Jack, Peregrino, et. al., FWIW. Was it Senecca who said "A sword is just a tool in a killer's hand" or words to that effect?

I know this is a flawed analogy, but consider the efforts to restrict weapons in prisons and how poorly this works to curtail violence.

People have the right to defend themselves, impliictly they have the right to the means with which to defend themselves. This should not be trifled with lightly.

[uboat509]

Keep in mind that there are good people who must do bad things in secure areas. Not necessarily in this country.

Chances are those people would be working for the government and therefore not subject to prohibitions on this kind of stuff.

I'm with TR on this one.


Personally I think limiting the "method" or "tool" that someone uses or has access too is just, well.....stupid logic.

Here is why. Last night I arrested this guy for going nuts inside his house, he threw a bunch of knives at his wife and kids. Before I could get to his house, he leaves gets in his car and hauls ass down the freeway heading Northbound in the Southbound traffic, attempting to kill himself and anyone who is unlucky enough to get in his way. Yes he did cause a serious accident sending 3 people including himself to the hospital. Unforunately he only suffered a dislocated hip (his left leg was 3 inches shorter than the other). So should we ban cars now? Cars that can go over 60 mphs? Or Green Dodge Neons? --None its the person behind the tool that ALWAYS matters not the tool that was used.

Just my .02 cents

The difference between this and a car or a gun is the number of legitimate uses for cars and guns versus illegitimate. Cars and guns are tools which CAN be used for illegitimate purposes but for the most part will not be whereas I don't really see a lot of legitimate uses for these knives other than the few obscure instances previously noted. I think of it like a lock pick kit. If you are civilian and not a locksmith and you have a lock pick kit then maybe you have it for some legitimate purpose like if you forget you keys or something but I'm not betting the farm on it.

SFC W

[Books]

I think of it like a lock pick kit. If you are civilian and not a locksmith and you have a lock pick kit then maybe you have it for some legitimate purpose like if you forget you keys or something but I'm not betting the farm on it.

FWIW, there is a a growing number of hobby lockpickers and safe crackers coming mainly from the computer science sector (think crypto guys who like to fuddle with stuff). My first lock picking primer was entitled the MIT Guide to Lockpicking. I look at picking locks as a Rubic's Cube for adults.

Ultimately I throw my hat into the ring with the more libertarian set.

My .02 cents. . .

Books

[Peregrino]

GRP knives have been around for years. I've had a couple of the original Choate daggers since the early 80's (don't know exactly where I stored them - but I've got'em somewhere). Cavalry Arms was giving out GRP Tanto's as party favors at the SHOT Show - too bad their lawyers made them disable the .45 barrel bushing wrench "'cause somebody might hurt themselves" if they slipped. I like multi-purpose tools. Now I'm forced to keep track of two CA toys - but I do appreciate the wrench they passed out with the letter opener - it can't mar the finish on my Kimber. Bottom line - I'm not afraid of people with plastic knives. I am afraid of people who would restrict my ability to take whatever means I feel prudent to ensure my personal defense - and enforce their restrictions with restrictive ordinances, criminalization, invasion of privacy, metal detectors, and threats of incarceration and application of lethal force. And then have the audacity to tell me that they are not responsible for ensuring my safety - and support that contention with a Supreme Court ruling. Does anyone remember the distinction between a citizen and a subject? Maybe Claire Wolfe ought to be recommended reading. My .02 - Peregrino

[Cincinnatus]

I don't own a plastic knife, can't see a need for a plastic knife, and don't want to get wrapped around the axle on this particular issue.

However, I am vehemently opposed to the notion of hoplophobic prohibitionists dictating what someone else may need to defend themselves. As that same article implies, there are those who would restrict knives that can be opened with one hand - as clearly anyone who would want such a thing is up to no good. The burden is not on the armed individual to justify his being armed, double edged knives, plastic knives, one handed opening knives, greater than ten round magazines, flash hiders, bayonet lugs, lockpicks, or what have you, need not indicate ill intent.

Life is not safe. Attempts to legislate it safe are doomed to failure and seem to breed further attempts to legislate it safe in a vicious cycle of stupidity.

There is also in these laws (many of them anyway) a dangerous double standard. If I read the law correctly, it is now illegal to have a Swiss Army Knife on your person in the city of Boston. Now I'm in my forties, more than a little gray in my hair, tend to dress well, and white. It's very unlikely that if found with a SAK in my possession that anything will happen to me. (In fact, I was in the Federal Building in Boston and handed over a SAK before going through security, there was a little handwringing on the part of one woman security guard over the blade length, but it was returned to me and I went on with what I was doing.)

I have to wonder though if I'd been a black teenager, or was wearing a Grateful Dead t-shirt (or the Che t-shirt I borrowed from NDD :D ), if I'd have had more trouble. The law should apply to all or apply to none. DC, I'm told, allows Congress critters to be armed, but it is nearly impossible for a private citizen to get a carry permit. I find that disturbing.

:munchin

[Bill Harsey]

England has banned the carry of any pocket or pen knife unless your job directly depends on it. Scotland, IIRC, is considering the total ban of kitchen knives.
How's the crime rate over there doing?

How's the crime rate in Washington D.C.?

[The Reaper]

England has banned the carry of any pocket or pen knife unless your job directly depends on it. Scotland, IIRC, is considering the total ban of kitchen knives.
How's the crime rate over there doing?

How's the crime rate in Washington D.C.?

I was recently in England and I believe that I heard on the news that the sentence for carrying a knife (without any other crime) in England was 4 years incarceration.

You are right Bill, doesn't seem to have any effect on the criminals.

TR

[mike-munich]

There are only a few illegal blades in Germany.

throwing stars (or shurikans)
butterfly knifes
fist knifes/daggers
and "falling" blade knifes (also known as paratrooper knifes)

As for the crime statistics here, we see neither a decrease nor an increase in violent crimes with those blades after they became illegal 2 years ago.

All other blades, such as bootknives or switchblades, are legal in Germany.

[Smokin Joe]

Chances are those people would be working for the government and therefore not subject to prohibitions on this kind of stuff.


Right...... So when my buddy who works NARC's goes to court with a sh*thead dope dealer that he has befriended, do you think my buddy is going to flash his badge to get through security? No, of course not but instead he should just go unarmed? No. But he works for the government so he should have access to these plastic knives. Okay cool so lets further examine this. We have a small NARC team as a result getting them to purchase anything out of their budget is ridiculous, and they wouldn't go through the ringer to get plastic knives for the guys and gals because it is not worth the effort. Not to mention if only .gov types can have said knives what does my buddy do when the above mentioned sh*thead finds the knife because my buddy got pat searched for a wire on a dope buy?

Ah, I'm over complicating this, bottom line I can see a legitmate use for having an open market on these knives. Personally I don't have a use for them but some do. As far as the legitimate use for these goes, they are cheap, light weight, and fill a niche. Can they be used against us... sure but what can't be used against us? I'm not worried about the idiot who gets through security with a knife. I'm serious I'm not, I could give a shit... I'm worried about the idiot who walks up to security with a bomb on his chest, the kid who goes to school or the guy who goes to court with an AK-47 and 5 magazines.....ready to do the deed.

[uboat509]

I'm not sure I understand your argument Joe. Of course cops should have access to to these knives if they need them just like they have access to lots of things that the general public doesn't.

SFC W

[Bill Harsey]

uBoat509,
Joe's point is this:
If only cops are allowed to have a certain knife or article and that cop who is deep undercover has that knife or article found on them when searched by a bad guy, bad guy has found proof he's got a cop.
Result: Cover compromised or blown, cop is at high personal risk of injury or death and all the police work on that investigation is flushed down the toilet.

Word on the street travels at light speed and bad guys find out what cops carry and use, especially if that item is restricted to law enforcement only.

[uboat509]

uBoat509,
Joe's point is this:
If only cops are allowed to have a certain knife or article and that cop who is deep undercover has that knife or article found on them when searched by a bad guy, bad guy has found proof he's got a cop.
Result: Cover compromised or blown, cop is at high personal risk of injury or death and all the police work on that investigation is flushed down the toilet.

Word on the street travels at light speed and bad guys find out what cops carry and use, especially if that item is restricted to law enforcement only.

I would say, not neccessarily. He could always claim he got it illegally and still maintain plausible deniability. I would think he would have a harder time explaining why he had a plastic knife. If the bad guys are using some type of metal detector then they will want to know why you are trying to sneak a weapon past their security. If they don't have metal detectors then why not have a metal knife? And how much protection is a plastic knife anyway in that situation? Ah, well. I'm probably overthinking this anyway.

SFC W

[The Reaper]

These knives have been sold for many years.

How many people here have any personal knowledge of one being used to commit a criminal act?

TR

[mike-munich]

especially if that item is restricted to law enforcement only.


I fully agree with SFC W. Crooks usually don´t care weather a certain item such as a knive or firearm is legal or if he needs a permit. Working undercover and being caught by criminals with such an item, I would always claim that I got it illegally.

Looking at the crime statistics one will see that violent crimes are hardly commited with legal firearms or knives. 99.8% of the cases involve illegal items here.
A ban of certain firearms, blades or even magazine capacity wouldn´t change a thing.

So far I wouldn´t know of a case that involves one of the plastic knives or CIA daggers. They are around, but they wouldn´t show up in the statistic, since they are legal here.

[Smokin Joe]

uBoat509,
Joe's point is this:
If only cops are allowed to have a certain knife or article and that cop who is deep undercover has that knife or article found on them when searched by a bad guy, bad guy has found proof he's got a cop.
Result: Cover compromised or blown, cop is at high personal risk of injury or death and all the police work on that investigation is flushed down the toilet.

Word on the street travels at light speed and bad guys find out what cops carry and use, especially if that item is restricted to law enforcement only.

Ya, what he said. :D

Thanks Bill!


I fully agree with SFC W. Crooks usually don´t care weather a certain item such as a knive or firearm is legal or if he needs a permit. Working undercover and being caught by criminals with such an item, I would always claim that I got it illegally.

Looking at the crime statistics one will see that violent crimes are hardly commited with legal firearms or knives. 99.8% of the cases involve illegal items here.
A ban of certain firearms, blades or even magazine capacity wouldn´t change a thing.

So far I wouldn´t know of a case that involves one of the plastic knives or CIA daggers. They are around, but they wouldn´t show up in the statistic, since they are legal here.

Work U.C. sometime and your opinion will change. You wake up paranoid thinking "is today the day they catch me?" maintaining "plausible deniability" is great in COURT, bad guys don't play by those rules. If BG's think they have a NARC on there hands one of two things happens: 1. you lose the case because the bad guys won't do business with you or 2. Your dead onsight.

So how strong is your "plausible deniability" now? Would you be willing to bet your life on it?

[lksteve]

If only cops are allowed to have a certain knife or article and that cop who is deep undercover has that knife or article found on them when searched by a bad guy, bad guy has found proof he's got a cop.
Result: Cover compromised or blown, cop is at high personal risk of injury or death and all the police work on that investigation is flushed down the toilet.hopefully, a cop working deep cover is smart enough to know what not to carry...you think they'd have a checklist...

[NousDefionsDoc]

I disagree with the entire concept of "Law Enforcement Only".:munchin

[Roguish Lawyer]

I disagree with the entire concept of "Law Enforcement Only".:munchin

+1

[Smokin Joe]

I disagree with the entire concept of "Law Enforcement Only".:munchin

I'm with you.... I believe that everyone should have access to the same "tools", however I also think there should be a limit to the training.

[lksteve]

however I also think there should be a limit to the training.why...?

[Smokin Joe]

why...?

I don't think everyone has a need to know the most current TTP's that are winning wars. Especially on the team tactics level. As far as the individual fighter or shooter goes I have no problem leaving it wide open.

[lksteve]

I don't think everyone has a need to know the most current TTP's that are winning wars. Especially on the team tactics level.understood...how do you define "militia" with regards to the Second Amendment...?

[Ken Brock]

understood...how do you define "militia" with regards to the Second Amendment...?


I can't speak for Joe, but IMHO the militia is the citizens

[lksteve]

I can't speak for Joe, but IMHO the militia is the citizensi'm not trying to bust Joe's chops...but if the citizens are the miltia, what level of tactical knowledge should be kept from them...? what level of tactical knowledge should be EXPECTED of them...?

[The Reaper]

i'm not trying to bust Joe's chops...but if the citizens are the miltia, what level of tactical knowledge should be kept from them...? what level of tactical knowledge should be EXPECTED of them...?

The ability to take care of themselves under difficult conditions, and to load and fire the standard service rifle, of course.

They can be drilled on the rest when they are mustered.

TR

[lksteve]

The ability to take care of themselves under difficult conditions, and to load and fire the standard service rifle, of course.

They can be drilled on the rest when they are mustered.it is not my point to create argument, but at some point after being mustered, they return to civilian life...then what...?

[The Reaper]

it is not my point to create argument, but at some point after being mustered, they return to civilian life...then what...?

They are The People. They have a parade, and then return to their civilian lives.

TR

[lksteve]

They are The People. They have a parade, and then return to their civilian lives.agreed...and they retain their training and their knowledge of tactics, etc., until called upon again, at which time re-training occurs...?

[The Reaper]

agreed...and they retain their training and their knowledge of tactics, etc., until called upon again, at which time re-training occurs...?

I believe that was the Founder's intent.

Worked well for the first half of our history.

TR

[Smokin Joe]

understood...how do you define "militia" with regards to the Second Amendment...?

Like Ken said... it is the people.

What type of training do I think they should recieve?

Enough to run their guns, as well as be able to defend themselves, and their familes from a hostile attack.

[mike-munich]

Work U.C. sometime and your opinion will change. You wake up paranoid thinking "is today the day they catch me?" maintaining "plausible deniability" is great in COURT, bad guys don't play by those rules. If BG's think they have a NARC on there hands one of two things happens: 1. you lose the case because the bad guys won't do business with you or 2. Your dead onsight.
So how strong is your "plausible deniability" now? Would you be willing to bet your life on it?


Joe. You might be right in some cases. A plastic knive would probably give you away and "plausible deniability" wouldn´t work there.
I was talking about carrying illegal items (as in firearms) in general. If you work U.C. and carry the issued H&K pistol you are dead in a heartbeat. Carry a pistol that is not issued with a laser sight (illegal here) on and you are one of "them". Have a AK-47 in your trunk and you are one of "them" too. At least that´s how it works over here.

[Smokin Joe]

Joe. You might be right in some cases. A plastic knive would probably give you away and "plausible deniability" wouldn´t work there.
I was talking about carrying illegal items (as in firearms) in general. If you work U.C. and carry the issued H&K pistol you are dead in a heartbeat. Carry a pistol that is not issued with a laser sight (illegal here) on and you are one of "them". Have a AK-47 in your trunk and you are one of "them" too. At least that´s how it works over here.


Good to know I have never worked OCONUS so I will defer to your knowledge.

[mike-munich]

Good to know I have never worked OCONUS so I will defer to your knowledge.

I´ve spent quite some time with different Depts. stateside. Some things are the same, some are not. We have alot of organized crime from eastern Europe, Russia, Romania, Bulgaria....

I glady give you a tour of the Munich PD if you should make it to Munich, Germany, one day !
Stay safe !

[Smokin Joe]

I´ve spent quite some time with different Depts. stateside. Some things are the same, some are not. We have alot of organized crime from eastern Europe, Russia, Romania, Bulgaria....

I glady give you a tour of the Munich PD if you should make it to Munich, Germany, one day !
Stay safe !


Thanks much if I ever make it there I will take you up on the offer.