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I've started reading Che's Guerrilla Warfare (or Gorilla, for you scixelsyd), and was wondering why he failed to implement methods which he suggests in his book when trying to subvert the Bolivian government?
IMO it seems that he chose his location geographically as opposed to trying to find a base of people which he could co-opt, and that this lack of public support in his AO made him far easier to catch.
Solid
NousDefionsDoc
03-29-2004, 09:40
He didn't choose the location. He was set up for failure - mostly to keep him out of Argentina and Cuba.
EG had a specific idea of what he wanted for location, but he gave in. The location of the base in the backwards southeast was chosen by the Bolivian Communist Party leader Mario Monje.
The BCP was much less cooperative to the guerillas than the PSP (Partido Socialista Popular) had been in Batista's Cuba.
Thank you for the clarification. I was very much surprised by how easy-to-read Guerrilla Warfare was, and that for the most part it lacked out-and-out political rhetoric (other than naming the guerrilla's the 'people's army' etc).
To an outsider, it seems that much of the tactics and concepts written about in GW are similar to those used by USSF. Was there an omni-directional flow of information, did one concept feed off of the other, or did they develop seperately? Noting the date, SF had been around officially for one year (10th Grp).
Does anyone know approximately the time when the helicopter-insertion warfare techniques used by Air Assault and Cavalry in Viet Nam was first coined?
Thank you,
Solid
Kyobanim
03-30-2004, 06:04
Originally posted by Solid
Does anyone know approximately the time when the helicopter-insertion warfare techniques used by Air Assault and Cavalry in Viet Nam was first coined?
Thank you,
Solid
I believe the Air Mobile concept was developed in the 63/64 time frame and deployed around '65 with the 1st Cav. But don't quote me on that.
The Reaper
03-30-2004, 06:40
Originally posted by Solid
Does anyone know approximately the time when the helicopter-insertion warfare techniques used by Air Assault and Cavalry in Viet Nam was first coined?
Thank you,
Solid
You need to read "We Were Soldiers Once, and Young".
TR
Ambush Master
03-30-2004, 08:26
Originally posted by The Reaper
You need to read "We Were Soldiers Once, and Young".
TR
Also came out as a Movie. Mel Gibson lived with General Moore for several months and the General was there during the filming. I saw an interview with the two of them and Mel was amazed when the General took him to the Post Cemetary at Benning and introduced him to several of his Troopers !!
We Were Soldiers Once... And Young is a great book... I don't remember it having hard information on Air Mobile Warfare, but then again I read it in seventh grade. I figured that 'Air Mobile' was coined quite a bit after GW was written.
The movie was good, but IMHO not as good as Black Hawk Down, largely because it took so much from Brave Heart in terms of plot rhythm. I also really dislike the fact that for these movies, actors go to 'school' to learn to 'fight like soldiers'. It seems that they then leave and believe that they actually understand what soldiering is about, although they have hardly even completed 1/10th of Basic training. BHD is good in that the Rangers went to a course which taught them how to look and act like Rangers, but nothing more. No pretenses.
Was there any relation in the development of SF UW techniques and Che's writing?
Thank you,
Solid
NousDefionsDoc
03-30-2004, 09:49
Originally posted by Solid
Noting the date, SF had been around officially for one year (10th Grp).
Thank you,
Solid
How do you figure one year?
Whoops! I got the date he finished medical schol (53) and the date he published GW (1961) switched. 10th Group was established in 1952... So, more like 9 years. I'm not too good on dates without memorisation, will not make that mistake again.
Does the codified doctrine of Guerrilla Warfare originate in Mao, or were there works published after the Peninsular war?
If there are books which would help me on the matter, I'd much rather self-educate than lean on you guys. I know I've ordered a few already, but they're taking their sweet time to get to me!
Thank you,
Solid
NousDefionsDoc
03-30-2004, 10:50
Small Wars by Caldwell - If you can find it
Clausewitz' works
Thank you.
I still haven't gotten through Clausewitz- while I KNOW it's the better translation (Paret and Howard), it's still pretty tough to absorb 100%, especially with school work.
Solid
Guerilla warfare has been around since the beginning of warfare itself. As for modern times I believe Mao Tse Tung and Ho Chi Minh codefied the principles in writting. In my day in Training Group (1963), a lot was taught from the works of Chairman Mao.
The 10th SFGA deployed to Germany in 1953.
Batista fell in 1959. I'm not a historian but I believe Che would have started compiling his book at this time.
The Reaper
03-31-2004, 10:21
Originally posted by QRQ 30
Perhaps you are talking of 1958 when JFK recognized and authorized the wearing of the Green Beret.
Kennedy was not elected President till 1960, and took office in 1962.
The beret was formalized by President Kennedy in 1962:
"It was President Kennedy who encouraged the wearing of the green beret by the Special Forces. Preparing for an October 12, 1961 visit to the Special Warfare Center at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, the President sent word to the center's commander, Brigadier General William P. Yarborough, for all Special Forces soldiers to wear the uniform as part of the event.
The President felt that since they had a special mission, Special Forces should have something to set them apart from the rest. In 1962, he called the green beret "a symbol of excellence, a badge of courage, a mark of distinction in the fight for freedom."
HTH.
TR
DunbarFC
03-31-2004, 10:28
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Small Wars by Caldwell - If you can find it
Clausewitz' works
Thanks for recommendations
Caldwell's book is available on Amazon for $18 used
Quite correct TR. I was trying to justify Solid's one year statement. Me thinks I'll go back and edit.:o
My statement was way off due to poor date retention. How did Air Mobile warfare change the concepts of Guerrilla Warfare and counter GW? I think I have some idea, but find this subject interesting as it seem that modern wars often involve GW or UW in some way.
Thank you,
Solid
NousDefionsDoc
03-31-2004, 14:20
How do you think it changed it?
My understanding, limited because all I've read is Che:
Che seems to envision enemy advances into G territory as a salient extending from non-G territory. The salient (specifically vanguard forces) must directly overcome numerous ambushes and fixed-position defences, along with flanking maneuvers. Air Mobile warfare allows the enemy to drop into G territory, strike, and go, or sustain their presence using helo resupply. This ability could have been obtained through the use of paratroopers, but 'ideal' G territory is rugged enough to prevent parachute insertion. However, helicopters using various methods can insert soldiers into more diverse terrain.
The enemy ability to strike anywhere within G territory denies the Gs a solid base of resupply or operations, which is considered key in Che's version of GW. An air defence system, as in Vietnam, may limit helicopter insertions, but SOG demonstrated that this made insertion more difficult, but not impossible.
Am I on the right track?
Thank you,
Solid
This ability could have been obtained through the use of paratroopers, but 'ideal' G territory is rugged enough to prevent parachute insertion.
SOG did insert a few teams by HALO
Maybe that's why Che met his demise. Chairman Mao saw things differently. The insurgent has to win the hearts and minds of the people. It sounds trite but came from Mao. Insurgents without popular support were, in his words: "As fish out of water." There was no "G territory". That was the major problem in RVN. Where was the "G territory"? Che tried to start insurgencies throughout Latin America but by and large failed.
FTIW: I attended an awards ceremony for two SF members of the 8th SFGA who participated in the demise of Che. They hounded him for ten years just as we will OBL until his demise.
My understanding was that these insertions were not made into heavily jungled areas, instead nearer the Cambodian coast. I understand, however, that there are parachute insertion techniques for jungle insertion through canopies (developed by the SAS in Borneo, I believe). I don't think that these techniques work for large numbers of people, certainly not the number that could be inserted via helo.
Solid
EDITED TO ADD:
QRQ my understanding of Che is that he too fostered the idea of winning hearts and minds, and that his 'g territory' developed out of this. Having not read Mao, I am not sure about how this compares. As far as I know, however, didn't Mao advocate the creation of "G territory" during the 'defensive' period of insurgency?
Does RVN refer specifically to the S. Vietnam area of operations, or include Cambodia, N. Vietnam, and Laos?
Solid: About all I can say about that is WRONG!!! I bvelieve the MMF may have made one drop. or two.
As for rough terrain jumping I taught it in Panama - enough said.
People in the puzzle palace were enamoured with HALO -- not the people who were to do it. They insisted on pushing HALO re-supply onm my team but I prevailed. I have a picture of a practice HALO which turned out to be HANO.
If I've understood correctly, MFF or para-insertion in general is too risky for mass-insertion and resupply, but is pushed by the government?
Would this mean that I'm right in saying that airborne insertions in general don't threaten 'g territory' significantly?
Thank you,
Solid
Eternal blue skies and fair winds for those who died in that jump.
I think I'll cut this threan now.
It wasn't too dangerous. IMO it wasn't tactically feasible. A recon team needs to be close together not scattered. When the Mike Force jumped they were daisy chained together.
By puzzle palace I mean various S-3/G-3 offices above the team level. To them HALO was a toy. To us it was a tool and there were better tools available. My team was airborne qualified and prepared for a deep insertion. However we rode in. We finally got our resupplies via low level drop at night. We didn't use chutes, water bladders did the trick.
QRQ- Thank you for the clarification.