View Full Version : LEO Comms: Need help
A friend and I are training to manage our local municipal wells in case the SHTF. (If anyone needs info on gender sensitivity or how to adjust the pH of muskeg water in Alaska, I'm your go-to guy. Bureaucracies are amazing.) We currently use Lake Michigan water, but the village wisely maintained the wells as backup.
The village's current plan is to phone us if they need us, which has an obvious flaw to my way of thinking. I'd like to expand on that SOP. From what you know about typical suburban LEO comm systems, can anyone recommend some alternatives? I'm assuming they have plans to keep their comms up. One way via scanner? A handheld transceiver?
I'm hoping there will be several more who volunteer for maintaining basic services and I suspect any hardware we'll need will come out of our own pockets so cost is a secondary but real factor. I can't imagine the village will spend any money on their end so we'll have to integrate into their existing setup.
I don't know what I don't know so if you have any questions on their setup I'll try to get answers. A complicating factor, though, is the services dept. is apparently not dialed into the police infrastructure, which is another problem as I see it but one thing at a time.
Thanks.
The Reaper
07-15-2006, 10:37
Hardwire phones should have a power backup at the company for a little while.
Cells should have the same, though in a disaster the cells may be overloaded with the usual OMG traffic.
Most public works and emergency services departments use Motorola handheld transceivers and vehicle mount radios for key personnel. That system is subject to the same issues, since most rely upon repeaters.
New Orleans was up until the batteries ran down. If you are looking to communicate beyond 72 hours or so, you better figure out how to keep power to the system and chargers, and fuel in the generators.
TR
...If you are looking to communicate beyond 72 hours or so, you better figure out how to keep power to the system and chargers, and fuel in the generators.
TR
Repeaters. Didn't know that.
That's the conundrum: if they actually need me it'll be because the grid is down. And I have absolutely no faith in the grid. Electricity around here is predominantly nuclear from an aging fleet of Exelor reactors. There are ongoing maintenance issues and the operators are a shrinking pool of FOGs (nuclear engineering has not been an educational priority over the last 20 years). Operator fatigue is a current issue -- these guys are already getting cited for exceeding mandated weekly maximum work hours. Transformers and lines are maintained by a hodge-podge of third part contractors.
I think it's a formula for disaster. In their defense, ComEd/Exelor haven't had a rate increase for 11 years.
I'm trying to dig into this whole thing a lot deeper: fuel stores on hand, spares, generator maintenance schedule, etc. but I'm getting a lot of resistance - "Who TF are you?" Understandable, but If I'm going to break quarantine and leave the house during a pandemic there's no going back, and I'm not doing that if there's no real hope of keeping things up.
Team Sergeant
07-15-2006, 11:25
Comms depend on a few things like distance and the amount and type of data you wish to transmit. And unless you're into signal flags or smoke signals all depend on some sort of power.
In an emergency you might want to go with HF comms. It can travel as a ground and sky wave and can cover thousands of miles. You might also look into solar power as an alt to electricity or batteries.
TS
Any local government that was serious about emergency commo would have contacted the local Ham operator oganization.
Most areas have a chapter somewhere near. They practice on Ham Days where they take their gear out in a field somewhere and set up emergency trasmitting sites.
Any long term planning would take their services into account. One big set-up in the local Emergengy HQ and smaller sets to tie in the outer areas. The central station could be used to tie the local area to the state HQ.
No ham here
Pete
Edit to add - around here they are used near the coast after hurricanes.
Sacamuelas
07-15-2006, 12:19
Ditto what Pete said.
"If it hadn't been for Amateur Radio operators, we would not have had communications with other agencies," said Col Joe Spraggins of the Harrison County Emergency Management Agency. "Even with the advancements in our radio technology, ham radio saved the day! Thank you."
Here is the full article.
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2005/10/07/2/
You also might check with your local National Guard about the Unified Command Suite.
http://www.afcea.org/SIGNAL/articles/templates/SIGNAL_Article_Template.asp?articleid=259&zoneid=63
Smokin Joe
07-15-2006, 13:40
mugwump,
After 9/11 we got a huge grant that lets our dispatch linkup/piggie back/ and or tie into everyone for emergency disaster type stuff. Being that it is Saturday I won't be able to get you much info but I will shoot an e-mail to a guy at work who is our Commo guru and try to get you some more info on the techincal end as well as the finanical end.
Do you have any terrain issues (except curvage of the earth) mountains, cuts, draws, valleys, etc. etc.? Or is it flat land from you the them?
EDIT: Also what do you have to work with (equipment wise)?
mugwump,
After 9/11 we got a huge grant that lets our dispatch linkup/piggie back/ and or tie into everyone for emergency disaster type stuff. Being that it is Saturday I won't be able to get you much info but I will shoot an e-mail to a guy at work who is our Commo guru and try to get you some more info on the techincal end as well as the finanical end.
Do you have any terrain issues (except curvage of the earth) mountains, cuts, draws, valleys, etc. etc.? Or is it flat land from you the them?
EDIT: Also what do you have to work with (equipment wise)?
Smokin Joe,
Thanks, this is exactly what I'm looking for. Stuff I should have included originally:
Terrain = pool table flat, distance = 7 miles radius max. No large commercial buildings with typical 2 story residential w/ large trees.
We personally have no radio equipment, none. We can pop for basic transceiver/12v adapter or scanner and we have ways of keeping them charged. We're not looking for reimbursement, the paperwork and hassle are not worth it, I'd stroke out.
Politically, we are off the reservation and difficult to integrate -- civilians w/ other jobs. The guy actually in charge of the backup wells is wildly enthusiastic and helpful but made the potentially fatal error of telling people that he was training us. He is a salt-of-the-earth nice guy but very low on the totem pole and not adept politically. Lawyers and risk managers have gotten involved.
The local gov. is tweaky, and trying to find an angle that just doesn't exist.
We hear we may have to become CERT trained, which would drive me away and probably the others. The gender/racial sensitivity training nearly killed me. Sometimes I think the goal is to get rid of us.
It may be that instead of a proposal for SOP what I should be looking for is an approach to take with the local LEOs.
Peregrino
07-15-2006, 17:16
Mugwump - Your issue is not with equipment, it's with a commo plan period. All you need is a well developed municipal emergency plan and somebody with the authority/courage to activate it. Who (specifically) are you going to talk to? What's the existing contact plan for essential personnel? Can/will "they" add your name to it? What you're talking about is probably solved easiest by sending a squad car to pick you up. Not that I'm pointing you away from technology, it just doesn't seem required in your current scenario. Always go with the simplest solution first. When you do build your personal commo plan remember - if you're going to spend the effort, make sure it follows the PACE (primary, alternate, contingency, and emergency) model. (Remember - redundant, not ridiculuous!)
For the rest of it - if you need to talk with people outside of walking distance then you can start getting elaborate. Check out "Guide To Emergency Survival Communications, How to Build And Power Your System", by Dave Ingram, ISBN # 0-916661-05-9. It's a little dated but it gets the ball rolling. The problem with preparing for catastrophy (from a citizen's perspective) is that many municipal systems went to trunked, digital repeater systems post 911. That's really annoying because knowing what's going on (intel) is an important part of reducing risk/exposure. (Analog equipment e.g. Bearcat scanners, won't recieve it and digital is relatively easy to encrypt - one of the reasons Homeland Security or anybody who has a need for privacy likes it.) You will have to check out the popular communications (that's also the name of one) magazines at B&N or BAM to get up to speed. The scanning scene changes/evolves so quickly periodicals are the only way to keep abreast of the technology. You're setting yourself up for a lot of homework. 1st - decide who you want to talk to. CQ CQ CQ just attracts unwanted attention. Then use your software development skills to create a decision tree and acquire/allocate resources to meet requirements. I'm sure this subject will be explored in nauseating detail when TR's "Be Prepared" thread gets to commo. Meantime, this should provide some "food for thought". Peregrino
Smokin Joe
07-15-2006, 17:29
Lawyers and risk managers have gotten involved.
Your F**ked right there!
LOL-J/K Get with your Search and Rescue Cooridinator. Skip your County or City level Emergency Services Cooridnators they are political and well, worthless.
Mugwump - Your issue is not with equipment, it's with a commo plan period. All you need is a well developed municipal emergency plan and somebody with the authority/courage to activate it. Who (specifically) are you going to talk to? What's the existing contact plan for essential personnel? Can/will "they" add your name to it? ...
Peregrino,
First, thanks for correctly defining the problem -- that's always more than half the battle. And thanks for the references, I'll start tracking those down.
PACE, is that a military term? What I see everywhere I look is the 'P' part mostly handled ("we'll call you") but nothing done after that. I don't know enough about the local gov's plans to know if that is a bad thing, as that was my personal approach as well: develop a 'primary' plan for each category and then make the loop through them again to make alternate plans. It may be they are simply in the 'primary' planning mode and when those needs are met we'll see alternates put into place.
That said, the more I look into this stuff them more I think we are well and truly buggered if something serious hits. Talk about culture shock; someone who's been running a business for twenty years butting up against departmental, village, township, and county bureaucracies. I'll never complain about the feds again.
An epidemiologist once said to me that pandemics weren't a bad thing at the species level -- they burn off all the dead brush that's been developing on the hillsides. I'm starting to see her point.
Your F**ked right there!
LOL-J/K Get with your Search and Rescue Cooridinator. Skip your County or City level Emergency Services Cooridnators they are political and well, worthless.
J/K NOT! You are a wise man. :)
I think I'm dusting off the old strategy I employed when I worked in a giant pharma company: network enough to find the non-idiots in each department, set up an informal organization via mutual back-scratching, and develop our own informal SOPs.
I know, I know. That's how the world goes 'round now, I just forgot the lesson.
I've got a young cop coming over to borrow my AR w/ the POF upper (again...I think he's in love with it). He's from two towns over but I'll ask him to get me a contact with the local LEO comms guys.
What you're talking about is probably solved easiest by sending a squad car to pick you up.
Peregrino,
I'd thought about that, but I'd really like to ask a few questions before I leave my family for the duration. To be honest, in addition to the issues you identified in your post I'd have to add: I already have our water supply secured. By leaving my family for the benefit of the community I increase the risk to my own family.
If the village only has three gallons of diesel left for the generators with no chance of resupply, the risk:benefit ratio is too high.
mugwump
Not an 18E here but a few things to think about.
Since cell phones and text messages CB radios have just about faded away except out on the highway and with truckers where the craze all started.
CBs can be picked up at yard sales for next to nothing. I have two vehicle CBs and one hand held sitting around the house. One of the vehicle ones is a boat CB that can switch from 5 watts to 25 watts.
CBs can be house mounted real easy with a 12 volt battery pulled from a car. A solar panel can keep that recharged. I have a 12v converter in my workshop area that I use to run radios pulled from cars.
I took one of the CBs and mounted it on a board with a plug in for the car. With a mag mount antenna I can throw the rig in any of the cars I use for a long highway trip in just a few minutes.
CB use is limited by poor/low antennas. A jungle antenna cut to freq. and pulled up high in a tree or nailed up with a board to the outside of a two story home would greatly extend the range.
Down side? Not secure - take care in talking about street addresses, locations and names. Go far from your primary freq and the transmision power really tanks.
A cheap thing to play around with some weekend with a few friends and then forget about until/if needed.
Pete
Edited to add - If you have one that runs in scan mode and don't talk a lot you can hear if anyone else is using one and on what channel.
Peregrino
07-16-2006, 18:01
Peregrino,
I'd thought about that, but I'd really like to ask a few questions before I leave my family for the duration. To be honest, in addition to the issues you identified in your post I'd have to add: I already have our water supply secured. By leaving my family for the benefit of the community I increase the risk to my own family.
If the village only has three gallons of diesel left for the generators with no chance of resupply, the risk:benefit ratio is too high.
mugwump
MW - I like the way you're thinking. Unfortunately you need to be prepared to defend your thought process in the face of a bureaucracy under pressure to "do something". It takes great moral courage for the average "public servant" to do nothing in a crisis, especially when that may be the most responsible solution. (Or at least not do something dramatic just because "the people" demand it even if it's ineffectual, or worse potentially counterproductive in the long term.) It's usually easier for civic leaders to lash out at someone telling them no and defying their authority/sense of urgency. That's part of the reason I don't like trunked digital systems, you can't keep a finger on the pulse without resorting to extraordinary methods. FWIW I think it's better (on an individual level for somebody with immediate personal responsibilities e.g. dependants) to adopt a "gray man" attitude and operate outside any existing social/political structure. It's easier to contribute on your own terms with due consideration for immediate responsibilities if you're not on a list. FWIW there's a reason psych profiling includes "lifeboat" ethics tests. Good luck. Peregrino
ETA: Pete - I'm with you 100% on the CBs. Simple radio procedures we all used before electronic methods became the norm greatly enhance the security profile and a precoordinated commo plan with a few "close associates" makes them a viable/valuable tool in any (natural or man-made) emergency situation.
...FWIW I think it's better (on an individual level for somebody with immediate personal responsibilities e.g. dependants) to adopt a "gray man" attitude and operate outside any existing social/political structure. It's easier to contribute on your own terms with due consideration for immediate responsibilities if you're not on a list...
It was good to see the above as I think I'm moving in that direction. I've learned an important lesson out of all this if nothing else.
mugwump
Smokin Joe
07-17-2006, 18:17
mugwump,
I talked to our tech today. He said go with Satellite phones and or Satellite radio's. With a trans(something or rather) the Sat radio's can tie into your local LEO's Comm's (no matter what they have). He also said to check out the APCO conference in Orlando 8/6/06 thru 8/10/06 more info here: http://www.apcointl.org/
In addition to, if you want to PM me your e-mail address or phone number he said he would be more than happy to chat more about all this stuff with you one on one instead of having my ignorant ass screw up the translation.
HTH,
J
Smokin Joe,
Thanks for the help, appreciate it.
PM out.
mugwump
Just thought I'd let you know what we came up with.
6528
We decided on using Motorola GP300 w/ Motorola Conditioning Charger (MCC) and a Cigarette Lighter Adapter Cord. The GP300 is obsolescent but still maintained as a backup by the village. It's simple, rugged and reliable. We got two reconditioned sets off of EBay for a song and the water guys have gotten hold of a couple units for use at their end. We've tested the range and all looks good.
I thought long and hard about Peregrino's "grey man" comment and decided it was very good advice. We are officially "off the books" but qualified to act as volunteers. We will talk on the phone if it looks like something is starting up and will confirm our prearranged contact schedule and channels.
To conserve power we will monitor a channel twice daily. I have a Brunton solar roll and generator to keep a 12V marine battery charged and the 12V auto charger will keep the GP300 going. They will only contact us if it's worth the risk (they have sufficient fuel for the generators, etc.) We are a "yellow sticky" on the emergency contact list -- as I said, available under the right circumstances but not officially.
It's not a bulletproof plan by any stretch ("One is none" with the comms; what if the water goes down and I can't raise anyone, maybe there's fuel but no one to squawk, etc.) but it's my deep hope it'll never be used anyway.
Thanks for all the advice everyone.
mugwump