Vertical Grips

[Roguish Lawyer]

I was discussing this with TS over the weekend and thought I'd start a thread.

Is using a forward vertical grip on a rifle ergonomically superior to supporting the barrel with an upward palm? TS pointed out that when you turn your wrist sideways to grip a vertical grip, you are changing the muscles you are using to support the weight of the front of the weapon -- more forearm and less bicep, I think. Biceps generally are stronger than forearms, so are you creating more work for yourself (and possibly sacrificing some accuracy and wasting energy) by using a vertical grip?

What do you think? :munchin

[NousDefionsDoc]

I was trained without them and now I use them. What TS says is right, but I don't grip it hard enough to make a difference between the forearm and bicep (the rifle weighs about 8 pounds - a gurl could hold it). With training you get used to it.

Since I have started using them, I have grown to love them.

They do get in the way of prone and supported at times.

I run mine as far foward as I can. I have arms like an ape.

You can really crank that barrel around in a vicious arc with a VFG too - if the need should every arise to adjust the attitude of someone the ROE don't allow shooting.

I would advise you to get one and give both ways an honest try and see which you like better.

[Roguish Lawyer]

I would advise you to get one and give both ways an honest try and see which you like better.

Thanks. I have one now -- pictures here:

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=126436&postcount=310

[NousDefionsDoc]

Learn to wear gloves yet?:munchin

You have to remember what the tool was designed for, and use it appropriately. They also add a little weight, and you can overload yourself.

I like them for the work I do. others may not.

And the end of the day, it's your bullet launcher.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Learn to wear gloves yet?:munchin


Not yet. But I am the acorn that becomes the oak! :)

[NousDefionsDoc]

Not yet. But I am the acorn that becomes the oak! :)
You will need to with a grip that aggressive. I am using SWMS now. A little expensive, but very, very nice gloves.

[Roguish Lawyer]

You will need to with a grip that aggressive. I am using SWMS now. A little expensive, but very, very nice gloves.

Which ones?

http://www.southwestmotorsports.com/products.htm

[NousDefionsDoc]

I am using the Maxgrip NTs. Mostly because of the bangs. Probably more than you need.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Thanks, NDD.

[NousDefionsDoc]

No problem.

[HOLLiS]

I notice that the standing position that is being taught to day is different than what I learned.

We were taught that one should be able to shoot a rifle one handed. That was the foundation of forming a solid shooting platform. The right elbow would be up and the arm pulling the rifle into the shoulder.

I noticed now elbows are down.

The left arm supported the rifle, The upper arm would be snug against the chest, Hand palm up supported the rifle under the mag. We were told having the arm extended was not as stable.

Obviously a fore grip would not be used in this situation. I was trained on the M14. This technique seem to work well with the M16.

Is the new style because of the M4 physical characteristics are that much different?

[The Reaper]

I like vertical foreend grips for CQB rifles.

SWMS is owned by Camelbak now.

TR

[NousDefionsDoc]

I notice that the standing position that is being taught to day is different than what I learned.

We were taught that one should be able to shoot a rifle one handed. That was the foundation of forming a solid shooting platform. The right elbow would be up and the arm pulling the rifle into the shoulder.

I noticed now elbows are down.

The left arm supported the rifle, The upper arm would be snug against the chest, Hand palm up supported the rifle under the mag. We were told having the arm extended was not as stable.

Obviously a fore grip would not be used in this situation. I was trained on the M14. This technique seem to work well with the M16.

Is the new style because of the M4 physical characteristics are that much different?

The elbows are down because we got tired of bashing them into doorways.;)

I think the rest of it can be attributed to different mission and environment. The other 7 are still the same.

[gaijinsamurai]

Personally, I've never liked vertical foregrips. I got out just after my unit switched from the M16A2 to the M4, with all it's attachments, so didn't really have an opportunity to use them in training. I never wanted them on my personal AR-15-type rifles either. They just aren't comfortable.

[Max_Tab]

I run mine as far foward as I can. I have arms like an ape.

You can really crank that barrel around in a vicious arc with a VFG too - if the need should every arise to adjust the attitude of someone the ROE don't allow shooting.



Two groups of thought on that, I was tought, that you want the vertical foregrips as far back as possible, so you get a more supported platform to shoot from. But I have heard that some other units are teaching to have them all the way foreward, so you can acquire targets faster.

I don't have long hands, so keeping it close works for me. Now if I had a 10 inch barrel I might push it out a little.

[Razor]

While the forearm is supporting some of the weight of the weapon's barrel/foregrip/attachments, by pulling slightly rearward you're also using your lats and rear delts, which helps prevent fatigue.

[Team Sergeant]

Two groups of thought on that, I was tought, that you want the vertical foregrips as far back as possible, so you get a more supported platform to shoot from. But I have heard that some other units are teaching to have them all the way foreward, so you can acquire targets faster.

I don't have long hands, so keeping it close works for me. Now if I had a 10 inch barrel I might push it out a little.

I'd tend to agree with this train of thought.

I've found it difficult to "index" from tgt to tgt while using a V-grip. It's much smoother/faster when just the palm of the support hand is under the upper receiver.

TS

[B 2/75]

I'm no big-time door kicker, but I did give the fore grip a serious trial in OIF 1. Started out with a full size M4A1 with an ACOG and vgrip and in the end carried an 11" M4A1 with just a trijicon reflex on it. Nothing else. Perhaps I just couldn't get past the "strangeness" of the foregrip, despite having putzed for a few years with an M1A on an M14E2 stock having the foregrip. Having the clean forestock just makes for better hands-on control, it seems.

[Smokin Joe]

You can really crank that barrel around in a vicious arc with a VFG too - if the need should every arise to adjust the attitude of someone the ROE don't allow shooting.


This is the category I operate the most in. Very seldom can we shoot someone so for me the VFG turns the barrel into a hell of an impact weapon. I'm currently trying one out. I have not yet decided if I like it or not.

[Gene Econ]

I'm no big-time door kicker, but I did give the fore grip a serious trial in OIF 1. Started out with a full size M4A1 with an ACOG and vgrip and in the end carried an 11" M4A1 with just a trijicon reflex on it. Nothing else. Perhaps I just couldn't get past the "strangeness" of the foregrip, despite having putzed for a few years with an M1A on an M14E2 stock having the foregrip. Having the clean forestock just makes for better hands-on control, it seems.

B 2/75:

Joe tends to pull the barrel down when using a 'gangsta-grip'. Most of the guys we dealt with who started out any course with one soon took it off. Damn things would come loose and cause a bunch of problems getting hung up on gear and etc. Looks cool though.

Paid a visit to 2/75 last week to talk with the BC for a minute.

Gene

[militarymoron]

disclaimer: civilian shooter here.

i've started to use a vertical grip with the hold shown below, instead of wrapping my whole hand around the grip like i did when i first started using it. the hand supports the forend but allows you to pull back on it at the same time. the thumb forward is just like the support hand thumb-forward when shooting a pistol - pointing at the target to help indexing.

[CharlesArbuckle]

As a general thing I do not use one, the exception is where a light, peq2, etc. is taking all the space up. Weapon setup is an individual thing, with the mission driving the gear. Having said that, you will have more control, and therefore better able to "drive" the gun gripping as far forward as possible. Think of sweeping with a broom. You dont sweep with your hands close together, you get them all the way down on the handle. For pure shooting speed, you will shoot faster without one. If you must use one, put it as far out on the rail as possible, with your thumb on the weak side pointing forward and your hand pulling straight back. YMMV.

[Team Sergeant]

As a general thing I do not use one, the exception is where a light, peq2, etc. is taking all the space up. Weapon setup is an individual thing, with the mission driving the gear. Having said that, you will have more control, and therefore better able to "drive" the gun gripping as far forward as possible. Think of sweeping with a broom. You dont sweep with your hands close together, you get them all the way down on the handle. For pure shooting speed, you will shoot faster without one. If you must use one, put it as far out on the rail as possible, with your thumb on the weak side pointing forward and your hand pulling straight back. YMMV.

Charles,

You have been asked by more than one Special Forces soldier what you do in B-1/20. You have yet to answer.

We have cooks, clerks and mechanics etc. assigned to Special Forces. Before you post on this board again you will clarify your job title and qualifications.

If you are Special Forces qualified just say so. If you are mechanic, private, assigned to 20th SFG, again, let us know.

Don't post again until you inform one of the Special Forces administrators.

Team Sergeant

[Basicload]

MM,

Although I am happy to see that you are using "thumbs forward" on your assault rifle, I am discouraged to see your light location to support that grip.

It is a common error for shooters that switch to thumbs forward to keep their light in the same place that it was when they used to "choke the chicken".

If you have to make major changes to your shooting position to use your gadgets then it jacks up your muscle memory.

I would recommend that a left handed shooter using a push button, locate their light in the 3, 4, or 5 oclock position.

Good to see you on here brother!

[militarymoron]

basic,
thanks for the good advice, as always. that's an older pic - i switched the lights to the 3 o'clock position after adopting the thumb forward hold and discovering what you predicted: it wasn't a good idea to switch holds to activate the light.
also ditched all tape switches on the vertical and offset adapters.
thanks for taking the time to point it out - it's much appreciated.

[Team Sergeant]

also ditched all tape switches on the vertical and offset adapters.


Why?

The only reason IMO to have a vertical grip is it provides a good place for a tape switch.

TS

[Basicload]

TS,

Many shooters are dumping tape switches on lights for push buttons, especially if the tape switch is the only way to turn the light on. Tape switches are not as reliable as buttons as a general rule. There is also the factor of white light AD's and the need to turn the light to constant on.

I use a surefire classic 6V tac light with a push button cap. If I get into a deliberate clearing phase I can go constant on which allows me to run the rifle with one hand while I open foot lockers, over turn furnature, or whatever.

I had to clear the back of a military truck (5-ton) once when I was still running a tape switch and when I grabbed the tail gate to steady myself while standing on my buddy's back I could not keep my light turned on.

I agree that VFG's are great for securing tape switches but I only run my laser switch on them now (and I carry an extra laser switch in my arm pocket).

The problem with button lights is that they are normally offset to the left or right of bore and I prefer to keep my "under gun light" under my gun. I have a front grip that actually houses my light and the button protrudes out of the back end of the grip. my light and grip do not fight for 6 Oclock rail space and my light stays under my rifle to minimize shadows thrown by my barrel/rail blocking my light.

Here is a pic of an old M-4A1 set up that I was running several years ago. I run the same grip on my assault rifle now.

[militarymoron]

TS, basicload answered it better than i could. basically, i didn't find tape switch activation very positive when mounted on the vert grip - sometimes i'd activate it when i didn't want to, and sometimes it wouldn't come on exactly when i wanted it to. i found thumb activation with offset mount, or now at 3 o'clock with the thumb-forward (i'm a lefty) more positive as i was using only the thumb to control the switch on the light, instead of the whole hand. my grip pressure on the vertical remains more constant/consistent. also, with the momentary/click on tailcaps like the SF Scout, you can have constant on if needed, as basicload pointed out.

edited to add: just wanted to reiterate that i'm a civvie shooter for those who don't know me. what works best for me for shooting as a hobby/fun may have no merit in the military world, but just in the offchance it might, i share my limited experience here.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Hayzus MM, stop apologizing!;)

[Smokin Joe]

Now that you guys mention it I'm starting to realize the same issue with my tape switch, I just thought I was either man handling the VFG or being to much of a sissy with it.

Son-of-a-bitch, now I'm going to have to jack with my rifle somemore. Why is it that everytime I think I have a good configuration worked out you guys post some insight and I have to rework my for end to make it better Oh well beats reading my general orders of SOP's I guess I'll have to go fiddle with my rifle somemore. :cool:

[The Reaper]

TS,
I have a front grip that actually houses my light and the button protrudes out of the back end of the grip. my light and grip do not fight for 6 Oclock rail space and my light stays under my rifle to minimize shadows thrown by my barrel/rail blocking my light.

Here is a pic of an old M-4A1 set up that I was running several years ago. I run the same grip on my assault rifle now.

Why not just run the M900 vertical weapons light?

TR

[Basicload]

Reaper,

I tested the 900A for my former unit and I was not that impressed. Sure Fire built that light to fill a SOF requirement for that capability.

The 900 was a large light, but it had several nice features. It is 9V so it is rather bright. Brighter than my light. The LED lights (navigation lights if you talk to a SEAL, breacher's light if you talk to an Army SOF guy) are a nice feature as well.

I did not like the size. The light took up a lot of rail space and interfered with prone sling supported fire. The housing was plastic and I snapped off the grip while muzzle striking. The tape switch embedded in the grip is right where I like my laser switch. I also considered it very sensitive and AD'd the light often while evaluating it.

In the end I did not care for the light as much as this arms room manufactued mount that I run. Its not a bad light though. I wish that the construction was more durable.

Sorry for the slow response.

[JimW]

I run vertical grips on all my teams AR’s. For CQB they improve control over the weapon and speed of movement of the weapon. However, I have found that using a VG for precision shooting at distance while standing or kneeling is not as stable as lightly gripping the forend and keeping the palm pointed up. Less muscle on the gun equals less movement, but equates to less recoil control. It’s a trade off. How I shoot will depend on the shot required. For CQB I want to hit fast and shoot multiple rounds so I use the VG. For distance I move the support hand forward and rest the rifle on the palm. Both techniques have pros and cons. Proficiency with both and the knowledge to know when to use them will make you a better all around shooter.

I’ll add that when using a VG I run the support hand thumb forward. I am right handed so this means the support thumb is on the left side of the weapon.

[TF Kilo]

When I carried a "normal" M4, I would have one.

I would typically put the taclight's pressure pad (issued surefire) inbetween rails on the left side of the rifle, use high temp zipties to hold it on. That precluded the whole visible light AD thing to a good extent. If I had one, I'd put a scope cover on it as well to prevent it more... 9 times out of 10 we weren't visible light, so I had other things to take care of that..

I'd use the button pressure switch vs the pad, thinned and rounded with a dremel, then bike innertube to hold it in place on the front grip so I could "pull the trigger" on the front and get what I wanted.

Then, when I went to play in stryker land, the TL's carried the 203's. Yay. Back to magwell front grip with pad's epoxyed to the trigger mechanism of the 203. Taclight was rear button on the left hand side for ease of thumb actuation.

My carbine I have now sitting upstairs has a surefire TL3, mounted underneath the barrel, to where my left index finger's knuckle can actuate it. The mount is sexy though. Basically, it's a easily detatched light off a mount that stays on the rifle. Good for the "where the heck did that go" when I don't have a light easily accessable.

It's mounted pretty far back, because that's where I prefer to keep my front grip, and allows me to still assume a "normal" prone position if I want.

I *do* wish that I had been able to get a front grip like I have on my carbine, back when I was still in. Just being able to keep spare batteries in it, plus the option of mounting pressure pad's in the sides would have been something I would have appreciated.

Pic here (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6600&d=1155556737)

[NousDefionsDoc]

When I carried a "normal" M4, I would have one.

I would typically put the taclight's pressure pad (issued surefire) inbetween rails on the left side of the rifle, use high temp zipties to hold it on. That precluded the whole visible light AD thing to a good extent. If I had one, I'd put a scope cover on it as well to prevent it more... 9 times out of 10 we weren't visible light, so I had other things to take care of that..

I'd use the button pressure switch vs the pad, thinned and rounded with a dremel, then bike innertube to hold it in place on the front grip so I could "pull the trigger" on the front and get what I wanted.

Then, when I went to play in stryker land, the TL's carried the 203's. Yay. Back to magwell front grip with pad's epoxyed to the trigger mechanism of the 203. Taclight was rear button on the left hand side for ease of thumb actuation.

My carbine I have now sitting upstairs has a surefire TL3, mounted underneath the barrel, to where my left index finger's knuckle can actuate it. The mount is sexy though. Basically, it's a easily detatched light off a mount that stays on the rifle. Good for the "where the heck did that go" when I don't have a light easily accessable.

It's mounted pretty far back, because that's where I prefer to keep my front grip, and allows me to still assume a "normal" prone position if I want.

I *do* wish that I had been able to get a front grip like I have on my carbine, back when I was still in. Just being able to keep spare batteries in it, plus the option of mounting pressure pad's in the sides would have been something I would have appreciated.

Pic here (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6600&d=1155556737)

Where the hell have you been?

[TF Kilo]

here and there... more in pm...

[The Reaper]

My carbine I have now sitting upstairs has a surefire TL3, mounted underneath the barrel, to where my left index finger's knuckle can actuate it.

Pic here (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6600&d=1155556737)

That does not appear to be any SureFire I have ever seen.

The knuckle activation is very difficult under pressure (one finger moving forward as the other hand is moving in the opposite direction on the fire controls), you must have spent a lot of time working with it to master that technique.

TR

[TF Kilo]

That does not appear to be any SureFire I have ever seen.

The knuckle activation is very difficult under pressure (one finger moving forward as the other hand is moving in the opposite direction on the fire controls), you must have spent a lot of time working with it to master that technique.

TR

The eagle eye catches all!

My bad. Streamlight TL-3. "Thunder Ranch" model, cheapest off the shelf option that incorporated both a light and rail mount all in one.

I indexed it close enough to where it's more of a torquing of the grip without much of a push to activate. Works good for my purposes, still debating about a pressure pad for it. Installing one would negate the ease of removal for other than weapon mounted use.

Of course, purchasing a seperate light would solve that issue... Usually I just go for the Streamlight XTKP rechargable I keep in the blazer, or then there's the "God Light" my 15 millon candlepower spot I have for testing morse code against the martians... :)

[The Reaper]

I believe that the majority of IR tip off covers that are purchased are used to prevent white light NDs. The downside is that they are expensive.

The budget solution is to use a Butler Creek tip off scope cap. Some people punch a pinhole in the center to permit its use at a much reduced level for a breacher's or navigation light.

LaRue makes a nice QD light mount that drops the light to make thumb activation at the 4:00 and 8:00 position easier.

TR

[TF Kilo]

yep, the butler creek caps work great. At least until something has the good fortune pre-mission to melt a hole straight through it by turning it on.

Bad side effect of vertical frontgrip pressure switches.. LOL

[Cincinnatus]

Has any played with mounting a light at the 6 o'clock position with something like the YMT triple mount and activating the tailcap by sliding the hand up the handguard against it? I've not tried this, and would be concerned about accidentally turning on the light, but have wondered about this method as an inexpensive way of putting a light on an AR in what would seem to be a position.

[TF Kilo]

Without a vertical grip? you're better off at the 5 or 7 depending on lefty righty so you can engage it with your thumb then. Just what I have seen and tried to do.

[Smokin Joe]

I have a Surefire Scout light. I just switched out the tape switch to the push button because I experienced 2 white light AD's while looking for 2 bad dudes the other night.

[jatx]

Has any played with mounting a light at the 6 o'clock position with something like the YMT triple mount and activating the tailcap by sliding the hand up the handguard against it? I've not tried this, and would be concerned about accidentally turning on the light, but have wondered about this method as an inexpensive way of putting a light on an AR in what would seem to be a position.

You could mount something like a Streamlight TLR-2. They are lightweight and the tape switches will be available next month. How much light do you need?

[82ndtrooper]

I was trained without them and now I use them. What TS says is right, but I don't grip it hard enough to make a difference between the forearm and bicep (the rifle weighs about 8 pounds - a gurl could hold it). With training you get used to it.

Since I have started using them, I have grown to love them.

They do get in the way of prone and supported at times.

I run mine as far foward as I can. I have arms like an ape.

You can really crank that barrel around in a vicious arc with a VFG too - if the need should every arise to adjust the attitude of someone the ROE don't allow shooting.

I would advise you to get one and give both ways an honest try and see which you like better.


What about a veritcal grip that serves as a quick release BI-POD ? I do not own one, dont need it, but reports thus far from the ground pounders that are using them are "Love Affair" for them. This would solve some of the problems discussed in this thread regarding going to the "Prone" position, and using your mag as a semi-pseudo mono pod.

it's here > www.grippod.com

[Cincinnatus]

jatx,

I've got an older SureFire Millenium light, IIRC (M-4 type handguard w/ 3 [123] battery light mounted at about two o'clock, pressure pad on the handguard, dial switch for constant/ intermittent/ off behind the light), it's very bright, totally reliable, on the heavy side and was quite pricey. I was thinking about the things I didn't like; the weight, the light at 2 o'clock vs. 6 o'clock, and the price, and wondering about a cheap way of accomplishing the same functionality.

I've also been reading posts by different folks about the best way to grip the forend/ handguard on various boards... So it boils down to idle ruminations and wondering if anyone had tried using the YMT rail, scope rings and a light at six o'clock and how that had worked.

[Peregrino]

Cincinnatus - Try rotating your M500 to the bottom handguard position. Then replace the SureFire handguard half with a standard (skinny, single heat shield) carbine handguard for the top position. It'll put the light at 8 o'clock, eliminate the shadow below your line of sight, clear your FOV for traversing right, and still leave the controls accessible to your left thumb. The only issue is sling position. Work-arounds aren't that difficult. FWIW - Peregrino

[Cincinnatus]

Thanks. I'll give that a try.

[Team Sergeant]

As a general thing I do not use one, the exception is where a light, peq2, etc. is taking all the space up. Weapon setup is an individual thing, with the mission driving the gear. Having said that, you will have more control, and therefore better able to "drive" the gun gripping as far forward as possible. Think of sweeping with a broom. You dont sweep with your hands close together, you get them all the way down on the handle. For pure shooting speed, you will shoot faster without one. If you must use one, put it as far out on the rail as possible, with your thumb on the weak side pointing forward and your hand pulling straight back. YMMV.



Charles,

You have been asked by more than one Special Forces soldier what you do in B-1/20. You have yet to answer.

We have cooks, clerks and mechanics etc. assigned to Special Forces. Before you post on this board again you will clarify your job title and qualifications.

If you are Special Forces qualified just say so. If you are mechanic, private, assigned to 20th SFG, again, let us know.

Don't post again until you inform one of the Special Forces administrators.

Team Sergeant

It took a while but now I do know that Mr. Arbuckle is NOT a Special Forces soldier and has never been to the Special Forces Qualification Course.:rolleyes:

I would guess thats also why he's never returned.;)

TS

[Irish_Army01]

There is, as you Guys are well Aware a built in Fore Grip on the Styer that we in the Irish Defence Force's use..I've never liked it or used it and prefere to use the trigger guard to hold as stability, and find my accuracy is better than holding the grip standing,kneeling or prone..

I've never fired the M4 series of weapons so I won't comment on how the grip performs.

In saying that, the dynamics change when you have a 203 slung under your rifle.

[MeC86]

Anyone tried out this angled foregrip from Magpul.

http://store.magpul.com/product/64/100

[C0B2A]

I have the Magpul AFG on my AR and I love it. Very ergonomic design, very comfortable with easy good positive control over the weapon. Great addition to my setup.

[kgoerz]

I have the Magpul AFG on my AR and I love it. Very ergonomic design, very comfortable with easy good positive control over the weapon. Great addition to my setup.

We teach the Students here not to put a full Grip on the FVG. It makes the shooter pull the Weapon to the side.
I just ordered two AFG'S. one for my work Weapon and one for my new M4 i'm picking up Saturday. Ill let you know what I think. But from the on line reviews so far. They are the Tits.

[Echo]

To those using the AFG: how much of an advantage, and of what nature, do you find it offers over a competition type or C-clamp grip, which instructors such as Kyle Lamb advocate?

Thanks.

[jatx]

I have been using the new Troy grip in stubby mode and really like it. It is very solid and well-made. Something to consider...

[MeC86]

Picked up a magpul Angled fore grip and I love it.

Felt like it put my support arm at a more comfortable position allowing for a tighter hold and quicker follow up shots. Not much difference for me as far as the first shot went.

Good piece of equipment.

[Iraqgunz]

I have been using the Troy foregrip with the ADM QD mount and I like them. I use the both the stubby and standard size. I mount mine all the way forward and I have noticed that I can acquire a target faster.

I recently put a Troy modular aluminum grip on my wifes carbine and it works good also. It will let you switch from standard size to stubby in just a few seconds. Someone had them on eBay for 54.00.

16074

[ccrn]

Was at SFBCC a few weeks ago and the instructors there are not using the verticle grips. Most of them did have the AFG at the very end of the rifle and some had it mounted on the side.

I took my Larue vertigle grip off for most of this course so I could emulate them but did end up throwing it back on for the couple of days running simms through the shoot house.

So much to learn and use....

[Animal8526]

When I first got to the desert the quick and dirty CQB class from the MPRI guys never mentioned a proper grip to use while a VFG was mounted. Most guys went "full retard" just because it seemed that that's what it was for.

Now days, I've found that the most effective way for me to use a VFG is to just use it as an index point to emulate the magwell grip from. This works well on my shorter AR without a ton of weight up front. If I had more weight riding forward on the weapon I'd push the grip out a little further to keep me from fighting the inertia during quick left/right target transitions.

The magpul AFG has me interested, but I really need to get my hands on one before I drop the $30 on it, as I'm too broke to be spending money on anything but ammo for practice. I've found that most magpul products end up doing everything I want and more, so I'm not that concerned, but again, $30 is a bit of coin to someone who is out of work.

I'd like to hear any more feedback from guys using the AFG.

[Hardluck77]

One of the guys on my team bought an AFG for our OEF-A PMT and a month later when we deployed 75% of the team were running them. Personally, I love mine. It gives you a solid grip but still allows you to get that non-firing hand thumb as far over the bore as possible, which dramatically reduces time needed to re-aquire for follow up shots, as well as tightens up your group. Just keep in mind that you have to train with it regularly... and the importance of learning better shooting techniques far outweigh the importance of what kind of accessories you're running. If you ever have a chance to go to the magpul shooting school that they run all over the country, jump on it, or at least give the DVDs a try. They do a pretty good job of teaching competition shooting techniques with combat marksmanship and tactical awareness in mind. Just my 2 cents.

[Ramirez]

Well, after reading these reviews I'm going to give my magpul some real work.
Maybe it's just something I'm going to have to get used to.

[Pete S]

..... or at least give the DVDs a try. They do a pretty good job of teaching competition shooting techniques with combat marksmanship and tactical awareness in mind. Just my 2 cents.

Not to derail to much, I do like the Magpul DVD series but those videos present techniques..... not teach them.
I use them as reference guides.

I have run multiple style VFG's and have tried the new AFG.
I like it.
What I would like is an AFG with a high output weapon light on the front and tape switches on the sides. Maybe two small LED's also.
Consolidate it all in one package.
The next evolution of the M900 series.

For now I roll with an AFG and a Surefire G2 LED on the left side of the barrel, in line with the rail, as far forward as possible.
I shift my hand slightly forward and am able to hit the button without to much inconsistency in my non firing hand position.

Grip pods, I hate them.
A Harris bipod with a stubby VFG are insanely better.
Not as awkward and much more reliable.

[Ramirez]

Not to derail to much, I do like the Magpul DVD series but those videos present techniques..... not teach them.
I use them as reference guides.

I have run multiple style VFG's and have tried the new AFG.
I like it.
What I would like is an AFG with a high output weapon light on the front and tape switches on the sides. Maybe two small LED's also.
Consolidate it all in one package.
The next evolution of the M900 series.

For now I roll with an AFG and a Surefire G2 LED on the left side of the barrel, in line with the rail, as far forward as possible.
I shift my hand slightly forward and am able to hit the button without to much inconsistency in my non firing hand position.

Grip pods, I hate them.
A Harris bipod with a stubby VFG are insanely better.
Not as awkward and much more reliable.



That's my issue. I had a surefire in front of my VFG. I could just tap it with my knuckle and then had no issue. Even if I put it on the left side I could reach up and touch it while it gripping the VFG.

With the AFG my hands grip around the left side of the barrel, so I don't have any place other than the right side to put the light. I see some people running it on top, but I don't have a riser for my EOTech and also have a front sight post/gasblock.

[Hardluck77]

...and also have a front sight post/gasblock.

Yeah I run a 10.3" shorty so there is nothing on top but railspace. With a 16" standard M4 you have less rail length & a front sight post which limits your options.