View Full Version : The Legion
Didn't they used to call the 5th...The Legion.........?
Didn't they used to call the 5th...The Legion.........?
I was in 5th Group from 74 to 87. All of that was in 3rd Battalion. In all that time I don't remember "The Professionals" or "The Legion" in general use.
When I came back to 5th Group in 93 I began hearing "The Legion". I think I first recall it said by the Group Commander and then by a few others here and there. Again, it was not in general use but everybody at that time knew that it refered to 5th Group as a whole.
Knowing a word is related to a Group and then using it everyday are two different things.
Anyway, that's how I remember it.
Pete
Peregrino
06-23-2006, 20:34
Didn't they used to call the 5th...The Legion.........?
They still do. It's internal to the Group/community, I wouldn't recommend throwing it around like one of the cogniscenti. FWIW - Peregrino
In '68 the CO of C-3 or A Company 5th Grp began referring to said C Team as "The Professionals" both in word and in print.
I have always had a personal fascination with "The Legion" and don't think of it being a good comparison or point of reference to any SF.
They would compare well with rangers as a unit.
My .02 Dong
SERPENT5XX
07-09-2006, 21:02
Gentlemen,
I believe the “legion” reference began shortly after Desert Storm. Most guys on the Teams never really used the term, it seemed to be mostly used by BN and Grp types, especially the various Group CDR’s.
Take care,
SERPENT5XX
badcarma
07-09-2006, 21:38
Yes, they call it that most of the FOGs say it, matter afact i heard it just the other day.
Yes, they call it that most of the FOGs say it, matter afact i heard it just the other day.
GEE, SEPENT5XX, I guess that last post sure put us in our place in life's line.:D
Pete
zinger531
07-10-2006, 12:40
Guys,
From what I understand, the term “The Legion” was started with the 5th and 77th, and then rarely used, I agree that the use was mostly at the BN and Group levels, but not as a normal reference and never outside SF. Here is my recollection which is dated.
The first, I heard the reference was at a SFA while talking to Pete Petersen (77th SFG) now this was a long time, and having consumed the normal amount of libations, anyway Pete told me this long sorted story, so here is the quick and dirty: The reference to SF and the 5th specifically as “The Legion” came from the results of a tough mission, that was executed using the primary plan (this would have been a first) by a short handed ODA, very efficiently and this mission was taken because the Regular Army guys could not step up. The regular Army Brass said that it would take a “Legion” to complete the mission, months to plan, and then the threat would be gone, so the 5th Group Commander stepped forward, saying Bull Shit, my guys can do it, in three weeks and that only one ODA was needed, so they planned, executed, and completed the mission in two weeks and five days, so the reference “The Legion” was born this was in 62 or 63. Pete thought using “the Legion” was over the top, but he was from the 77th and they were never over the top, were they? So to close this commentary, the Group and BN Commanders loved using the term “The Legion” as SF Teams always are doing what others consider are impossible missions. So, that’s the story and I’m sticking to it!
SERPENT5XX
07-10-2006, 15:41
Zinger531,
Sounds like a good story to me! I'll buy that!
Take care,
SERPENT5XX
badcarma
07-10-2006, 16:47
don't get me wrong Pete I'd follow an FOG into a hot LZ any day and be honored. Nothing but respect for you gents.
Sounds like a credible explanation but then who cares what you call them. You are going to get your butt kicked no matter what you call them.
NousDefionsDoc
07-27-2006, 17:53
don't get me wrong Pete I'd follow an FOG into a hot LZ any day and be honored. Nothing but respect for you gents.
Hush.
NousDefionsDoc
07-27-2006, 17:54
Sounds like a credible explanation but then who cares what you call them. You are going to get your butt kicked no matter what you call them.
Then why did you ask the question in the first place? You hush too.
badcarma
07-27-2006, 21:07
SORRY NDD Ill hush now:(
LongWire
09-18-2006, 23:03
Hmmm......I thought it all stemmed out of the Movie Gladiator!!!!!!!!
Seems like right after that movie came out, all the Commanders and staff started to bandy "The Legion" around, along with "Strength and Honor!!!!!!!!"
I guess it was just a reincarnation!!!!!!!
coldbreathers
09-20-2006, 14:33
edit by Team Sergeant.... this one is gone.
LongWire
09-24-2006, 12:49
edit by Team Sergeant.... this one is gone.
Probably a good thing............
edit by Team Sergeant.... this one is gone.
Must be a real legion problem! HEEE:lifter
Sounds like a credible explanation but then who cares what you call them. You are going to get your butt kicked no matter what you call them.
What do you mean by butt kicked?:lifter It doesn't fit the context.:lifter
x SF med
10-03-2006, 12:59
Must be a real legion problem! HEEE:lifter
2nd warning.
Read the stickies.
Fill out your profile.
Don't be a smartass unless you can back it up.
You are making yourself a target, and there are some Interdiction Specialists that are gonna eat you for a friggin snack.
Shut up and read.
"Interdiction Specialists"....Dang I like that one.....
Farmer40
10-15-2006, 08:16
Don't know anything about the 5th being referred to as "The Legion" but I do have a 5th Group coin, given to us in 1971, with "The Professionals" cast around the outer rim.
Marauder06
11-01-2006, 09:26
I was only in 5th Group for a couple of years as a support guy, I don't know what was done before or since but I heard both of my Group commanders repeatedly refer to 5th Group as "The Legion." I think COL Pagan addressed us as "The Legion" in his farewell speech, but I'm not certain.
Attached is the coin the Group commander and CSM passed out in OEF II. On the front it says "Strength and Honor," and on the back it says "Task Force Legion." The CJSOTF West coin (not posted) says "Desert Legion" on the front and "Task Force Dagger" and "Strength and Honor" on the back. It also has a Roman numeral "V" incorporated into the design.
My understanding is that referring to 5th Group as "The Legion." and the motto "Strength and Honor" both predated the movie Gladiator.
SERPENT5XX
11-03-2006, 06:25
Mara,
I was in 5th from 84-87 and from 94-05. I NEVER heard the “Strength and Honor” phrase used before the movie “Gladiator”.
Take care,
SERPENT5XX
Team Sergeant
11-03-2006, 09:03
Mara,
I was in 5th from 84-87 and from 94-05. I NEVER heard the “Strength and Honor” phrase used before the movie “Gladiator”.
Take care,
SERPENT5XX
Roger,
I was there 83-87 and never heard the "Strength and Honor" phrase.
TS
bost1751
11-03-2006, 10:21
I was there from 82-84 and never heard it mentioned either. Most of that was when Bynum was Gp Cdr, then followed by Jim Guest. Seems we have a fairly good time frame covered on this board.
Marauder06
11-03-2006, 10:41
Mara,
I was in 5th from 84-87 and from 94-05. I NEVER heard the “Strength and Honor” phrase used before the movie “Gladiator”.
Take care,
SERPENT5XX
Roger.
Looks like our service overlapped a little (02-04).
LongWire
11-03-2006, 17:50
The Strength and Honor, definitely started up right after Gladiator came out..........I thought the Legion thing was another byproduct of that, I was wrong about that, but I was not about the Strength and Honor.
Matta mile
11-19-2006, 12:10
The only time I heard of the phrase in theater was from BG Dan Bolger who ran CMATT in 05' when I was there. It was part of his signature block. I dont know however if he was SF at one time or even a gladiator for that matter.:)
Marauder06
11-20-2006, 15:38
Then-LTC Bolger was my first battalion commander on active duty. Although he has a well=earned reputation for brilliance, I don't remember him being SF qualified or having any time in 5th Group. I didn't turn up anything about it in any of his bios (http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200661108005) I looked up online.
zipgunlead
01-31-2007, 00:51
I was in 5th Group for a while. I recall Col. Noe, Col. Paxton and Col. Mulholland using "The Legion" phrase during group formations and ceremonies. The Strength and Honor phrase started at Camp Stronghold Freedom I believe. The Group was issued coins that had this on it when we were part of TF Dagger. I gave mine to Mike Roof for his youngster.
As a short timer in 5th Group (1998-2001) I heard the phrase The Legion all the time...As for Chip Paxton....well I won't say it. On my retirement plaque it states from the men of the 5th Legion....I also got an "x-ray" of a hand with six fingers.....yes six fingers.....But that may have been a 1st Bn thing caused by inbreeding..... :)
Having had the honor of serving in several of our fine organizations I can say with some authority 5th Group is truely a special unit to have been part of!!! CSM-H
LongWire
10-21-2009, 11:42
I was in 5th Group for a while. I recall Col. Noe, Col. Paxton and Col. Mulholland using "The Legion" phrase during group formations and ceremonies. The Strength and Honor phrase started at Camp Stronghold Freedom I believe. The Group was issued coins that had this on it when we were part of TF Dagger. I gave mine to Mike Roof for his youngster.
It was being used well before Stronghold Freedom..............
I started hearing it right after the movie "Gladiator" came out, a good year and a half before "Stronghold Freedom" was envisioned..............
...who encouraged us to: "kill those bushels by the bastard-ful." Fortunately no one saw much of him once hostilities commenced. He loved him some "Strength and Honor."
The "Legion", how suiting. I was in 5th twice, from 82-87 then 96-99.
Now granted I was in two different roles, the first as a JR/SR commo, then the second as a TM SGT.
The first stint was at Bragg, grew up with some great folks, had a good time. The second of course was at Campbell (love the post BTW) as a TSGT.
It was very obvious that it was highly "regimentalized" with alot of 5th group only leadership. I could swear I was in RGR BN, that's all they knew.
I tried to inject some...."gasp" small unit JCETS, TM training, but they turned out to be company clusterfucks.
I wish the leadership (Co/Bn level SGM etc) had experienced life "outside" of the 5th. SF is a great thing, when ya get it smaller than company level....gee what a concept.
Attending TM SGT mtg's with the Co SGM and he wants to make all the tm rooms the same ie, all tm lockers stocked and locked, so if a guy goes from one tm to another, he could "find" something???????:eek:
Also, all LBV/LBE set up the same so everyone knows where everyones stuff is?????:eek:
C'mon, guys, we could handle that ourselves with our TM SOP.....
Frustrating to say the least.
I will hold 5th near and dear, since it was my first SF assignment, but boy.....has it changed.
Not all bad, I'm not downplaying them, they're doing what it takes to whack bad guys, so....carry on "legion"
A/3/5th SFG was my first assignment in SF. It is still my favorite assignment as it was the basis for my whole career. I met a lot of great people young and Old that set the tone for my future SF assignments. The Smoke Bomb Hill and the old division area just is not the same since 5th departed. Heard the term for the first time out a Bliss on my first DMV training trip......... Riding was much better than walking in that area.
Riding...what a concept...LOL.
When we first started the Desert Training Program (DTP) we were given a "few" mapsheets, an assload of water and directions of "go that way as best you can"....
We were always wondering....haven't these bone heads found their LRDG manuals/lessons learned shit.
I guess it finaly caught on, and they (they being B500 AKA the "GOD" squad (Guests' Operational Detachment) and the bunch started using these vehicles Fast V's and different variations of stuff or something like that. Damn things always broke the reverse gear, they were just some civilian stuff they tried to militarize.....eehhh, didn't work.
Anyone remember Dave Nicewander(sp?) RIP, he had that chevy 1/2 ton with duece 1/2 axles under it??? He also got a write-up in Army Times if I'm not mistaken...
Combat Diver
11-24-2010, 00:28
I remember the FSV ie 4 seat dune buggy that broke its reverse in Jordan in Mar 85'. Also remember jumping into DTP in 86' and walking, walking and some more walking just to get onto the map sheet.
CD
Enigma0122
11-24-2010, 06:36
Glebo, Dave N. and Frank Stonko and I hung out to together. We went through the Q course together then 5th Grp. RIP to both. After retiring, heard Frank Stonko was killed in a trucking accident out west.
As a short timer in 5th Group (1998-2001) I heard the phrase The Legion all the time...As for Chip Paxton....well I won't say it. On my retirement plaque it states from the men of the 5th Legion....I also got an "x-ray" of a hand with six fingers.....yes six fingers.....But that may have been a 1st Bn thing caused by inbreeding..... :)
Having had the honor of serving in several of our fine organizations I can say with some authority 5th Group is truely a special unit to have been part of!!! CSM-H
Ernie...six fingers wtf lol? What the hell was that about?
Bowra used the Legion thing all of the time and it trickled down, before he started that I didn't hear it very often and can't remember it at all in the early 80's.
Glebo, Dave N. and Frank Stonko and I hung out to together. We went through the Q course together then 5th Grp. RIP to both. After retiring, heard Frank Stonko was killed in a trucking accident out west.
yeah, both of them kinda got mixed up in the wrong crod...Nicewandr anyway. I think he got capped by some bad guys, or something along those lines.
He was a bit of a "strange sort" per sey. But RIP Dave, I'm sure you're building your "desert vehicle" somewhere...
PRB, I think the "Legion" thing got started after the 1st Gulf Was, if I'm not mistaken. I never heard it in the 80's either..
Happy Turkey Day to All:D:D
I gotta go get in the kitchen.....wife said so.......:rolleyes:
yeah, both of them kinda got mixed up in the wrong crod...Nicewandr anyway. I think he got capped by some bad guys, or something along those lines.
He was a bit of a "strange sort" per sey. But RIP Dave, I'm sure you're building your "desert vehicle" somewhere...
PRB, I think the "Legion" thing got started after the 1st Gulf Was, if I'm not mistaken. I never heard it in the 80's either..
Happy Turkey Day to All:D:D
I gotta go get in the kitchen.....wife said so.......:rolleyes:
Nicewander, hadn't heard his name in years....wish I had some pics of the vehicles we 'made' when we first started the desert thing. Hell, I'd a rode in a smart car after we tried walking across the desert to conduct ops. "Is it me or is that Mountain actually getting farther away"....
I think you are right about the Legion thing time wise.
........wish I had some pics of the vehicles we 'made' when we first started the desert thing. .........
Here is a picture of his truck in the background. Not a very good picture but I don't think you'll be able to find a better one.
Pete,
Thanks, what a hoot huh. I can't make out who's in the pic but some guys look familiar (kind of fuzzy blown up)...who's there?
I still have my first issue gortex cammy jacket like the one in the pic. That was magic gear in the day, high speed and all lol. Almost as cool as the Mott lake OD green shorts!
.......... I can't make out who's in the pic but some guys look familiar (kind of fuzzy blown up)........!
Those 110 instamatics didn't take very good pictures to begin with. Thats 575 with Nicewander and a support guy they attached to us for the survival FTX. Nicewander was dropping off one of our guys who couldn't do the movement into the survival area.
"The survival area"...ours was just a wide open desert area...I was on 595 at the time.
"The survival area"...ours was just a wide open desert area...I was on 595 at the time.
The first few survival FTXs were near this location. We were doing Company Traning and the B Team is in the background.
Talk about Desert Rats.
Looks very familiar. The worst survival area we exp was during the Jacobelly Oro Grande trip.
Out in nowhere with nothing, one of my two MRE's for the week was rotten/spoiled..man was I pissed at that...but there was a stock tank.
So we are watching all of these nice fat babies hoofing about, I was the Team Sgt and always had a loaded 45 with (for emergencies of course).
So we ate fresh steak starting the second day out.
When we exfilled to the Bn BBQ I told everyone "Now Goddammit, look hungry"
mojaveman
11-25-2010, 18:45
The first few survival FTXs were near this location. We were doing Company Traning and the B Team is in the background.
Talk about Desert Rats.
Nice pictures Pete. I believe I can name four people there. I sure wish I would have taken more. Was out there twice for training and remember that it was nice to get away from the flagpole once in awhile. We brang air rifles with us to keep ourselves amused when we weren't doing communications in the FOB.
Enigma0122
11-26-2010, 06:42
Glebo, both liked their guns (toys) as most of us did and spent alot of time in the dunes out at Spring Lake back in the day. Ya, Nicewander took Gunplay alittle far and was supposedly involved (accused), in some gunrunning below the border.
You could probably start a thread, just about them two and their escapades.
Gratefully, by that time I was down south with 7th and all but cut ties with both of them.
Didn't know Glebo, never in 7th GP. Knew Nicewander from the 509th in Italy before we were SF qual and then during the initial Desert stuff.
What exactly happened to him, heard rumors but nothing definitive.
Enigma0122
11-26-2010, 17:28
PRB. Dave was shot (multible times), to death. Don't remember which state it occured but seem to be out SouthWest i.e. New Mexico, Arizona. Rumor had it was a hit, dealing with his rumored activities. Maybe someone knows more than I.
My stint with Dave N was approximately 3 yrs initially in Tng Grp followed up with 5th Grp. We didn;t serve in the same Co or team but continued to hang out with him and Frank Stonko simply as likeness of weapons and shooting them.
After going to 7th down south, did not maintain comms with them. But did start hearing some rumors as to what DN was involved in. Then of course, his murder and possible connection to the above aforementioned.
Don't believe they ever solved the murder.
Enigma0122
11-26-2010, 17:37
Hey Pete, in the picture with you next to DN. Is that Fred Ross from 572 at one time? Recognize alot of the faces, as years go by the names seem to fade.
Damn Pete, that brought back some memories. I remember that "survival" exercise......that wasn't the same trip we did to prep for Bright Star, was it??
I remember going to "Orafice" Grande several times, I guess they all blend together now..:D
That may have been the trip that me, Joe Garcia and John(?) (the guy who got busted stealing the Chaplains cigs in Bright Star) got pretty hammered on Mescal and rolled down elephant mtn........what a hoot:eek:
We almost blew ourselves up trying to swap out one of those gaz stoves, we got hungry and were gonna make some ramen. Cpt Davis caught us, cussed us out, (Joe had a lit cig) and the gas bottle had a leak and was venting out.....
Yeah, the dumb 'ol days for sure:lifter
Dozer523
11-27-2010, 07:49
The first few survival FTXs were near this location. We were doing Company Traning and the B Team is in the background.
Talk about Desert Rats. I'm laughing about that picture. Reminded me of when we were at Bliss and RON-ing on the ranges (with snow in the forcast). We were all standing around with bungie cords in our hands wondering what the heck we were going to hook them on to raise our poncho hooches. Nice big stick you'all brunged.
I'm laughing about that picture. Reminded me of when we were at Bliss and RON-ing on the ranges (with snow in the forcast). We were all standing around with bungie cords in our hands wondering what the heck we were going to hook them on to raise our poncho hooches. Nice big stick you'all brunged.
True be told after the first trip there - and getting rained on between being burnt to a crisp - a lot of us went down to the hardware store and got some 1" or so PVC pipe with joints. Made six poles per set about - two bottoms with end caps, two middle pieces and two top pieces "Had holes at one end for a small rope loop). You could use all three to make a tall hooch - very unsteady - or two per end and the extra two pieces to raise up a side.
Very light and could be tied on a ruck just about anywhere.
And enigma1022 I'm second from the left, the guy third from the left was the support guy. I don't remember what his MOS was - the battalion figured some of them could use a little field time. Of course DN is in the Tigers.
Didn't know Glebo, never in 7th GP. Knew Nicewander from the 509th in Italy before we were SF qual and then during the initial Desert stuff.
What exactly happened to him, heard rumors but nothing definitive.
PRB, when were ya in the 509th?? I was there from 78-80 before I went through the Q course.
Pete, The guy sitting looking like he's biting/eating DN's hand looks like Jake Martin, and the shorter guy on the far right, with what looks like a stogie sort of resembles Ernie Gizoni, pictures a little fuzzy though....or could be my eyes....LOL
Glebo,
From 76-79 in the Nickle O Nasty...one of the best times I ever had. Initially in 3rd Plt C Co (SFC Cruz then Mad Mitch)..then talked the Bn Cmdr (Murphy) into creating a LRRP team assigned to the Recon Plt in CSC. Was the LRRP team daddy from 78-79. Had a ball...ah single E5 off post quarters with a silver 1962 Maserati....if I could only go back in time.
Saaaweeet PRB, I then was a wrench in the motor hole in HHC....
then a slick sleeve up to SP4 when I left...
It was a great time, and trips to some great places.
Jeselo in the summer....and Asiago and elswhere in the winter....couldn't beat it with a stick....maybe some sambuca...:D and warm Hienies on the beach:lifter.
I remember the trips to Graff, Hoenfelds, and places inbetween that we got kicked out of many an NCO club....with the BC present most of the time. Do you, or did you "participate" in the flaming asshole competition we had....I think it was Hoenfelds????
I think I went to Belgium in the summer of '80 with Co C, or Co A to get Belgium wings....another event to remember.
Great times
That was a ball!
I had a break in service from RVN..was an 11B and came back on active duty as an E5. Asked the recruiter where all the 11B P's could reenlist for and when he said 'Italy" I was all over it.
Back when you played hard and partied hard and it was all good. It was the NCO club at Wildflicken we were barred form because our Bn CSM (Spike) punched out another Bn CSM (Leg) and we all went at it like an old style Western! Throwin chairs doin the back to back punch everybody, what a hoot.
I had to take one of my guys to see the Bn Cmdr about weekly, Frank Kelley, then a SP4...He later went to 5th Gp as I did.
Man, that was a great assignment.
Either of you guys know a LT Harke?
Richard
mojaveman
11-29-2010, 17:18
That was a ball!
I had a break in service from RVN..was an 11B and came back on active duty as an E5. Asked the recruiter where all the 11B P's could reenlist for and when he said 'Italy" I was all over it.
Back when you played hard and partied hard and it was all good. It was the NCO club at Wildflicken we were barred form because our Bn CSM (Spike) punched out another Bn CSM (Leg) and we all went at it like an old style Western! Throwin chairs doin the back to back punch everybody, what a hoot.
I had to take one of my guys to see the Bn Cmdr about weekly, Frank Kelley, then a SP4...He later went to 5th Gp as I did.
Man, that was a great assignment.
Hey PRB,
Didn't know that you and Frank K. went back so far. Knew him in 3/5.
Sounds like you guys had fun in Wildflecken. More stories! More stories! :p:D
Yeah, Frank K was in my squad right out of Ranger school. I swear I kept him out of jail for the next 20 years lol!.
Had another young guy too 2LT Patreus.....his nick name was Peaches because his cheeks were always rosy. It was his first assignment.
Either of you guys know a LT Harke?
Richard
Sounds real familiar Richard, he wasn't an LT of mine but it rings a bell. I had Lt. Leroy Dunn too, great guy, went on to become a Col. in SF. Probably the best Lt I ever served with and I had a ton with 10 years in the Inf prior to SF.
The Reaper
11-29-2010, 18:09
Either of you guys know a LT Harke?
Richard
Herman Harke?
TR
Herman Harke?
TR
The one and only. He was an 05B in C/2-7th SFG before OCS and posting to the 509th circa '76-'78. I knew him in the 7th and used to visit him in Vicenza from Tolz.
Richard
Last hard class
11-29-2010, 20:06
I still have my first issue gortex cammy jacket like the one in the pic. That was magic gear in the day, high speed and all lol.
As I recall my first set of gortex were two sided (desert and woods)but only breathed one way. One side was water resistant and the other side sucked up water like a sponge when it rained. When we got to the Grand Orifice we were told to wear the desert side while in base camp. And then it rained...
Didn't they used to call the 5th...The Legion.........?
It was a Guest thing. He started that when we deployed on Bright Star in '83. Nobody else used it to my knowledge.
It was a Guest thing. He started that when we deployed on Bright Star in '83. Nobody else used it to my knowledge.
And IMHO he shouldn't of started...
fasteddie565
01-09-2012, 16:57
And IMHO he shouldn't of started...
From what I have read on the Internet, Bowra used it all of the time as did Mulholland and some after him. From what I read anyway....;)
From what I have read on the Internet, Bowra used it all of the time as did Mulholland and some after him. From what I read anyway....;)
Not just 'some' after LTG Mulholland.... its been around since then. Chief Watts was "The Voice of the Legion" for all functions, now fufilled by someone else. Motto has been Strength and Honor since I've been there.
Dave Asher was also there. B500 Tony's boys
Riding...what a concept...LOL.
When we first started the Desert Training Program (DTP) we were given a "few" mapsheets, an assload of water and directions of "go that way as best you can"....
We were always wondering....haven't these bone heads found their LRDG manuals/lessons learned shit.
I guess it finaly caught on, and they (they being B500 AKA the "GOD" squad (Guests' Operational Detachment) and the bunch started using these vehicles Fast V's and different variations of stuff or something like that. Damn things always broke the reverse gear, they were just some civilian stuff they tried to militarize.....eehhh, didn't work.
Anyone remember Dave Nicewander(sp?) RIP, he had that chevy 1/2 ton with duece 1/2 axles under it??? He also got a write-up in Army Times if I'm not mistaken...
Col. Mulholland told me "welcome to the Legion", so I figured I was in the "Legion"...
Col. Mulholland told me "welcome to the Legion", so I figured I was in the "Legion"...
Well, you were.
As noted here it has been called the 5th Legion internally and externally for decades.