AWOL

[Wiseman]

I'm currently reading this book , AWOL: The Unexcused Absense of America's Upper Classes from Military Service and How It Hurts Our Country (by Kathy Roth-Douquet and Frank Schaeffer ), and it has already verified what my friend and I always talk about regarding people from well off communities serving today. At one point in time it was common for everyone to go through some type of service be it any class. So far the book is good but I'll give a more thorough opinion once I finish it.

[Slantwire]

At one point in time it was common for everyone to go through some type of service be it any class.

At one point in time, there was a national draft. Even then, "favored sons" managed to get light duty, REMF jobs, and early exits.

Patriotism, cowardice, and other interests are spread among all classes. It just so happens that without a draft, it's a lot easier for the rich disinterested to slide on by.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

I'm currently reading this book , AWOL: The Unexcused Absense of America's Upper Classes from Military Service and How It Hurts Our Country (by Kathy Roth-Douquet and Frank Schaeffer ), and it has already verified what my friend and I always talk about regarding people from well off communities serving today. At one point in time it was common for everyone to go through some type of service be it any class. So far the book is good but I'll give a more thorough opinion once I finish it.

You know, while I applaud your reading a wide variety of material, the premise of this book as reflected by the title is really a non-starter. This is an all volunteer military and truthfully, while I have served with and dealt with folks across the entire "class spectrum" of our society, I would much rather have a military that is composed of all volunteers than not. This argument that college kids drafted into the military brought a set of "skills and maturity" than those less fortunate is, for the most part, a crock when it comes to being a soldier. In many cases, college folks are not really prepared for much of anything other than to be retrained by the organizations that hire them. The military has gone to wild extremes to get officers advanced degress so that they can "stand shoulder to shoulder with those in the civilian world when it comes to academic credentials". You know the only thing I ever needed a Master's Degree for? An ROTC instructor slot and I assume that was to ensure I knew which pinky to raise when we had tea with the civilian faculty in the Dean's garden. There are just a lot of folks that are not suited for the military but make contributions to this country without having to don a set of fatigues and I for one value their contributions. Just what is it that you and your friend think that anyone from a well healed community would bring to the military if they did not want to be there? We want folks that can make a commitment to meeting the requirements of service and commitment comes from mind set not pedigree. The only folks that are AWOL here are these authors who are AWOL from reality.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Did the authors serve?

Excellent post Sir. Couldn't agree more.

[Wiseman]

The authors did not serve but their children and the lady's husband did/currently are. In the beginning they were ashamed of that but it slowly shows in the book that they changed their minds. Some of these individuals that are in the upper class are going to be in civilian leadership positions be it in the government or the corporate world and it would be nice to know that they have served and understand the concept of doing the right thing because of that, but that's just from my point of view. However, I agree with you sir that only volunteers should be in the service.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I served with some guys that were what we call in the South "well off". Served with a lot of guys with advanced degrees. Never seemed to affect their ability to get down in the mud.

[TFM]

Personally, I don't think there is really much of an issue there to write a whole book about. :confused:

[Cincinnatus]

JMO, but I'd like to see mandatory national service. Military service would qualify, but so would serving in the Peace Corps, AID, teaching kids to read, working at a hospital or on a rescue squad, etc. The three components that I feel are vital are; a) some sort of demanding training experience (doesn't need to be boot camp, but something along the lines of Outward Bound) that pushes people beyond what they think they can do, imparts some valuable skillsets (med training [to WFR level], basic firearm safety and marksmanship, survival skills, etc.), and includes team building exercises, b) all segments of society take part so the son of the banker and the son of the dot.com millionaire are struggling along next to the son of the garbage collector and the son of the single welfare mother, and c) a comittment to community service that goes well beyond the initial training period (e.g., a thousand hours over a ten year period.)

When they make me Emperor of Earth, this is one of the first measures I'll enact. :cool:

[Bravo1-3]

I saw some stats not too long ago that contradict the authors claims (attached below). As for there being a time when every economic class served... hogwash. You could buy your way out of the draft until the early part of the 20th century by either hiring a proxy to serve in your place or by paying the government to draft one for you. If you felt the need to wear a uniform, and your family was well connected, you could ask the Governor for a commission and using the same clout get yourself assigned to some nice safe backwater.

There are some notable exceptions like many of the officers serving in The Rough Riders and others. Things have NEVER been more equal this country in terms of military service by class.

[Pete]

I'd say that Bravo 1-3s attached thumb nail stands the book on it's head.

That chart appears to say that it's the lower section that is failing to get out of the wagon and pull a while. Must be some of that "somebody else" mentality at work.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Some of these individuals that are in the upper class are going to be in civilian leadership positions be it in the government or the corporate world and it would be nice to know that they have served and understand the concept of doing the right thing .

Oh please. Let me introduce you to a friend of mine whose name I will not reveal without his permission. He was born in the mountains in NC and was poorer than dirt. He became a SF CSM with his last assignment as the CSM of one of the elite units we don't talk about. He left service only because he was demonstrating a new "square" which nosed dived into the dirt, bounced him about 20 feet vertically and broke most of the bones in his legs and lower back. He recovered, started his own business, retired a multi-millionaire and I don't know of any upper-crust socialites that could hold a candle to him personally or professionally. On the other hand I can show you any number of idiots that wore this country's uniform and excelled at doing things right vice doing the right thing. We call the former managers and the latter leaders. While the military may have played a role in helping hone their leadership skills, the military cannot make leaders out of managers and of those without potential to lead regardless of what you are being taught. By the time a person enters military service most of his personal baggage is so firmly entrenched that no amount of service time is going to change him. If that was the case we would not need SFAS to separate the wheat from the chaff.


The time has long past where social status is a guaranteed stepping stone to becoming a capable leader or manager of anything save those incestual organizations and those folks are smart enough to surround themselves with the best and the brightest who come from all walks of life and made it because they worked hard to do so.

[x SF med]

Applause to COL Moroney, he's hit what I found in the business world on the head - managers versus leaders. I happen to have been 'born into affluence' not great wealth, but both of my parents were officers, my paternal grandfather served in the Swiss Army (please no jokes, he was the youngest Officer in the horse drawn artillery) my maternal grandfather served in WWI, my older brother and myself both served, but my younger brother got his dose of the military in a Catholic Military Boarding School (La Salle Military Academy). I've found that many of the REMF Officers who have gone into business manage, while CA officers tend to lead - haven't run into too many SF officers nor other NCOs. The few other SF NCOs I've met tend to lead, crosstrain, and groom for advancement in their departments, and like me can get frustrated with major cases of "we've always done it that way" and "that's not policy" even if it cuts out 10 steps in a process - or not realizing that knowing the established procedures will allow you to know when and how to "step out of the box" to get things done . I don't believe 'class' has a lot to do with it, but training and an inherent need to succeed do.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I saw some stats not too long ago that contradict the authors claims (attached below). As for there being a time when every economic class served... hogwash. You could buy your way out of the draft until the early part of the 20th century by either hiring a proxy to serve in your place or by paying the government to draft one for you. If you felt the need to wear a uniform, and your family was well connected, you could ask the Governor for a commission and using the same clout get yourself assigned to some nice safe backwater.

There are some notable exceptions like many of the officers serving in The Rough Riders and others. Things have NEVER been more equal this country in terms of military service by class.
I'm stealing that chart - I've got some lib noses to rub in doodoo.