I can't stop laughing

[Kyobanim]

I saw this picture of a sign on the cnn web site. It's located on the border between california and mexico. Guess what it means. :D

[REMFlt]

I saw that on "Mind of Mencia." He showed the sign to various people on the street, even talked with somebody in government about it, nobody actually wanted to say what they thought it represented.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Those signs are placed on freeways and other streets where illegal immigrants tend to cross the street and get hit by cars. I don't understand what's so funny.

[Bill Harsey]

Those signs are placed on freeways and other streets where illegal immigrants tend to cross the street and get hit by cars. I don't understand what's so funny.
Up here they only have those signs for deer, elk, turtles and hippies.

[The Dave]

Is that a sign that automatically doubles the speed limit?







All kidding aside, I did laugh the first time I had seen one of these.

[sf11b_p]

Those signs are placed on freeways and other streets where illegal immigrants tend to cross the street and get hit by cars. I don't understand what's so funny.

I think that's funny too.

[The Reaper]

Those signs are placed on freeways and other streets where illegal immigrants tend to cross the street and get hit by cars. I don't understand what's so funny.

Umm, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the fact that we are warning people that they are in an area of known criminal activity, but are not doing anything to actually enforce our laws.:rolleyes:

TR

[Roguish Lawyer]

I am disturbed by hatred of illegal immigrants. The vast majority of them, in my experience, are good, hard-working people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. And the main argument against illegal immigration is based on a complete fallacy -- it is virtually impossible for someone from Mexico to immigrate here legally unless they have unique skills or meet some other exception to our laws.

:munchin

[NousDefionsDoc]

I am disturbed by hatred of illegal immigrants. The vast majority of them, in my experience, are good, hard-working people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. And the main argument against illegal immigration is based on a complete fallacy -- it is virtually impossible for someone from Mexico to immigrate here legally unless they have unique skills or meet some other exception to our laws.

:munchin
Gracias Gringo. Dios te bendiga.

[Bill Harsey]

RL,
I think the humor comes from growing up seeing those signs for critters and never seeing one for humans before. I don't think it's "anti folks from another country" at least from here.

Just this Oregon boys take.

[The Reaper]

I want one with a guy humping along with a big-assed ruck on his back for the road-runner areas at Camp Mackall.

No one here hates illegals. We just wish they were here legally and in accordance with the same rules other immigrants have to follow. Actually, all you have to do to be here legally is to wait for the new amnesty law to be passed (as they seem to be periodically), or just get a pregnant woman to deliver your child on this side of the border.

I am sure that you drive carefully in those areas as well, Counselor.

TR

[Kyobanim]

Those signs are placed on freeways and other streets where illegal immigrants tend to cross the street and get hit by cars. I don't understand what's so funny.

It's funny because it's 3 people running across the interstate. It's like putting signs in the Florida Straits warning boaters to look out for people floating in inner tube boats and duct tape rafts.

[HOLLiS]

I am disturbed by hatred of illegal immigrants. The vast majority of them, in my experience, are good, hard-working people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. And the main argument against illegal immigration is based on a complete fallacy -- it is virtually impossible for someone from Mexico to immigrate here legally unless they have unique skills or meet some other exception to our laws.

:munchin

Sort of on the same lines as your. I was a on the board of Directors for Salud De La Famila, a health clinic in Woodburn. I was listening to a Speaker express some concerns on our two Borders. Illegals from the North tend to "fit" in better and when it comes to getting job, they get good paying ones. Not to many people talk about Illegal Canadians.

Given enough money anything can get smuggelled in or out of something. Look at drugs in prisions. Obviously there are problems. I Like Bush's Idea of work permits.

Interesting thing when I lived in Arizona. INS would get a "call", they would raid a farm or business and take the Illegal's back to Mexico. Seems that the business only had pay day every several months or so, and this would happen before the pay day. INS found out and started to run the Illegals by payroll. Guess what... all of a suddent those calls stopped.

[Kyobanim]

I am disturbed by hatred of illegal immigrants. The vast majority of them, in my experience, are good, hard-working people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. And the main argument against illegal immigration is based on a complete fallacy -- it is virtually impossible for someone from Mexico to immigrate here legally unless they have unique skills or meet some other exception to our laws.

:munchin

Pretty much the same rules other people have to live by. Same rules apply to me wanting to immigrate to Australia.

And since it's been brought up in a humor topic I'll continue here.
Why should my medical insurance have to go up to support their use of the medical system in this country?
Why should my tax dollars go to supporting their welfare status?
Why should they be allowed to work and drive the wage levels down in different areas because they work under the table?

Why should my elected goverment have to waste time on the illegal immigrant issue? There's plenty of more important things that they've fooked up that they could be fixing right now.

11 million is enough, thank you. They can go the other direction.

[Warrior-Mentor]

I am disturbed by hatred of illegal immigrants. The vast majority of them, in my experience, are good, hard-working people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. And the main argument against illegal immigration is based on a complete fallacy -- it is virtually impossible for someone from Mexico to immigrate here legally unless they have unique skills or meet some other exception to our laws.

:munchin

I don't hate illegals. I do absolutely resent a sense of entitlement. Doesn't matter if it's illegals, or anyoneone born in this country legally...a sense of entitlement makes my blood boil.

IMHO one of the foundations and great things about our country is that anyone can make something of themselves, as long as they're willing to work for it and pay the price.

Showing up and expecting to be entitled to medical care, or voting, or you name it...wrong answer.

Again, it's likely another case of a the few making a bad name for the many.
____________

Except lawyers...99% of the lawyers make the other 1% look bad. :D

[sf11b_p]

I am disturbed by hatred of illegal immigrants. The vast majority of them, in my experience, are good, hard-working people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. And the main argument against illegal immigration is based on a complete fallacy -- it is virtually impossible for someone from Mexico to immigrate here legally unless they have unique skills or meet some other exception to our laws.

:munchin

Funny too how people play the hatred and or race card. Leaves little room for the stance that there's a legal way offered to enter this country and become a citizen, and an illegal way taken to cross back and forth taking advantage of the pay and benefits offered by this country. And knowing hard working American citizens who began as Mexican Nationals I don't buy into your stated "fallacy".

Illegals from the North tend to "fit" in better and when it comes to getting job, they get good paying ones. Not to many people talk about Illegal Canadians.

Well lets see, better education, the ability to speak or willingness to learn english translates to better paying jobs. I don't understand it. The willingness to assimilate into their new countries culture and not demand special benefits such as a secondary language in schooling, printed documents, and so on. I'm not getting why they wouldn't attract attention.

[tk27]

I saw that on "Mind of Mencia." He showed the sign to various people on the street, even talked with somebody in government about it, nobody actually wanted to say what they thought it represented.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhi11JViCGM&search=mencia



RL, Sir I share much of your sentiment. But I got a laugh out of this, its something you dont see everyday in the North.

[lksteve]

I am disturbed by hatred of illegal immigrants. The vast majority of them, in my experience, are good, hard-working people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. why not use a pedestrian crossing sign...? why not use a warning sign, not unlike those outside prisons, restricting hitchiking and warning folks that there are illegals about? why portray them as common livestock or wildlife...?:munchin

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

I am disturbed by hatred of illegal immigrants. The vast majority of them, in my experience, are good, hard-working people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. And the main argument against illegal immigration is based on a complete fallacy -- it is virtually impossible for someone from Mexico to immigrate here legally unless they have unique skills or meet some other exception to our laws.

:munchin

I have no hatred of anyone primarily because anger fogs up my sight picture, but I do have a strong dislike of anyone that breaks the law. You folks out in the west are concerned with Mexicans, there are a whole lot of other illegals here and I am sure you are not going to cozy up to the likes of those that are here in the east like the frigging Russians. Now as to whether or not they can get here legally or not because they do not meet the requisite qualifications- that is a crock. Not only are they screwing those that have made the proper effort and are standing in line to get here but they are now painting all their fellow immigrants, legal and illegal, with the same damn paint brush of demanding services to which they are simply not entitled. Many have made it legally and there are at last count about 35K in uniform that had no special skills. If you want to come here then do it legally or stay in your own damn country and work to better the situation that you find so abomininal that you would rather leave to others to fix while you go off and sustain yourself on the social systems of some other country. This country was born of those who were brave enough to fight for their rights and moral cowardice is not a skill we need to import, we have enough to go around in Congress.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Whether to permit immigration and whether (and to whom) to provide public services are separate questions.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Whether to permit immigration and whether (and to whom) to provide public services are separate questions.

Yes, I agree-in a perfect and sane world. However when you have cities, counties and organizations that have declared safe-havens the lines get blurred. RL I am not going to get in a gun fight with you over the law, I would be drawing down on a man while I had an unloaded weapon. But, as emotional as all this is, it boils down to the fact that if you are here illegally you are not entitled to anything as far as I am concerned. You are not even entitled to that damn road sign warning folks that illegals are about to mess up your day if you run them over. Isn't it interesting that the sign is not bi-linqual. It surely is meant only to protect someone breaking the law and not the poor SOB who by being in the wrong place at the wrong time kills someone who should not have been there in the first place. An interesting scenario for the chaos theory.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Yes, I agree-in a perfect and sane world. However when you have cities, counties and organizations that have declared safe-havens the lines get blurred.

Fair point.

[The Reaper]

Whether to permit immigration and whether (and to whom) to provide public services are separate questions.

Immigration is not the issue. There is a program available at every US Embassy and Consulate in the world that will instruct you on how to apply for immigration to the US. We permit thousands of people to immigrate here every year. Most are people with specific skills that we are looking for to match needs here. There are thousands of well-educated skilled people who have been waiting years to immigrate to the United States. It is a travesty that all they really needed to do was to buy a one-way ticket to Juarez or Tijuana and pay a few hundred dollars to be brought here in a few days. If caught, they just wait a few days and try it again till they make it.

The real issue is that large numbers of poor, largely uneducated Mexicans (with the tacit, if not implicit support of the Mexican government) have decided that due to higher wages, lax enforcement, willing employers, and a fully developed support system, it is easier to merely cross the border illegally to the US and live here illegally while sending the money they earn back to Mexico.

We have absorbed these people in the past in "one-time" amnesties, and the numbers absorbed grow larger each time as more people see that we are not serious about enforcing these laws.

Now we have a huge federal deficit, a large part of which goes to providing services for people who have broken our laws and come here illegally.

These same people have decided that it is time for them to stand up and demand that they be accepted as a sort of "dual national" citizens. Work here, get benefits here, cross the border pretty much at will. Some members of these groups are basically calling for a second civil war, by stating their intent to reconquer former portions of Mexico, demanding trhe right to secede and form their own country (or join Mexico). I thought that we had already settled that?

We have to act now, secure the border, and start sending these people back as they are detected in our society. At the same time, employers who hire them knowingly need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

I have lived in Hispanic countries and cultures most of my adult life. I was sympathetic towards these people and their plight till the ever increasing numbers made this a major problem, my government decided to stop enforcing the law so that certain groups might be more inclined to vote for them, and recent demands by protestors became more insistent. I now want the border sealed and people sent home one by one as they are found. Once we start doing that, we can talk about an unskilled worker immigration program. Until them, I want them out. AHORA!! Ayer, si possible!

TR

[Gypsy]

I am disturbed by hatred of illegal immigrants. The vast majority of them, in my experience, are good, hard-working people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families.

:munchin

I don't think that I hate them per se, but I hate that they are here illegally. I hate that the politicians of my Country are not taking control of our borders, enforcing laws and punishing employers who hire the illegals. I hate the financial drain on my Country. I hate that funds are not there for the BP to deal with this in a truly effective manner.

It isn't just about the Mexican illegals...I HATE the thought that there are truly evil people who have crossed our borders, or entered some other way, and are hell bent on causing my fellow, and LEGAL, citizens nothing but death and destruction.

I'm sure there are some really good people who come here, illegally, and they are trying to make a better life for themselves and embrace the freedoms of America. But you know what? They do not belong here....because they are here illegally.

If we don't enforce our own laws in this Country, why should we expect them to adhere to them?

[HOLLiS]

[QUOTE=Gypsy

If we don't enforce our own laws in this Country, why should we expect them to adhere to them?[/QUOTE]

and may I add, why should anyone obey our laws......

[Gypsy]

I'm not sure I properly understand your comment, Hollis.

[lksteve]

I'm not sure I properly understand your comment, Hollis.where i live, most contractors earn a pretty penny exploiting illegal labor, they profit from breaking the law...like drug dealers...like pimps...like moonshiners...hell, they're no better than the mafia...if we don't enforce this law, why enforce any of them...? why not legalize prostitution...? marijuana...? gambling...? what is the point in being a "nation of laws" if they are not enforced...?

[NousDefionsDoc]

Ok, I wanna play. I understand the rule of law thing, I honestly do. But this is nothing new. And it ain't just the Mexicans doing that, Canadians do it all the time.

So other than the "illegal" part of the immigration, what are the objections? If you post it, please support it - and remember, while I know things, I'm not very smart, so don't confuse me.

If it is the economy, is the economy in the tank?

If we could somehow get rid of the criminal element, would it still be such a huge issue?

[The Reaper]

It is illegal, it is a large unskilled underclass who need public benefits, it is tied in with crime and potentially terorism, it seems to be a group who mistakenly view their status here and seem to have a lot of demands recently. Did I mention it is illegal and is tolerated by no other developed nation on Earth?

Please tell me that there are 13 million illegal uneducated poor Canadians here working sweat jobs and applying for welfare, using forged documents, clogging emergency rooms and prisons, driving around with no license or insurance, filling classes with non-English speaking special needs kids and sending money back to their families in Canada. And that they are running drugs across the border with the help of the Canadian Army.

I must have missed that story and their national demands day.:rolleyes:

TR

[Gypsy]

If you post it, please support it - and remember, while I know things, I'm not very smart, so don't confuse me.



I beg to differ ;)

Is it the economy? It's the cost to our economy. Meanwhile, while we're funding the illegal costs...we could be taking care of our Veterans with better programs, and putting more money into our active duty Military.

This is from a study just two years ago:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html
Among the findings:

Illegal alien households are estimated to use $2,700 a year more in services than they pay in taxes, creating a total fiscal burden of nearly $10.4 billion on the federal budget in 2002.

Among the largest federal costs: Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

If illegal aliens were legalized and began to pay taxes and use services like legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual fiscal deficit at the federal level would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total federal deficit of $29 billion.

With nearly two-third of illegals lacking a high school diploma, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments — not their legal status or their unwillingness to work.

Amnesty increases costs because illegals would still be largely unskilled, and thus their tax payments would continue to be very modest, but once legalized they would be able to access many more government services.

The fact that legal immigrants with little schooling are a fiscal drain on federal coffers does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a drain. Many legal immigrants are highly skilled.

Because many of the costs are due to their U.S.-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth, barring illegals themselves from federal programs will not significantly reduce costs.

Although they create a net drain on the federal government, the average illegal household pays more than $4,200 a year in federal taxes, for a total of nearly $16 billion.

However, they impose annual costs of more than $26.3 billion, or about $6,950 per illegal household.

About 43 percent, or $7 billion, of the federal taxes illegals pay go to Social Security and Medicare.

Employers do not see the costs associated with less-educated immigrant workers because the costs are spread out among all taxpayers.


For me, yes it's still an issue regardless of the criminal element.

[uboat509]

The whole amnesty argument is based on a fallacy, the infamous "illegal imigrants do jobs that Americans won't do" argument. It's not that Americans won't do those jobs, it's that they won't do it for the wages that the illegals are being paid. Sure, the illegals will pick beans or whatever all day in the blazing hot sun for two dollars an hour but only because they have no choice. Once they are made legal they will have recourse to adress their situation. They will demand decent working conditions and their federally mandated minimum wage and so forth and when that happens these jobs that "Americans won't do" suddenly become jobs that quite a few Americans would be willing to do. Once that happens it will no longer be cost effective for these employers to hire these people and they will be out looking for the next crop of illegals to work for them at a crappy wage and in crappy working conditions. It is a vicous circle.
The left, along with prodigious aid from the MSM, have done an excellent job of refraiming this issue from an illegal immigration issue to a general immigration issue. Those of us who want our laws enforced are portrayed as racists or xenophobes. Even our president refered to the those concerned citizens who took their own time to watch the border as vigilantes even though nothing they were doing was illegal. I don't hate the illegals nor do most people who feel they way I do. I just hate the system that created this situation and continues to foster it.

SFC W

[bubba]

Hear is one to think about on your way to PT this morning, isn't the "imigration" problem more like an ACT OF WAR? Just because they all aren't carrying weapons, the end result is a negative impact on the government and populace of the US, and it is backed and approved by a forign power. In my book that constitutes an act of war, therefor why not deploy the Military in an appropriate manner to deter and counter the threat. Not to mention round up the invaders and put them in EPW camps with the Traitors that hire them. From my point of view the "imigration" problem is just a form of gurrila warfare being practiced by Mexico along the same lines of the "Drug War" that the government also has a hand in alowing to continue. But that is just my $.02, and oh yeah, have a good un'

[x SF med]

We in the SF community owe some of our history to "grey illegals", those fine soldiers who defected from Iron Curtain / Bamboo Curtain countries throughout the 50's, 60's, 70's and even into the 80's. The US gave them citizenship on the condition that their particular knowledge be used in SF / Intel - I had some fine instructors and Sr NCOs who fit this bill. This is kind of an aside, but in most cases without the support of our community, these fine men and their families would have been denied immigration - because they had served in 'enemy' military units, or had been members of 'radical'(read democratic underground) groups in their native countries. If I'm not mistaken, SOCOM has had both a CDR and CSM that fit this bill... is it possible that had they, due to necessity, been forced, they might have immirated illegally to the US - one never knows.... but it is a point to ponder in the wake of this discussion.

That's my .02

[HOLLiS]

I'm not sure I properly understand your comment, Hollis.

Gypsy, My thought is, If one allows a group to break the law, then other groups would say, "why can we not break the law too."

When Carter gave amnesty to "draft Dogders" the prisoner in jail who "did a lessor crime" wonder why they could not get amnesty too. IMHO a mistake at that time.

I agree with the very simple fact, it is Illegal.............. Sorry, you broke our law, now leave.

But I don't think that is only solution to this complex issue of Immagration (legal type that is).

[Razor]

We in the SF community owe some of our history to "grey illegals"... is it possible that had they, due to necessity, been forced, they might have immirated illegally to the US - one never knows.... but it is a point to ponder in the wake of this discussion.

Actually, we know that some, such as Lauri Thornii, did in fact enter the US illegally. A big difference here is the assimilation issue. Thornii immediately sought a means to get a productive job (in this case, joining the Army), learned to speak, read and write American English, and even changed his name to Larry Thorne to Anglicize it (of course, it could be argued that he did this mainly to throw off those looking for him). He didn't seek to establish a Finnish enclave where he lived. He didn't demand official documents be printed in Finnish, or that schools have Finnish translators. He didn't steal SSNs and supply them to other Finnish immigrants to use for obtaining identification, loans, or fraudulent credit cards. He didn't ask for handouts; he pulled his own weight, and then some.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Gypsy:

That study and the way you are trying to use it are misguided. I am traveling, but will address the issue later when I have a chance.

RL

[The Reaper]

Gypsy:

That study and the way you are trying to use it are misguided. I am traveling, but will address the issue later when I have a chance.

RL

Counsel:

Are you advocating for an unrestricted open border, with full American citizenship and benefits for any illegal aliens who want it?

TR

[x SF med]

Razor-
Point taken, I guess that's kind of where I wanted it to go - the differences among the groups of 'grey' and 'black' immigrants to this country. You stated it much more succinctly than I.

[jfhiller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhi11JViCGM&search=mencia



RL, Sir I share much of your sentiment. But I got a laugh out of this, its something you dont see everyday in the North.

That video, esp the end, is absolutely hilarious!

[Michelle]

It is illegal, it is a large unskilled underclass who need public benefits, it is tied in with crime and potentially terorism, it seems to be a group who mistakenly view their status here and seem to have a lot of demands recently. Did I mention it is illegal and is tolerated by no other developed nation on Earth?

Please tell me that there are 13 million illegal uneducated poor Canadians here working sweat jobs and applying for welfare, using forged documents, clogging emergency rooms and prisons, driving around with no license or insurance, filling classes with non-English speaking special needs kids and sending money back to their families in Canada. And that they are running drugs across the border with the help of the Canadian Army.

I must have missed that story and their national demands day.:rolleyes:

TR

That is the crux of the matter right there in my opinion. The overall negative burden associated with the problem. Also the fact that they are here illegally. Someone else mentioned how hard it is to legally immigrate to the U.S. I have an entire department that I work with at my job that calls b.s. on that concept. My department is like the United Colors of Benetton... I have coworkers (just in my Department of 58) that are from Pakistan, Vietnam, China, Burma, Ukraine, El Salvador, India, Russia, Mexico, the Philipines, England and Korea. EVERY one of them came here and did what it took to become United States Citizens. They learned the language, they worked hard, they made the most of their education, and they secured good jobs for themselves. Oh yeah. And they studied the history, filled out the forms, took the test, and became citizens of the United States. Was it *easy*? No, they worked very hard to "assimilate" (great word Razor) into our country and become proud and productive members. But they were ambitious, hard working and dedicated to do it the right way. They weren't lazy and full of entitlement issues.

The funniest thing is, these great Americans that are my coworkers are actually ANGRIER than I am about this whole illegal immigration problem. They have NO sympathy whatsoever for the law breakers that are here illegally and burdening our system. It is because they know the price they paid and how hard they worked to do it the right way and they have nothing but disdain and disgust for those who try to circumvent and cheat the system and the people of this country.

m1

[Team Sergeant]

I have coworkers (just in my Department of 58) that are from Pakistan, Vietnam, China, Burma, Ukraine, El Salvador, India, Russia, Mexico, the Philipines, England and Korea. EVERY one of them came here and did what it took to become United States Citizens. They learned the language, they worked hard, they made the most of their education, and they secured good jobs for themselves.

m1

I had no idea you worked at the UN? :D

TS
(Believes in LEGAL immigration!)

[Roguish Lawyer]

Counsel:

Are you advocating for an unrestricted open border, with full American citizenship and benefits for any illegal aliens who want it?

TR

No. I can't explain right now as I am using Blackberry browser (and am supposed to be paying attention at the conference I am attending), but I will do so later.

[Gypsy]

Thanks for the clarification Hollis.

RL...look forward to it.

[Slantwire]

The funniest thing is, these great Americans that are my coworkers are actually ANGRIER than I am about this whole illegal immigration problem. They have NO sympathy whatsoever for the law breakers that are here illegally and burdening our system. It is because they know the price they paid and how hard they worked to do it the right way and they have nothing but disdain and disgust for those who try to circumvent and cheat the system and the people of this country.


I see the same from my girlfriend (Thai). It took her many months of paperwork and waiting in Thailand before she got a visa to come here, and she's got no patience for those who hop a wall and demand "squatter's rights."

[mumbleypeg]

Returning for a brief moment to the signs that started this thread: They were originally placed along I-5 at the Border Patrol Station at San Onofre, in the middle of Camp Pendleton, in the 80's. Van loads of people were getting dropped off on the freeway, crossing and passing the inspection point on foot. Several people were hit by freeway traffic. Signs went up first, then a fence down the middle of the freeway, then a fence on both sides of the freeway.

You can now buy shirts with that printed on them in surf shops around Southern California.

From my house I can see the border. I have spent a lot of time in Tijuana. If I was there, looking North, I would haul ass as well.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Returning for a brief moment to the signs that started this thread: They were originally placed along I-5 at the Border Patrol Station at San Onofre, in the middle of Camp Pendleton, in the 80's. Van loads of people were getting dropped off on the freeway, crossing and passing the inspection point on foot. Several people were hit by freeway traffic. Signs went up first, then a fence down the middle of the freeway, then a fence on both sides of the freeway.

You can now buy shirts with that printed on them in surf shops around Southern California.

From my house I can see the border. I have spent a lot of time in Tijuana. If I was there, looking North, I would haul ass as well.

That's the only place I recall ever seeing the signs.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Is it the economy? It's the cost to our economy. Meanwhile, while we're funding the illegal costs...we could be taking care of our Veterans with better programs, and putting more money into our active duty Military.

This is from a study just two years ago:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html


That study only looks at fiscal impacts on the government. It ignores other economic impacts, such as impact on consumer prices, labor costs, demand for consumer goods, etc.

There is an enormous benefit to our economy from the availability of cheap labor. Take single mothers. You don't think they benefit from being able to hire affordable nannys and housekeepers?

Illegal immigrants spend money here and they bring down consumer prices and facilitate production that might not otherwise take place.

Here are a couple of things to chew on:

http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/900908_Holzer_111605.pdf

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-fi-jobs18may18,1,7029817.story

[Roguish Lawyer]

Counsel:

Are you advocating for an unrestricted open border, with full American citizenship and benefits for any illegal aliens who want it?

TR

I would focus border control efforts on security issues, not restricting labor and immigration flows. I am not in favor of providing the public benefits we have today. I would have a much more limited safety net, and force people to care for themselves. I would allow greater tax deductions for charitable contributions, whether in cash or in kind. I like Charles Murray's social welfare ideas.

[The Reaper]

Illegal immigrants spend money here and they bring down consumer prices and facilitate production that might not otherwise take place.

I don't see them being conspicous consumers here.

Wouldn't the billions they send back to Mexico be better spent in the US economy?

I would focus border control efforts on security issues, not restricting labor and immigration flows. I am not in favor of providing the public benefits we have today. I would have a much more limited safety net, and force people to care for themselves. I would allow greater tax deductions for charitable contributions, whether in cash or in kind. I like Charles Murray's social welfare ideas.

Given the impossibility of changing the entitlement system, they are going to receive the benefits regardless. In fact, the latest amendment to the Senate Bill made them eligible for Social Security as well.

Your preference is not a realistic choice, particularly given that once they can vote, they will not support officials who would roll back their entitlements.

The options would appear to be 13 million amnestied new Americans with full entitlements and leftist/non-US nationalism (while leaving the border minimally secured), or sealing the border and sending them back one by one.

Choose from those alternatives.

TR

[Roguish Lawyer]

The options would appear to be 13 million amnestied new Americans with full entitlements and leftist/non-US nationalism (while leaving the border minimally secured), or sealing the border and sending them back one by one.


Actually, I think these people are natural Republicans. They are religious, they have strong family values and they believe in hard work.

[Airbornelawyer]

Actually, I think these people are natural Republicans. They are religious, they have strong family values and they believe in hard work.Or at least they would be if so many Republicans weren't bound and determined to act like nothing better than know-nothing nativists.

[vsvo]

That study only looks at fiscal impacts on the government. It ignores other economic impacts, such as impact on consumer prices, labor costs, demand for consumer goods, etc.

I think that's the dirty little secret in this matter. While I believe most folks here would gladly and sincerely pay more for goods and services in return for strict control of illegal immigration, I'm not sure the rest of the country would assume that posture. Just look at the uproar over rising gas prices. Some groups are demanding government action, when the government can have little short-term impact, and gas prices are still relatively low on an adjusted basis.

I find myself ambivalent about this issue. There's a fine line between a legal and an illegal immigrant. Just because a USAF jet took me and my family to Guam then Ft. Chaffee, I'm not sure that means I deserve to be here more than a guy who trekked from some war-torn Central American country up through Mexico and enters the US illegally in search of a better life for him and his family.

[sf11b_p]

There is an enormous benefit to our economy from the availability of cheap labor. Take single mothers. You don't think they benefit from being able to hire affordable nannys and housekeepers?

I think legal immigrant workers and citizens would and should benefit from working those jobs.

Illegal immigrants spend money here and they bring down consumer prices and facilitate production that might not otherwise take place.

I don't believe that savings in labor costs is entirely passed on to the consumer, I think the employer and investor take the difference.

Here are a couple of things to chew on:

http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/900908_Holzer_111605.pdf

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-fi-jobs18may18,1,7029817.story

Cyndi Smallwood is looking for a few strong men for her landscaping company. Guys with no fear of a hot sun, who can shovel dirt all day long. She'll pay as much as $34 an hour.

She can't find them.

I find that extremely hard to believe, but I will pass that on to landscaping business owners I know here since the advertised landscaping wage in Michigan is eight dollars an hour. I'd bet that the fault is her limited posting. Hell if I were 20 I'd have been at her door yesterday.

The PDF discusses 22 million immigrants in the work force, 10-11 million of those are here illegally and 6-7 million of those are working, illegally. That means 6-7 million illegal immigrants are contributing marginally by paying sales tax and maybe wage deductions while the larger number of illegal immigrants of 10-11 million may be receiving benefits in some form, and of those 3-4 million are doing so with no contributions other than sales tax.

After recognizing illegal immigrants the article doesn’t distinguish the effects of immigrant workers as two distinct groups.

When it discusses the affect of immigrant labor on costs of food and clothing it doesn’t recognize that lower prices are also due the price of foreign produce and cloth goods imported to the United States.

I like how the writer suggests providing some means for undocumented (illegal) workers to receive legal status… it’s in place already it’s called naturalization and involves things like work visas, it takes a little time and effort but about 30 million other immigrants presently seem to manage it and more than a few million before them.

[tk27]

Wouldn't the billions they send back to Mexico be better spent in the US economy?
Sir, I would think that wealth they create by working (Increased profit for US firms and savings for consumers) is far greater then their earnings that they send home. Also money sent back to Mexico can be spent on goods created by US firms. Money being sent abroad is not zero-sum.
If the money sent home is used to improve standard of living and local economy, could this decrease the number of illegal immigrants? If there is now capital to be used as a catalyst to improve local being, will more people immigrate?
True, I immagine this could be a mute point because, the trend (I believe, dont have the data yet) has been an increase in the number of illegals into the U.S. over time. But what about the percentage of population adjusted for growth that leaves?

[Roguish Lawyer]

Or at least they would be if so many Republicans weren't bound and determined to act like nothing better than know-nothing nativists.

Concur

[sf11b_p]

Sure, when discussion fails despite political party lines remaining relatively unmentioned lets make it all about Republicans against the more enlightened and brilliant world. :rolleyes:

Out.

[The Reaper]

What about the cost of 100,000 illegal aliens incarcerated as convicted felons?

How about the cost to society of their crimes? What impact has MS-13 and the Mexican gangs had on our society?

My home county is floating their third school bond in the past seven years, largely due to the influx of illegal alien students. I say enough.

The protesters in the streets with the Mexican flags, chanting in Spanish, demanding all sorts of things, including the return of a large part of the US to Mexico didn't look like they wanted to be assimilated. They looked to me like they wanted entitlements.

As COL Moroney said, America is supposed to be a melting pot. Not a stew.

Call me a racist if you want. I have worked in Latin cultures for most of my adult life. I have probably been in other societies more than I have here. I read Spanish language periodicals, listen to Hispanic radio and watch their TV. I was a big supporter of Hispanic causes and Hispanic immigration. I am an American who has served this country and put my ass on the line for many years. I have too many friends who either did it the right way, or married a foreign national and did it the right way, tiresome and tedious as the paperwork may have been. I am entitled to my opinion, ignorant and uninformed as you make think it is. You want to get in my face and make demands of me, after 20 million of you break into my house? I don't think so. This is our decision, not theirs. I am not anti-immigrant. I am anti-ILLEGAL, I am mad as Hell about this, and I am not going to take it any more.

We need to put pressure on Mexico to fix their economy and address the root cause of this exodus. We need to seal the border. Now. We need to punish employers who knowingly hire illegals. When illegals show up at the jail, the ER, or the schoolhouse, they need to be deported. We need to be sending a bill to Mexico for the incarceration, education, welfare, or treatment of every Mexican here who is not documented.

Once that is happening, we can talk about a controlled visa program for unskilled workers to come to the US. And need them we likely do. If you want to stay, go home and come back through the door, not through a window. If you are my elected representative and don't think this needs to be fixed, I am coming after you in November. I may lose, but I will go down swinging. I am just about pissed off about this.

Just my .02, probably worth less than nothing.

TR

[tk27]

I think legal immigrant workers and citizens would and should benefit from working those jobs.

I don't believe that savings in labor costs is entirely passed on to the consumer, I think the employer and investor take the difference.

- The demand for illegals to fill these jobs is exactly because they are not legals or citizens and thus subject to a minimum wage and other labor regulation. A legal / citizen nanny or housekeeper would not be economicaly feasible for most single mothers. We often hear and say that we are against "a sense of entitlement", the ultimate sense of enitlement is the notion that ones cost of labor is worth more then the market rate.

- So what if employers and investors take difference? The Gov't still taxes it to finance public goods. And employers/investors are not going to pour 1000 Island Dressing on the cash profit and eat it. They will save it, it invest it, and spend it. This is all good for the economy and good for you. The notion that employers keep the difference also hinges on that fact that an enterprising firm doesnt come along, pass more of the savings onto the consumers, thereby increasing market share and making profits instead on scale (think Sam Walton school of biz).

[Roguish Lawyer]

I am entitled to my opinion, ignorant and uninformed as you make think it is.

You are, and I don't think it is ignorant or uninformed. I just disagree with you.


Once that is happening, we can talk about a controlled visa program for unskilled workers to come to the US. And need them we likely do. If you want to stay, go home and come back through the door, not through a window.

I have no problem with programs like this. In fact, it may be a solution. But suggesting that immigrants are all bad is, in my view, misguided.

[The Reaper]

But suggesting that immigrants are all bad is, in my view, misguided.

Did I say that? Please quote me. I'm waiting....

The next person who fails to note the distinction between immigrant and illegal immigrant will be eliminated from this discussion. Your rhetoric is starting to sound a lot like the DNCs.

Lets review:

Immigrant - Good!

ILLEGAL Immigrant - Bad! Because the chose to ignore our laws and came here anyway.

Maybe we should be arming and funding revolutionaries in Mexico who will reflect a little light there at the end of the tunnel. Clearly their own politicians do not care as long as we provide resources and a safety valve.

TR

[Roguish Lawyer]

You're going to eliminate me from the discussion? OK . . . LOL

How about this: Suggesting that illegal immigrants are all bad is misguided in my opinion. :p

I won't post anymore in this thread if my comments are unwanted. :)

[Roguish Lawyer]

By the way, I do not agree that breaking the law is always wrong. You may face consequences for doing it, but I'm never going to obey a law I think is immoral or unjust. Easy examples would be helping slaves to escape their owners or helping Jews avoid being sent to concentration camps in WWII Germany.

TR, I thought you were a fan of jury nullification. Isn't that when a jury deliberately disobeys legal instructions from the Judge to get the result they think is just? :munchin

[HOLLiS]

I have enjoyed the discussion, It only confirms my feeling it is a Big mess, and leaving it to the politicians will only make it much worse. There are multiple issues, I think it is important to separate those issues.

The key aspect, as I see it, Is legal Vs Illegal. I am against punishing people for doing immigration legally while rewarding those who do it Illegally.

It is a Smack against all the people who have come to this country Legally, jump all the hoops, waited the waits and did the right thing to become a American and to then turn around and reward people for breaking OUR laws.

We have a problem, what do we do to fix it? BUT it is not just up to us to fix it, as TR stated, Mexico needs to do something besides using the USA as a safety value.

We need to fix our entitlement programs. Change what makes a citizen, place of birth or Parents origins/citizenship especially if the parents are in the country illegally. Develope tactics to slow down or halt the practice of hiring Illegal. Improve our borders security in practical manner.

No telling what congress will do.

[tk27]

The key aspect, as I see it, Is legal Vs Illegal. I am against punishing people for doing immigration legally while rewarding those who do it Illegally.

It is a Smack against all the people who have come to this country Legally, jump all the hoops, waited the waits and did the right thing to become a American and to then turn around and reward people for breaking OUR laws.

You are absolutely correct in this. Likewise it could be said that utilizing coercive interrogation tactics on a terrorist in order to stop a ticking nuke, violating current legislation, would be a slap to the millions who have fought for liberty, and human rights. But would you still do it? I know I would, Justice Robert Jackson's "The Constitution is not a suicide pact" resonates well in such a situation.

Now what does this have to do with immigration?

Our country is facing a ticking bomb, albeit one with a slow fuse that many people don’t see.

Simply put a demographic shift with the baby boomers aging and retiring rapidly is radically changing the ratio of working aged persons to retirees/persons 65 and older.
-Currently we have 4.7:1 ratio this will be 3.5:1 by 2030, and 2.6:1 by 2040.
-Social Security and Medicare trusts are already drying up, and entitlement spending and defense spending are increasingly becoming the majority of the fed. budget pushing everything else down a level.
How are we going to manage this with so few workers supporting so many?

Presently we are witnessing France, Germany, Italy and Japan kill themselves off from heavy gov't taxation and shrinking workforces. We do not have to suffer the same fate as them; we can improvise, adapt, and overcome.

The situation is a turd-sandwich and we are all going to have to take a bite. Some people will get slapped; the ensuing creative destruction will have its victims. But we have little choice; immigration law is not a suicide pact.

[The Reaper]

You're going to eliminate me from the discussion? OK . . . LOL

How about this: Suggesting that illegal immigrants are all bad is misguided in my opinion. :p

I won't post anymore in this thread if my comments are unwanted. :)

I will if you accuse me of saying that all immigrants are bad again. TS says that I can pull a trigger on anyone but him or Dan.

Why should I approve of someone who decides to ignore one law to get here, another to obtain fraudulent ID, another when they avoid paying taxes, what law should constitute one they should obey? Requirements to have insurance, not to drive after drinking excessively, murder, what? Slippery slope there counsel.

Yeah, this country really needs more people here without high school educations and few skills who do not speak the language. I was just telling my wife the other night, man we really need more people like that.:rolleyes:


By the way, I do not agree that breaking the law is always wrong. You may face consequences for doing it, but I'm never going to obey a law I think is immoral or unjust. Easy examples would be helping slaves to escape their owners or helping Jews avoid being sent to concentration camps in WWII Germany.

TR, I thought you were a fan of jury nullification. Isn't that when a jury deliberately disobeys legal instructions from the Judge to get the result they think is just? :munchin

Are you equating illegally crossing an international border and identity fraud with freeing slaves or protecting Jews? Then you must feel that immigration law and the sanctity of international borders are wrong. Hmm, I guess that the Germans really weren't invading all of those countries as much as they were coming to the assistance of German people living there. Would it be wrong for a bunch of them to move into your backyard and build a shack there without your permission? How about if they want to borrow your car for a while? At gunpoint? They just want to carry a few small packages across the border and back, won't take long. Are you okay with that as well? You going to let the Muslim cross the border as well, if he claims to be Mexican? You didn't stop them, how can you stop him? Profiling? Discrimination? Call the ACLU! Why do we send the Haitians back, they have the same human rights as Mexicans don't they?

Jury nullification is when a jury of my peers decides to try the law as well as the case. I do not think that a bunch of illegal aliens get to make the law in the United States, whether they disagree with it or not. Maybe you would like to make them my peers and give them that right, even if the judge's instructions have to be translated for them. Looking forward to seeing how you Yanquis are treated in Nuevo Mexico, in a very few years.

Hasta luego, gringo!

TR

[Gypsy]

By the way, I do not agree that breaking the law is always wrong. You may face consequences for doing it, but I'm never going to obey a law I think is immoral or unjust. Easy examples would be helping slaves to escape their owners or helping Jews avoid being sent to concentration camps in WWII Germany.


I'm sorry I absolutely do not see the correlation in comparing someone entering our Country illegally and the plight of slaves escaping...or the massacre of Jews. Do you really feel our law of entering our Country legally to be wrong?

I don't understand why people don't see the problem with ILLEGAL immigration.

How do you feel about this, RL?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060516/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_us_immigration_6

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Just my .02, probably worth less than nothing.

TR

I agree wholeheartedly. If you are here illegally you are a criminal. Is that so hard to understand? If you are paying social security and expect to draw benefits from it, how did you get that social security number? Did you steal it, did you forge a birth certificate, or what? You have now compounded your problems by committing fraud. So you are still a criminal. If you demand services to which you are not entitled and then fail to pay for them you are a damn thief-you are still a criminal. If you bring Momma and the kid with you, just what jobs are they filling that "Americans will not do?" So now you are bringing additional illegals in, who contribute nothing, suck up resources, and you are aiding and abetting them. You are still a criminal. Many folks on this forum have stood in harms way, shed blood, and lost many compatriots guaranteeing that those that are here legally have a right to avail themselves of the rights and priviledges of citizenship. They did not expend personal capital and years of their lives so that some damn illegal could avail themselves of those rights and priviledges. If you want to come here, come legally or you are a threat to me and I do not suffer those who threaten me or my family nor do I suffer those fools lightly who would enable you to do so.

[tk27]

Immigration is the triumph of the free market. That much of it is illegal is a testament to the universal truth that when a free market is eliminated a black market will emerge. The only crime these people committed is that they want to enter this country to seek higher wages and better living conditions for themselves by supplying a demand. That they later result to identity fraud is a result of government attempts to get between supply and demand (1986 Immigration Bills created to punish employers of illegals led to the proliferation of false id). This is much like current and previous attempts by the government to get between supply and demand. Think of prohibition times, you run rum into the country in violation of a morally unjust law and you are forced into breaking a myriad of other laws (tax fraud, etc). Such a system that condemns otherwise a good person into a vicious cycle of being a criminal for a victimless crime, I believe is wrong. Yes, this is a libertarian strain of logic, yes it can be applied to other issues, and yes I will disagree with many on these issues too.

The notion that these people hurt the lots of citizens and otherwise drain the resources of the country is a fallacy. It is based on the zero-sum thinking that our economy is a pie, and your slice of the pie automatically gets smaller if immigrants get some of the pie. This zero-sum thinking is BS and comes from Marxist dogma.

[HOLLiS]

I have had the opportunity to study some law, and discuss law with friends who have taught law or practice it. My understanding part of our legal thinking is the right to challenge a law, but one must be willing to accept the consequences if the challenge fails. Conscientious Objection is a valid argument, but it does not always work. It is part of the check and balance of living in a free society. Society needs order, but not to the extent of tyranny or the lack of order to the point of anarchy.

Part of our legal system is fairness, what applies to one group should be equally applied to another. In our Immigration laws we require a immigrant to fulfill certain obligations. Why should one group fulfill them and another has the opportunity to ignore them? Obviously there are special consideration depending on a individual case. Setting that aside, why should a group be allowed to violate the laws of this nation with impunity bases on "mob rule", one with the loudest voice. A. Hamilton address the problems of "Mob Rule" in the founding of this nation. Our constitution is design to protect the minority from the excessive of the majority. If we succumbed to the rule of the mob, we will loose our constitutional rights and liberties.

I see this issue mixed with legal questions, humanitarian issues, economic impact, some international issues, social issues and probably some issues based on the lesser of inter human relationships.

A mountain can be moved, maybe not at one time, but most assuredly one rock at a time. I think it is a poor notion to try to make one big cure for this problem. Each issue need to be addressed and resolved with in the legal, moral, and ethnical frame work of this country. As Americans we need to address a American solution. Relying on other countries will only convolute this issue.

This issue is NOT a USA vs. Mexico issue, it really is based on what is right for this country and it's people. Mexico needs to resolve it's own problems. What manner Mexico chooses can help or hinder our goals of a equitable, fair and just solution. If we are force to carry all the burden, then let us choose what is completely best for us.

[The Reaper]

The notion that these people hurt the lots of citizens and otherwise drain the resources of the country is a fallacy. It is based on the zero-sum thinking that our economy is a pie, and your slice of the pie automatically gets smaller if immigrants get some of the pie. This zero-sum thinking is BS and comes from Marxist dogma.

I must be missing something here.

Please explain how feeding, housing, educating, healing, treating, incarcerating and caring for a large part of over 13 million people who have broken the law repeatedly makes the economy better for all of us? Couldn't we do better picking the ones we want to come here, issuing a visa, and requiring the businessman who wants them working to sponsor them?

What message do we send to those waiting to come here legally when we let millions come here illegally?

IIRC, Nationalist Socialism under a benevolent dictator is a more efficient form of government as well, but I don't want to live under it.

TR

[HOLLiS]

Tk, I am not so fond of Libertarians, They grew out of the YAF in the 60's, But the draft created a paradox. Some of the not so ardent followers did not want to actually fight communism when there was a possibility of getting killed. That created the "no government" forcing anyone to do anything concept.

For me, Libertarians is another form of social hedonism. BTW I was in YAF as a kid, I went and fought. If good people don't stand against evil, evil WILL prevail.

[uboat509]

Or at least they would be if so many Republicans weren't bound and determined to act like nothing better than know-nothing nativists.
This is exactly what I am talking about. The reframing of the issue from illegal immigration to general immigration. I have not read a single person here say that we should put a stop to all immigration only illegal immigration and yet there is the characterization that we are "know nothing nativists", which is a politer way of saying racists or xenophobes.

SFC W

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

I must be missing something here.

TR

Me too!

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Such a system that condemns otherwise a good person into a vicious cycle of being a criminal for a victimless crime, I believe is wrong. Yes, this is a libertarian strain of logic, yes it can be applied to other issues, and yes I will disagree with many on these issues too.
.

Oh Please! No one condemned anyone to do anything. This is personal choice and personal action. They were not placed into this situation by anyone but themselves when they chose to break the law. The had to make an effort to come here to break the law and in some cases paid to come here knowing full well that they were breaking our laws. You talk like they are locked into a never ending cycle in which they have no options. They have options and they chose to pick one that happens to be against our laws. Like it or not they are criminals and whatever strain of "logic" you might want to apply to that they are here illegally. Victimless crime, hardly.

[Roguish Lawyer]

The notion that these people hurt the lots of citizens and otherwise drain the resources of the country is a fallacy. It is based on the zero-sum thinking that our economy is a pie, and your slice of the pie automatically gets smaller if immigrants get some of the pie. This zero-sum thinking is BS and comes from Marxist dogma.

Harsh way to put it, but I agree.

[Roguish Lawyer]

I must be missing something here.

Please explain how feeding, housing, educating, healing, treating, incarcerating and caring for a large part of over 13 million people who have broken the law repeatedly makes the economy better for all of us?

The suggestion that we are doing this is completely false. You are exaggerating quite a bit in the heat of the argument.

[dennisw]

Our company recently purchase some new trucks and I put the two older ones up for sale. The person who bought the first truck was an illegal immigrant. Paid me in cash. He is going to use the truck in his tree trimming business.

I ask him about his business. Do you have a contractors' license? No. Do you have liability insurance? No. Do you have Workman's Compensation insurance? No. How do most people pay you? Cash.

So somewhere there is a company that has met all these requirements, but can't compete. Yeah, but consumers are getting a lower price to get their trees trimmed. Right? The illegal immigrant/illegal contractor is going to spend the money he makes in our economy, so what's the problem? Well the guy who is now out of business would have also spent the money in our economy. He would also pay taxes, and if one of his employees was injured, he would receive medical care. What happens to the injured employee of the illegal contractor? You got it, he's now on the dole. So is it just that this particular home owner save some money on tree trimming services, or did we collectively just subsidize their maintenance.

And this is a good thing? These folks don't believe in any laws. Why don't we let them practice medicine or law without a license? What's the big deal? They're just trying to better themselves. Provide for their faimilies. Just think how much we will all save on our legal and medical bills. Sure the quality of medicine and law will go down, but look how much money we're saving.

While were at it, why do they need to pay rent or pay their mortage payments? If they commit a capital crime, they'll just scoot across the border until the heat dies down. Don't cry little billy, they'll be back with a brand new shiny name and identity, and they will be just as willing to save some consumers some more money. Because if we have ours and they're not a threat to our particular livelihood, then it's all about us saving some money isn't it? What could be more important than that? I mean after all, they don't live in our neighboorhood. They don't go to school with our kids. wink, wink.

What about those poor souls, those American citizens who are displaced in the work force? Well, let them eat cake.

By the way, we also need to take special care when it comes to the education of their children. Mr. Citizen, I realize your child has worked hard in school, but there's no more room in our colleges. The last few spots have been given to children of illegal immigrants. Why? They're trying to improve their life and provide for their families. What's that, oh you must be a racist or a Marxist?

On second thought, f**k them and the mule the rode in on.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Why should I approve of someone who decides to ignore one law to get here, another to obtain fraudulent ID, another when they avoid paying taxes, what law should constitute one they should obey? Requirements to have insurance, not to drive after drinking excessively, murder, what? Slippery slope there counsel.


The point is that, contrary to what many have suggested here, illegality by itself does not necessarily make something wrong.

I am willing to bet that you have exceeded the speed limit before. :D

Yeah, this country really needs more people here without high school educations and few skills who do not speak the language. I was just telling my wife the other night, man we really need more people like that.:rolleyes:

I think we do, actually. Americans increasingly are lazy and unwilling to do hard work. Funny how people like to say that when talking about their employees or "these kids today," but they get offended by it when we discuss the need for migrant workers.


Are you equating illegally crossing an international border and identity fraud with freeing slaves or protecting Jews? Then you must feel that immigration law and the sanctity of international borders are wrong. Hmm, I guess that the Germans really weren't invading all of those countries as much as they were coming to the assistance of German people living there. Would it be wrong for a bunch of them to move into your backyard and build a shack there without your permission? How about if they want to borrow your car for a while? At gunpoint? They just want to carry a few small packages across the border and back, won't take long. Are you okay with that as well? You going to let the Muslim cross the border as well, if he claims to be Mexican? You didn't stop them, how can you stop him? Profiling? Discrimination? Call the ACLU! Why do we send the Haitians back, they have the same human rights as Mexicans don't they?

LOL, I made a simple point, which went over everyone's head, which is that illegality by itself does not make something bad. I favor relaxing our immigration laws, not attempting to enforce the ones we have in the manner many are suggesting.


Jury nullification is when a jury of my peers decides to try the law as well as the case. I do not think that a bunch of illegal aliens get to make the law in the United States, whether they disagree with it or not. Maybe you would like to make them my peers and give them that right, even if the judge's instructions have to be translated for them. Looking forward to seeing how you Yanquis are treated in Nuevo Mexico, in a very few years.

Hasta luego, gringo!

I think you are not terribly familiar with jury composition these days. Juries are not composed of your peers or mine. The issue here is whether to allow more people to move here legally or not.

You say that legal immigration is good, and illegal immigration is bad. So if we allow more people to immigrate here legally, require them to obey criminal laws, and modify the welfare system to limit the government benefits available to them, what's the problem?

:munchin

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Harsh way to put it, but I agree.

Okay but let's define the terms we are not talking immigrants we are talking illegal immigrants and now we are beginning to mix apple pie and orange pie. When you expend resources on folks that would otherwise not be here then the resources that are available for other programs no longer exist. If you want to argue that the illegals are contributing to the economy by providing a service then you are still losing resources because of money sent home, taxes not paid by either the illegals or the employers. If you provide a conduit for illegal entry by providing safe havens you are providing what essentially amounts to Mission Support Sites for other illegal and terrorist activities. If you are here illegally and wish to protect your status what prevents folks from who know your status from engaging you for the execution of other activities from gathering intelligence to commiting illegal and other acts? So you use facilities for medical care and do not pay because someone else spends their dollars in term of higher premiums for insurance to cover you and those resources are no longer available. There are resources used to deal with these folks that would other wise be used elsewhere and more productively so I fail to understand this argument, then perhaps I just don't share your perspective because I do not have your educational background and experience of dealing with this situation. I come from the old school, whose lesson plans are probably no longer valid, that says in order to resolve the problem you have to eliminate the threat/cause and not treat the symptom.
But hell, what do I know?

[HOLLiS]

The point is that, contrary to what many have suggested here, illegality by itself does not necessarily make something wrong.

I am willing to bet that you have exceeded the speed limit before. :D


My understanding, if you challenge a law, who have to be prepared to face the consequences. Ok I choose to speed. I get a Ticket, The officer was doing his job, I pay the fine. Old song lyrics, "I fought the law, but the law won".

When I choose to speed, I am say I know more than the engineers, road safety people, and local official on road speeds. (actually I was on street safety committee). When I go to court what is my defense? Do you think I can adequately defend my choice to speed? Maybe there are mitigating issues, but generally I don't think there is a defense.

If the Government passes a Unjust law, I can challenge it, if I loose I pay the fine. NOW is the law on Immigration unjust? I think it is unjust to require legal immigrants to jump all the hoops to become Americans, when all one needs to do (according to some) is Just break the law, enter the country illegally and you can become a American Citizen.

Obviously there are Issue unique to the being Illegal. Often when a Illegal immigrant is victimized, they won't go to the police. This is the same for pot growers, drug smugglers, etc. Not being able to get a drivers license can prevent a Illegal from getting insurance. ALL of this is because they choose to be Illegal in the first place. Just like the pot grower, choose to grow weed. They will naturally not inform the police if some one steals some weed from them, they will not report the income, they will not report the expenses associated with weed production.

Maybe pot growers can protest, that if they report a theft of weed, they should not beheld accountable for growing weed. Should we allow that? No different in supporting Drivers license for Illegals. The initial act is still unlawful. If they where not Illegal immigrants they would not be in this country and would not need a drivers license in this country.

Ok for hard work, the weed grower is not on welfare, he works hard, uses the money to buy all sorts of stuff, feeds his kids, and other stuff that supports the local economy. So weed growers should then have amnesty? Besides he is a loving father, etc, etc........ so that means he should not be punished from breaking the law?

Back to speeding, I am speeding and I get the ticket. I go to the Judge, tell the judge, I am a hard working person, I love my wife and kids, I support the local economy, I pay taxes, my cars are insured, and etc......... Do you honestly think the Judge will say, "your free to go"?

Do you think if I rob a bank because my kids are hungry, that would excuse me from the crime. I am speeding to get to the hospital, because my wife is in labor, and I squish someone in the cross walk, do think the court would say, "forget it, you had good reason for be speeding"?

[The Reaper]

The suggestion that we are doing this is completely false. You are exaggerating quite a bit in the heat of the argument.

Which part is false?

That we are feeding, housing, educating, healing, treating, incarcerating and caring for them?

TR

[tk27]

Post

Sir, I do argue that illegals contribute to the pie, a ridged empirical cost-benefit analysis of illegals however cannot be done due to lack of data available. I would argue that the benefits from illegals that make us economically competitive (and thus lower both yours and my taxes, bigger slice of pie) outweigh the costs we burden from illegals. Believe me, I do not like it either.

We both want to secure our country. My comment earlier that illegals are condemned to a cycle of crime is not some lefty "they are victims of societies racism" argument. In 1986 after President Reagan's amnesty for illegals, laws were enacted to target businesses that used illegals. This did not stop the flow of illegals, rather it just led to the proliferation of document forgery (more crime). The Government did not provide help for business owners to authenticate documents. Why? I would contend because they didn’t really care and the economic good outweighed the bad, and the legislation was little more then a band aide and mere lip service to Nativist constituents. I use this story to illustrate the point that we make criminals out people who want to better their lot in this world by doing our grunt work. This is not because of LE failures or any other .gov agency, rather it is our nations failure to recognize our dependence on cheap unskilled labor. There is nothing shameful in this dependence; rather our denial of empirical reality and the destructive forces it brings with is shameful.

We both agree that America is at war, and that many a hindquarter needs kicking, yet have a fixed a number of ass-kickers. Acknowledging our problem, adapting policy accordingly, and executing efficient border control, will free up .gov and .mil resources to handle the largest threat we face and kick AQ ass.

[The Reaper]

The point is that, contrary to what many have suggested here, illegality by itself does not necessarily make something wrong.

I am willing to bet that you have exceeded the speed limit before. :D

I think we do, actually. Americans increasingly are lazy and unwilling to do hard work. Funny how people like to say that when talking about their employees or "these kids today," but they get offended by it when we discuss the need for migrant workers.

LOL, I made a simple point, which went over everyone's head, which is that illegality by itself does not make something bad. I favor relaxing our immigration laws, not attempting to enforce the ones we have in the manner many are suggesting.

I think you are not terribly familiar with jury composition these days. Juries are not composed of your peers or mine. The issue here is whether to allow more people to move here legally or not.

You say that legal immigration is good, and illegal immigration is bad. So if we allow more people to immigrate here legally, require them to obey criminal laws, and modify the welfare system to limit the government benefits available to them, what's the problem?

:munchin


Would the government of Mexico treat it as a traffic offense if I moved there illegally, forged documents, and took a job? I think that they would, and my protesting in the streets would have little effect on the policy.

I think that to some degree, the laziness of our youth is a logical conclusion of having an excess of people willing to do menial jobs for half the wages, off the books, and our own largesse. I clean my own house, mow my own yard, and watch my own kids. Maybe things are different for the rich and the powerful.

Your simple point attempted to equate a couple of serious examples of social disobedience to illegal immigration. I am not a man who makes a living with my words, but I found the comparison distasteful and irrelevant.

Your statement that you would rather change the laws is out of place. The main priority in first aid is to deal with the most serious injuries. In this case, the first priority is to seal the border. Every day that we do not, thousands more arrive to further complicate the problem. Lock down the border, make the new laws, send the illegals back as soon as we can find them, and THEN allow new applications as WE need them, NOT as they feel like coming over illegally or not. Maybe we only need 2 million low wage workers here. We can fine tune the numbers as we go.

I recently sat on a jury. It appears to me that the jury is composed of whomever the defense attorney is willing to let sit on it. If I am being tried by jury, I hope that my legal representation is competent enough to select a jury which will be open minded, if not favorably disposed towards me. You brought up the jury issue when you used a jury nullification argument to try and bait me.

I think that we have an excess of illegal aliens here now, and that they should be cycled out of here as soon as they are caught. We can then let those who want to follow the rules (and their prospective employers) come back in as we need them. We can use that to process to screen out the criminals, the mentally defective, those with no reason to go back when they are done, just like we do at every embassy in the world. Should the ability to buy a plane ticket to the US allow anyone who wants to come here to do so? You seem to indicate that it should.

Maybe that is the crux of the matter. I only want the ones here that we need, and who will follow the rules to get here. You seem to feel that everyone who is physically able of getting here should be admitted.

You know as well as I do that it is virtually impossible to eliminate an entitlement. The odds of you being able to eliminate benefits for illegal aliens are about as good as that of you flapping your arms and taking flight. That is especially true in states with Democrats in control.

For your speeding analogy, if I break the law, I am prepared to accept the consequences. I do not plan to march in the streets demanding that the limit be raised to whatever I want, sceam racism, and demand retroactive innocence.

You seem to be using a lot of flawed anologies to justify an invasion of our country by illegals and further criminal conduct while here. I believe in the sovereignty of my country and the sanctity of her borders. I guess that you do not, so we will have to agree to disagree about that.

TR

[tk27]

Tk, I am not so fond of Libertarians, They grew out of the YAF in the 60's, But the draft created a paradox. Some of the not so ardent followers did not want to actually fight communism when there was a possibility of getting killed. That created the "no government" forcing anyone to do anything concept.

For me, Libertarians is another form of social hedonism. BTW I was in YAF as a kid, I went and fought. If good people don't stand against evil, evil WILL prevail.

Sir, libertarians may have found new supporters from YAF (Young Americans for Freedom?*) in the 60's, but it is a political philosophy that goes far beyond then. I do not disagree with you that the government has the right to conduct a draft. You did the honorable thing and served, personally I am guilt ridden being on the sidelines in the GWOT (ineligible).
Was it a mistake to enact the draft for war in SEA in order follow a policy of containment? I don’t know, perhaps we could have this conversation sometime.

As far as a form of social hedonism goes, this very well maybe true. But is it not ultimately your decision? I believe in the virtues of traditional / Judeo-Christian values, but is this not a personal / family matter not something to be legislated? Again, another conversation to be had in another thread should you like.


*There are 2 YAF’s that I know of, Young Americans for Freedom and the Young Americans Foundation. I am more familiar the Young American Foundation a conservative student activist organization affiliated with the late President Reagan.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Which part is false?

That we are feeding, housing, educating, healing, treating, incarcerating and caring for them?

TR

Yes.

[dennisw]

You say that legal immigration is good, and illegal immigration is bad. So if we allow more people to immigrate here legally, require them to obey criminal laws, and modify the welfare system to limit the government benefits available to them, what's the problem?

Isn't this what we have now? We have set a quota on legal immigration and we expect them to obey criminal laws. Why do we need to relax immigration laws? We should only do so if we beleive it's to our benefit. Who driving the decision? Should we relax the laws only because they will come in illegally anyway?

How is that prudent? I guess we will let Mexico and illegal immigrants decide our policy for us.

[The Reaper]

Yes.

Well, which one of those do you think that we are not doing?

We have 100,000 illegal aliens incarcerated, which means with that group alone, we are doing everything I stated.

What do you have to demonstrate that we are not?

TR

[dennisw]

Sir, I do argue that illegals contribute to the pie, a ridged empirical cost-benefit analysis of illegals however cannot be done due to lack of data available. I would argue that the benefits from illegals that make us economically competitive (and thus lower both yours and my taxes, bigger slice of pie) outweigh the costs we burden from illegals. Believe me, I do not like it either.

If a cost-benefit analysis cannot be done, how can you make this assertion? What do you mean that they make us more competitive? On an international basis? If that were true, why are we outsourcing so much of our manufacturing to other countries?

If you are talking about domestic competition, then your premise makes little sense. All they do is shift resources to businesses that practice llegal hiring policies.

[Roguish Lawyer]

allow new applications as WE need them, NOT as they feel like coming over illegally or not. Maybe we only need 2 million low wage workers here. We can fine tune the numbers as we go.
. . .

I only want the ones here that we need

So the Government should decide what "we" need?

This is why someone else called this Marxist. I've got news for you -- these people wouldn't be coming here if there wasn't a demand for them. This is a capitalist country, and we (should) allow decisions to be made by markets, not by the government.

[Roguish Lawyer]

I clean my own house, mow my own yard, and watch my own kids. Maybe things are different for the rich and the powerful.

. . . I am not a man who makes a living with my words


When someone starts trying to insult me, I know I'm making progress. :D

[Roguish Lawyer]

Your statement that you would rather change the laws is out of place. The main priority in first aid is to deal with the most serious injuries. In this case, the first priority is to seal the border. Every day that we do not, thousands more arrive to further complicate the problem.


This assumes that illegal immigrants are a serious problem, which I dispute.

[Roguish Lawyer]

I recently sat on a jury. It appears to me that the jury is composed of whomever the defense attorney is willing to let sit on it. If I am being tried by jury, I hope that my legal representation is competent enough to select a jury which will be open minded, if not favorably disposed towards me. You brought up the jury issue when you used a jury nullification argument to try and bait me.



There certainly are exceptions, but in a very large number of jurisdictions, the only people who get into the jury pool in the first place are those with nothing better to do. There is no such thing as a jury of one's peers in many cases. That's why jury reform is an important issue for me.

I think I succeeded in baiting you, by the way. ;) :D

[Roguish Lawyer]

I believe in the sovereignty of my country and the sanctity of her borders. I guess that you do not, so we will have to agree to disagree about that.


No, I do too. But I believe that we should welcome the tired, the poor and the huddled masses yearning to breathe free. Maybe that's become I am only a fourth-generation American.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Our company recently purchase some new trucks and I put the two older ones up for sale. The person who bought the first truck was an illegal immigrant. Paid me in cash. He is going to use the truck in his tree trimming business.

I ask him about his business. Do you have a contractors' license? No. Do you have liability insurance? No. Do you have Workman's Compensation insurance? No. How do most people pay you? Cash.

So somewhere there is a company that has met all these requirements, but can't compete.

Let me guess. You were against NAFTA too, weren't you?

BTW, if the guy was permitted to immigrate here legally, he would have no fear of going to get licenses, insurance, etc. It is the pointless and futile restrictions on immigration that cause this problem, not the other way around.

And you don't think there are U.S. citizens running businesses that don't comply with licensing and insurance requirements? Please. :rolleyes:

[Roguish Lawyer]

Well, which one of those do you think that we are not doing?

We have 100,000 illegal aliens incarcerated, which means with that group alone, we are doing everything I stated.

What do you have to demonstrate that we are not?

TR

You make it sound like we are doing these things for all of them, which is ridiculous. So 100,000 are incarcerated out of 15 million, so?

Illegal immigration is not a problem in and of itself. Everything people are complaining about results in part from the restrictions on immigration (i.e., illegal immigrants are afraid to buy insurance, get licensed, get bank accounts, etc. for fear of being found and deported) and in part from flaws in our system (i.e., inadequate criminal penalties and enforcement for certain types of conduct, excessive social welfare programs, etc.).

[The Reaper]

When someone starts trying to insult me, I know I'm making progress. :D

No, arguing is your profession.

I am but a rank amateur.

I am not going to clog up the bandwidth on this board by responding to your posts piecemeal, as you did with mine. Are you trying to pump up your post count, Counsel?

So the Government should decide what "we" need?

This is why someone else called this Marxist. I've got news for you -- these people wouldn't be coming here if there wasn't a demand for them. This is a capitalist country, and we (should) allow decisions to be made by markets, not by the government.

Last time I checked, "We the People" included the government. So you think that the numbers of illegals who want more money and benefits should decide how many we let in, rather than the numbers of employers who want them and will agree to a sponsorship? I thought that you were a capitalist, Sir? Why are we sending the Haitians home? Why not let in as many as want to come? That sounds like anarchy to me. A nation which cannot secure its borders is not going to last for very long.

There certainly are exceptions, but in a very large number of jurisdictions, the only people who get into the jury pool in the first place are those with nothing better to do. There is no such thing as a jury of one's peers in many cases. That's why jury reform is an important issue for me.

The way things are in Kalifornia, despite your belief, are not necessarily the way things are in the rest of the United States.

No, I do too. But I believe that we should welcome the tired, the poor and the huddled masses yearning to breathe free. Maybe that's become I am only a fourth-generation American.

Then why will you not stipulate now for the record that you feel the borders should be secured? As far as your quote goes, you would do well to talk to theDoS and see what kind of immigrants they approve of. Probably not too many from your list, but then again, we have 13,000,000 of those here illegally already. The Mexicans get first dibs, because they can walk here. How many more would like to come? Where do you draw the line?

You make it sound like we are doing these things for all of them, which is ridiculous. So 100,000 are incarcerated out of 15 million, so?

Illegal immigration is not a problem in and of itself. Everything people are complaining about results in part from the restrictions on immigration (i.e., illegal immigrants are afraid to buy insurance, get licensed, get bank accounts, etc. for fear of being found and deported) and in part from flaws in our system (i.e., inadequate criminal penalties and enforcement for certain types of conduct, excessive social welfare programs, etc.).

That Sir, is merely the number incarcerated. Can you not understand the massive numbers of illegals on food stamps, Medicare, in our emergency rooms, clogging our classrooms? Now, after they broke our laws repeatedly, you want to give them unearned citizenship and full benefits at the expense of those who follow the rules and wait their turns?

I think not. That is not why I served.

TR

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

No, I do too. But I believe that we should welcome the tired, the poor and the huddled masses yearning to breathe free. Maybe that's become I am only a fourth-generation American.

Yes we should, but let's do it through the auspices of something akin to Ellis Island and not some frigging Tijuana Tunnel Express. I have been many places where border controls are tighter than what passes as Nancy Pelosi's mind and have negotiated some of the same. We have borders that function more like osmosis than a barrier. We are not only welcoming the tired, the poor, and the huddled masses but the very dregs of the world who wish to destroy the very ideals you all so want us to shower on those that think it is their god-given right to take without meeting the basic requirements for legal attainment. I hope your son will be able to play hockey some day as a fifth-generation American in a country that still is derived "from many comes one" where he has the same legitimate rights and privileges in this melting pot which is beginning to resemble a stew. Where he can compete for whatever he wants on an even keel. I fear that this may not be the case until we crank up the blender and do what is necessary to assimilate those who come uninvited and who give a rats ass less about your son's rights as long as they can get theirs at any cost.

[dennisw]

And you don't think there are U.S. citizens running businesses that don't comply with licensing and insurance requirements? Please.

I'm not saying that there are not citizens or legal immigrants who operate a foul of the system. However, in the construction world most people have to supply certificates of insurane, etc. before you are allowed on jobsite. However there is a secondary construction market where these folks mostly exist. This market is mostly related to home improvement. I'm saying that many of these folks are involved in this market, and they are used to flying under the radar and their operating costs are unfairly low. Any contractor who competes against them is competing in an inequitable market. This market also impacts the other markets.

If problems arise through subpar workmanship or injuries, these folks just evaporate and every legitimate contractor's cost of doing business is adversely impacted.

Additonally, I believe the argument that they pay taxes, etc. is bogus. I believe the number of illegals who do not pay taxes is inordinately higher then legals/citizens who do not.

[tk27]

If a cost-benefit analysis cannot be done, how can you make this assertion? What do you mean that they make us more competitive? On an international basis? If that were true, why are we outsourcing so much of our manufacturing to other countries?

If you are talking about domestic competition, then your premise makes little sense. All they do is shift resources to businesses that practice llegal hiring policies.

Sir, they make us globally competitive because they allow for specialization and core competencies. It is a stretch, but stay with me for a second and think of the Army. The 18 MOS is a competitive specialty. Peeling potatoes however, while certainly a necessity, can be completed by many people. If SF members had to spend an hour a day peeling potatoes, that would be one less hour to refine skills like language, shooting, and other advanced competencies. Therefore the task of peeling potatoes is delegated off, allowing for specialization. Following a model like this the Army outsourced peeling potatoes to companies like KBR to allow for soldiers to focus on kicking-ass (this benefits of this practice when in war is currently being debated).
Similarly because people no longer harvest their own crops themselves, pour their own concrete or other necessary but time consuming tasks, it allows them to specialize and become real good at something. This ability to specialize makes us competitive in the global market, just like how it allows for our Army to kick ass globally.

Contruction

Construction for the most part is a union influenced field. Companies and workers who collectively get together to promote their self interest (nothing wrong with this), they promote their self interest like anyother bureaucracy by creating barriers to entry. Purposely driving up the cost of doing buisiness. That is should I choose add a deck to my house, I need a permit, this costs. If I hire a company to do it for me in a non-right to work state, then the companies employees have to be union members, this costs more. Now take this concept and apply it many sectors of the economy and gov't services. Does it make us competitive?

Additonally, I believe the argument that they pay taxes, etc. is bogus. I believe the number of illegals who do not pay taxes is inordinately higher then legals/citizens who do not.
They do pay sales taxes. Some do pay income under bogus soc-sec accounts but they ones do usualy dont see the perks from it. They shouldnt get services if they dont pay in I dont disagree, I think they should pay and want a practicle way for them to do so. But this would kill the demand for them because they are now not cheap unless current labor legislation is changed. Absent that the status quo suffices.

[HOLLiS]

You make it sound like we are doing these things for all of them, which is ridiculous. So 100,000 are incarcerated out of 15 million, so?



The cost of incarceration is what $50,000 - $80,000 per year per individual. Not to mention court cost, legal fees, and Police time.

At $50 K per year that is $5,000,000,000 to incarcerate 100,000 people for a year. That could really help a bunch of Schools, roads etc. 5 billion dollars is a BIG deal.

Also on medical expenses, who pays? If they cannot pay the cost stills get passed on.

Demand you say, do you know about the economic strategy of Push/Pull? BTW I did take economics up to 500 series and even read Marx and Lenin, That does not apply. What would apply to Marxism is International proletarian Movement, not the restriction of that movement. Cheap labor dose not necessary benefit the workers, it does benefit the employer (read the arguments against Wal-Mart moving into a community). Most people really don't like sharing their wealth. Basic Economics 101, "more is preferred to less". You cannot expect the "BOSS" to share his benefits from a cheap labor source with the Laborers or even the market.

Libertarian economic has lots of holes in it. The US government is made up of people, the Market mechanism is run by people too. With out adequate checks and balance, power, the ability to manipulate and control, would shift from the people to a hand full of individual, who, as history has pointed out, will use that control for their own interest. (US Industrial history Late 1800's)

Should the market decide, or be the only decision maker? It does in some countries, Child pornography, exploitation of natural resources, Exploitation of workers, Corruption of public official, etc. Illegal operations are still part of the market mechanism of supply and demand. Ok a extreme example if the demand for Hit-man was not there, there would be no hit-men. Does demand justify allowing a market supply to exists?

It is expressed in economics in many classes, that when a person is on the outside they want reduce barriers to entry, when they enter they want to lock the door on entry. It has to do with human behavior.

[Detonics]

Let's just zoom in on a little slice of the pie and examine it.

Someone is assigned to locate witnesses in a sexual assault on a child case. All of the witnesses are Hispanic. All of the witnesses are male, have their d.o.b. and SSN listed in the report.

All of the SSN's per credit bureau's reports are for a mixture of males and females living out of state, several of the SSN belong to octogenarians, a good portion of the SSN's were issued before the witnesses were born. Out of seven witnesses 4 of the SSN's were associated with subjects having an extensive criminal history with multiple deportations. One had a list of alias information that was a page and a half long.

Three of the witnesses had outstanding child support orders with public assistance arrearages accrued by the custodial parent of over 35k (one was over 70k). One of the witnesses had managed to father 5 children (4 of which were in public schools) between bouts of domestic violence and incarcerations on narcotics, agg assault and traffic (no insurance) charges. His oldest child is in high school; had a string of juv charges and has continued the family tradition of beating and impregnating a female who then goes on to a career in public assistance collection.

I can tell you that the above situation is becoming ever more commonplace and that our justice, correction and government services will not be able to keep up with the situation indefinitely.

You could go to any of the 2 bedroom apartments in the 4 plex and find folks with the same type of identification, the same criminal history. Most all of these people work in the labor industry, most building new residential housing. There are over 20 of these 4 plex's on each blocks and they cover multiple blocks on multiple streets. These streets have dust for yards, substandard maintenance on the property. Trash swirls in the wind. Broken bottles in the streets mixed in with used diapers dropped on the parking lot.

I don't hate these people. I believe that we are going to see a lowering in the standards of living in many areas, to say nothing of the level of protection that the police and justice system can provide if nothing is done to remedy this problem.

The only benefit that illegal immigration provides is to:

(1) Big business, which can eliminate overhead in terms of vacation, health / medical, workers comp benefits and lower the prevailing wages. The cost of health/medical coverage and workers comp are transferred to the taxpayers when the illegal employee and their dependants utilize the emergency room services for their medical needs. Look at the number of hospitals closing or in deep red ink over this issue.

(2) The Mexican government. Mexico depends on the stream of income from its citizens working illegally in the United States. Mexico is one of the most highly stratified countries in the world in terms of the rich and the poor and is becoming more so every year.

Does anyone here really believe we are doing Mexico and its people a good turn by encouraging reliance on the proceeds of workers illegally in the U.S.? These are our neighbors! We should be encouraging the Mexican government to raise its standards of wages and services to its people.

By all means lets modify the worker programs to allow people to come in and work if they'd like. But we have to screen for those with health problems and criminal history and make sure everyone knows that they are guest workers not potential citizens. Likewise we need to streamline the path and set standards for citizenship for whatever number of people that our government decides would be of benefit for our country.

America is truly the "Great Melting Pot" but when you have clumps that don't melt and begin to clog up the works, sometimes you must turn up the heat or strain out the mixture. :munchin

[tk27]

- Assimilation is an important issue, and always has been in the immigration debate in this country. History has shown that our nation very good at the process. People do not come here to be part of a mixed salad and be diverse, they come here to jump in the melting pot and better their lives. This includes speaking English, it may not be the case for the 1st Generation who works his tail off, but it will be for the rest after that. History has shown this. If maracas and congas are added traditional high school marching bands, and our nations skin pigmentation darkens a little so be it. It’s the ideas that matter.

- As far as border checkpoints, a resilient adversary will always overcome static defenses correct? So why inhibit the flow of fuel (cheap labor) necessary for economic security under physical security which hinges on economic security? Why not co-opt the necessary flow of illegals, mitigating the opportunity for terrorists blend in with them. And continue to be on the offense and kill the enemy?

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

- Assimilation is an important issue, and always has been in the immigration debate in this country. History has shown that our nation very good at the process. People do not come here to be part of a mixed salad and be diverse, they come here to jump in the melting pot and better their lives. This includes speaking English, it may not be the case for the 1st Generation who works his tail off, but it will be for the rest after that. History has shown this. If maracas and congas are added traditional high school marching bands, and our nations skin pigmentation darkens a little so be it. It’s the ideas that matter.

- As far as border checkpoints, a resilient adversary will always overcome static defenses correct? So why inhibit the flow of fuel (cheap labor) necessary for economic security under physical security which hinges on economic security? Why not co-opt the necessary flow of illegals, mitigating the opportunity for terrorists blend in with them. And continue to be on the offense and kill the enemy?

ROTFLMAO!

[tk27]

ROTFLMAO!

Sir, either my prose is comedic or my contentions are comedic, I hope for the former not the latter.

[uboat509]

And you don't think there are U.S. citizens running businesses that don't comply with licensing and insurance requirements? Please. :rolleyes:
Those people are punished when they are caught opperating that way. The difference that the illegals MUST, by virtue of their situation, operate that way.

SFC W

[The Reaper]

Math:

4000 illegals arriving per night

750 "anchor babies" born of this side of the border every day (most deliveries on the public dime). More on this later.

$2,700.00 in welfare money per head of household over and above any taxes he or she pays. 36 to 42% of illegal aliens are on welfare. 15 to 20 million illegal aliens in the USA, annual total: $20 billion dollars

$7,161.00 average annual cost per illegal alien child in school K-12 is $7,161.00, total $109 billion annually

75 percent of illegal drugs arrive from Mexico at a net cost of $120 billion per year of cash, most of which leaves our country for good

63 percent of illegal immigrants have not finished high school

30% of prison inmates are illegal aliens, costing $6 billion annually in prison costs to house, feed and clothe them

$1,200.00 per illegal alien student for bilingual education

$27 billion to provide forms, ballots, interpreters and brochures for languages other than English in 2003

$56 billion in cash illegal migrants sent to their home countries every year

43 percent of uninsured US residents are illegal aliens

$200 million to provide for emergency health care for illegal aliens in the Border States annually.

California, with over three million illegals paid $79 million, Four of their major LA hospitals bankrupted and shut their doors in 2004.

Texas, with 1.5 million illegal aliens paid $74 million in hospital care.

Georgia ran a $63 million deficit for 64,000 unpaid doctor visits to their Grady Health Care system in 2002. In the same year, Georgia taxpayers paid $27 million for 11,188 anchor baby hospital births. Georgia taxpayers paid a whopping $242 million for educating illegal alien kids in 2003.

Fine per illegal alien hired: $10,000.00 and up to five years in prison.

Employers sent to jail for knowingly employing illegal aliens - Zero. Only 22 companies in 2003 were even taken to court for hiring illegal aliens.

$55,200.00 lifetime net fiscal drain—taxes paid minus services used—for an adult illegal immigrant according to Carrying Capacity Network

Fifth richest economy in the world - Mexico. Mexico has a free market economy that recently entered the trillion dollar class.

3.6% unemployment rate in Mexico

1.863 million bbl/day (2004) - Oil exports from Mexico

3,500 hectares - cultivation of opium poppy in Mexico during 2004

9 metric tons of pure heroin, or 23 metric tons of "black tar" heroin, produced in Mexico every year

10,400 metric tons of marijuana cultivted in Mexico during 2004

major supplier of heroin and largest foreign supplier of marijuana and methamphetamine to the US market; continues as the primary transshipment country for US-bound cocaine from South America, accounting for about 90% of estimated annual cocaine movement to the US; major drug syndicates control majority of drug trafficking throughout the country; producer and distributor of ecstasy; significant money-laundering center

Based on Census Bureau data, the study estimates that households headed by illegal aliens used $10 billion more in government services than they paid in taxes in 2002. These figures are only for the federal government; costs at the state and local level are also likely to be significant. The study also finds that if illegals were given amnesty, the fiscal deficit at the federal level would grow to nearly $29 billion.

Among the largest federal costs: Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

If illegal aliens were legalized and began to pay taxes and use services like legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual fiscal deficit at the federal level would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total federal deficit of $29 billion. (This estimate was done before the Senate voted to extend Social Security benefits to illegal aliens. If enacted into law, look for this number to increase quickly and the date for Medicaid and Social Security to go bust to move up by several years.)

Amnesty increases costs because illegals would still be largely unskilled, and thus their tax payments would continue to be very modest, but once legalized they would be able to access many more government services.

The fact that legal immigrants with little schooling are a fiscal drain on federal coffers does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a drain. Many legal immigrants are highly skilled.

With nearly two-third of illegals lacking a high school diploma, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments — not their legal status or their unwillingness to work.

Example:

Cristobal Silverio emigrated illegally from Mexico to Stockton, Calif., in 1997 to work as a fruit picker.

He brought with him his wife, Felipa, and three children, 19, 12 and 8 – all illegals. When Felipa gave birth to her fourth child, daughter Flor, the family had what is referred to as an "anchor baby" – an American citizen by birth who provided the entire Silverio clan a ticket to remain in the U.S. permanently.

But Flor was born premature, spent three months in the neonatal incubator and cost the San Joaquin Hospital more than $300,000. Meanwhile, oldest daughter Lourdes married an illegal alien gave birth to a daughter, too. Her name is Esmeralda. And Felipa had yet another child, Cristian.

The two Silverio anchor babies generate $1,000 per month in public welfare funding for the family. Flor gets $600 a month for asthma. Healthy Cristian gets $400. While the Silverios earned $18,000 last year picking fruit, they picked up another $12,000 for their two "anchor babies."

Hey, TS: according to the Arizona Department of Motor Vehicles, 57,600 cars were stolen in Phoenix in 2003. It is now the car-jacking capital of the world. Most were SUV’s and pickup trucks, they were transported to the desert near the border and were driven across on back-roads or cross country. At a conservative average of $15,000.00 per vehicle, owner losses exceeded $864 million in Phoenix alone.

Just thought that you should know.

I love the people and the culture, but think we should be doing a better job of screening them, allowing them in, and integrating them into our society.

TR

[tk27]

Math:

$7,161.00 average annual cost per illegal alien child in school K-12 is $7,161.00, total $109 billion annually


$109 billion / $7,161 cost per illegal child in k-12 school = 15,221,337 illegal alien children in the k-12 school system

15,221,337 illegal aliens are k-12 schoolchildren, 15 - 20 million illegals are in this country, therefore the majority of illegal alliens are k-12 schoolchildren.

Sir, you know as well as I do that it is easy to lie w/ statistics.

[HOLLiS]

$109 billion / $7,161 cost per illegal child in k-12 school = 15,221,337 illegal alien children in the k-12 school system

15,221,337 illegal aliens are k-12 schoolchildren, 15 - 20 million illegals are in this country, therefore the majority of illegal alliens are k-12 schoolchildren.

Sir, you know as well as I do that it is easy to lie w/ statistics.

Seem more like a math error than a lie. 109 million total would reduce the 15 Million to 15 thousand. 109 million is still a lot of money.

I seriously doubt if anyone here is playing with statistics to make a WIN

[tk27]

I did not mean to accuse anyone one this lying to win an argument, merely to say it is easy to lie by manipulating data, it is easy to create incindiary statistics. Sure $109 million is alot, but in the federal budget? My hunch is that the Department of Motor Vehicles spends that much in refills for those red "take a number" machines.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Yes we should, but let's do it through the auspices of something akin to Ellis Island and not some frigging Tijuana Tunnel Express. I have been many places where border controls are tighter than what passes as Nancy Pelosi's mind and have negotiated some of the same. We have borders that function more like osmosis than a barrier. We are not only welcoming the tired, the poor, and the huddled masses but the very dregs of the world who wish to destroy the very ideals you all so want us to shower on those that think it is their god-given right to take without meeting the basic requirements for legal attainment. I hope your son will be able to play hockey some day as a fifth-generation American in a country that still is derived "from many comes one" where he has the same legitimate rights and privileges in this melting pot which is beginning to resemble a stew. Where he can compete for whatever he wants on an even keel. I fear that this may not be the case until we crank up the blender and do what is necessary to assimilate those who come uninvited and who give a rats ass less about your son's rights as long as they can get theirs at any cost.

Sir, I believe I agree with what you just said.

I don't think I have anything to add at this time. Perhaps others will choose to weigh in. And, of course, I may elect to do so later. :D

[HOLLiS]

I did not mean to accuse anyone one this lying to win an argument, merely to say it is easy to lie by manipulating data, it is easy to create incindiary statistics. Sure $109 million is alot, but in the federal budget? My hunch is that the Department of Motor Vehicles spends that much in refills for those red "take a number" machines.

where I live, schools are mostly funded locally. The feds have ahabit of mandating services but not supporting them.

As far as DMV, they get their money from fees. Licenses, Plates, etc. Illegal who don't have licenses, register their vehicles are not helping to pay those fees anyway. That just adds to the cost of Illegals being in the USA. Adds to the arguement against them.

[Razor]

I think I've come to a decision...I'm moving to CA, next door to RL, since it appears I can pick the laws I want to follow and ignore those I don't with impunity, and since the market drives government there, I can set up a retail business in water, food and gas, wait for a disaster of some sort and then profiteer to my heart's content (in full cooperation with my fellow retailers, who are also jacking up prices) since its a supply and demand world, baby; screw government protections.

[Roguish Lawyer]

I think I've come to a decision...I'm moving to CA, next door to RL

Cool! We can take turns watching the campaign signs! :D

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Cool! We can take turns watching the campaign signs! :D
And trapping that illegal that has been digging up your backyard, where he has been burying your campaign signs while cleverly disguised as a raccoon:D

[Roguish Lawyer]

And trapping that illegal that has been digging up your backyard, where he has been burying your campaign signs while cleverly disguised as a raccoon:D

LOL! The raccoons have not been seen in the backyard for some time now. It helped when I put the stray cat that Catwoman was feeding to sleep and the grass finally took.

[The Reaper]

It helped when I put the stray cat that Catwoman was feeding to sleep and the grass finally took.

Does she know that you did that?

TR

[dennisw]

Said raccoons have to properly licensed with appropriate insurances. :D

[Roguish Lawyer]

Does she know that you did that?

TR

LOL, yes. Old and sick, the time had come.

[tk27]

I think I've come to a decision...I'm moving to CA, next door to RL, since it appears I can pick the laws I want to follow and ignore those I don't with impunity, and since the market drives government there, I can set up a retail business in water, food and gas, wait for a disaster of some sort and then profiteer to my heart's content (in full cooperation with my fellow retailers, who are also jacking up prices) since its a supply and demand world, baby; screw government protections.

Sir, disagree with your assessment, allow me to explain why in what would be scene 2a of your scenario:

California 2009
Following your migration to California and the ensuing disaster that results in the cartel of water-food-gas retailers that you spearhead, I too will head to California. I will fill my car with as many jerry cans of gas, and cases of food and water as I can. I will arrive in California to see you and a gaggle of Monopoly Man caricatures and I will smile. I will look past the diamond tip canes, cigars being lit with $100 bills, and monocles, and I will see wounded gazelles.
The next day I will open up a store out of my trunk right next-door to your place of business and sell my water-food-gas; however my goods will be at a significantly lower price. Though my profit margin is smaller then yours, through hard work and determination, my business will grow. I will re-invest in my business by opening up more stores thereby creating economies of scale to further lower my prices for consumers. I will also add more products to my stores achieving economy of scope. Soon my market share will eclipse yours, soon you will be out of business, and soon I will be buying your monocles and diamond-tipped canes at auction for pennies on the dollar. My company will be called Wal-water-food-gas-Mart, paradoxically I will be the most popular and hated retailer in the world.


Now, contrast my bottom up solution to a top down Government solution, scene 2b:

California 2009
President Hillary Clinton sends Attorney General Elliot Spitzer-Reno to California to file and anti-trust lawsuit against a group of price gouging water-food-gas retailers. The government now regulates the price of food, water and gas. Government corruption increases following the golden rule of buying and selling regulations: when buying and selling are regulated, the first things to be bought and sold are the regulators.
The Government, now doing something they have no-clue how to do drive the industry into the ground.

[HOLLiS]

TK, naw by then Kalifornia will adapt the Mexico Immagration Policies and you COULD not, will not operate any business in that AO.

[casey]

Sir, disagree with your assessment, allow me to explain why in what would be scene 2a of your scenario:

California 2009
Following your migration to California and the ensuing disaster that results in the cartel of water-food-gas retailers that you spearhead, I too will head to California. I will fill my car with as many jerry cans of gas, and cases of food and water as I can. I will arrive in California to see you and a gaggle of Monopoly Man caricatures and I will smile. I will look past the diamond tip canes, cigars being lit with $100 bills, and monocles, and I will see wounded gazelles.
The next day I will open up a store out of my trunk right next-door to your place of business and sell my water-food-gas; however my goods will be at a significantly lower price. Though my profit margin is smaller then yours, through hard work and determination, my business will grow. I will re-invest in my business by opening up more stores thereby creating economies of scale to further lower my prices for consumers. I will also add more products to my stores achieving economy of scope. Soon my market share will eclipse yours, soon you will be out of business, and soon I will be buying your monocles and diamond-tipped canes at auction for pennies on the dollar. My company will be called Wal-water-food-gas-Mart, paradoxically I will be the most popular and hated retailer in the world.


Now, contrast my bottom up solution to a top down Government solution, scene 2b:

California 2009
President Hillary Clinton sends Attorney General Elliot Spitzer-Reno to California to file and anti-trust lawsuit against a group of price gouging water-food-gas retailers. The government now regulates the price of food, water and gas. Government corruption increases following the golden rule of buying and selling regulations: when buying and selling are regulated, the first things to be bought and sold are the regulators.
The Government, now doing something they have no-clue how to do drive the industry into the ground.


Well your complete lack of situational awareness has left you in a bit of a pickle. See, you have failed to realize that Razor has many friends of like ilk who have also moved next to RL for the double bar benefits, and who just happen to to think that its not wrong to commit illegal acts/crimes in some cases.

So, when I see your plethora of goods for sale, I simply crack your skull, steal your shit, and eat your puppy, because robbery, aggravated assault, theft, & cruelty to animals are not illegal acts at all when I need stuff and am hungry - I have come to think of these things as my right. You should have no trouble at all getting the hospital to work on you, just tell them your a citizen whos wallet has been stolen but your good for the cost of treatment - they might even work on you for free.

[tk27]

TK, naw by then Kalifornia will adapt the Mexico Immagration Policies and you COULD not, will not operate any business in that AO.

Sir, I know we disagree on the issue, but I am not following you on this last one.

post

Sir, your 1st point is clear, Razor has badass friends. This is already understood, he has QP under his name, therefore he is the man in my book, and has many badass friends. I do not follow the rest of the post.
Eating my puppy, while a delicacy in many nations, does not counter the point I attempted to make about markets being better at regulating prices then government policy.

[12B4S]

Well Damn!!!!!! Razor. When I was in CO., Last October and missed you up in Denver, that snowy Monday, I had no idea you were alllllllll that scary. Whew!!!!! Dodged another bullet. Starting to feel like a cat at my age. Hope to soon be included in your ' badass friends ` thang. :cool:

I have stayed away from posting in this thread cause, I knew if I did, I would say/type as I feel. Besides, TR and others have explained it better.

Check this out:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/05/21/MNGFQIVNAF1.DTL

Damn! These ILLEGALS are suckin' off the LEGAL (NOTE: the word 'LEGAL'...... ok, got it? Taxpayer's tits, like calves.

Don't be dancing in my Countrie's streets waving your frickin flag!!!!!!!!!! Protesting our laws and demanding BENEFITS!!!!!!!!!

WTF!!!!!!!!!!

OK done for a bit.........

[casey]

Sir, I know we disagree on the issue, but I am not following you on this last one.



Sir, your 1st point is clear, Razor has badass friends. This is already understood, he has QP under his name, therefore he is the man in my book, and has many badass friends. I do not follow the rest of the post.
Eating my puppy, while a delicacy in many nations, does not counter the point I attempted to make about markets being better at regulating prices then government policy.


Well, its really a simple line of sight rather than cerebral matter.

You (and your family / pets)are kept free from harm on a daily basis because we have laws, you are kept free from having your house/business ransacked daily because we have laws. So even a simple action of allowing free trade and exchange of goods is governed because laws, on many levels, are accepted and working.

When we start ignoring laws that are "deemed" inconvenient or politically incorrect then where does it end? Don't like the way some laws are written? Change them via the system in place.

They call it a slope because your usually at the top, and can only slide down. Otherwise it would be a hill, you know, like the ones our forefathers had to climb when they arrived here.

[Roguish Lawyer]

LMAO, casey! Eat your puppy. :D

Anyway, I think the anti-immigration people are making a circular argument.

1. Illegal immigration is bad because it's illegal.
2. We need to enforce our immigration laws to stop these illegal acts.

Well, if you ease the restrictions on immigration, it's no longer a problem of illegality, is it? The question is whether to permit immigration or not. Legality has very little to do with it.

[HOLLiS]

LMAO, casey! Eat your puppy. :D

Anyway, I think the anti-immigration people are making a circular argument.

1. Illegal immigration is bad because it's illegal.
2. We need to enforce our immigration laws to stop these illegal acts.

Well, if you ease the restrictions on immigration, it's no longer a problem of illegality, is it? The question is whether to permit immigration or not. Legality has very little to do with it.


Should we not bifurcate the issue. As you pointed out there are at least two issues.

As other pointed out there are much more than two issues. We have people who have circumvented our immigration laws. The issue that has brought this mess up is that.

1) Should people who have circumvented the law in a unlawful manner be allowed to do so with success? Obviously there are sub-issues

2) We do allow immigration, should those laws be reformed? It is not permit or deny at this point.

So far I do not see much discussion on our immigration laws. Most is on people should be rewarded or not be reward for breaking those immigration laws.

Arguments against rewarding them is based on; A) they broke the law, B) negative social impact on the US society. We can divide those issues too.

I am not against LAWFUL immigration, It does seem to me some reform should be looked at.


If you ease restrictions and not just abolish them, there will still be violations. Legality will still remain a issue in certain cases.

On the puppy, a great book, 50 ways to Wok your dog.

[Slantwire]

BTW, if the guy was permitted to immigrate here legally, he would have no fear of going to get licenses, insurance, etc. It is the pointless and futile restrictions on immigration that cause this problem, not the other way around.


Fear? Of what? Getting deported? We don't seem to do that anymore, just catch-and-release for hearings.

Or is it lack of interest? He's doing just fine without following the law, why should he bother?


And you don't think there are U.S. citizens running businesses that don't comply with licensing and insurance requirements? Please.


So, because some US citizens break the law, we shouldn't do anything about other people who also break the law? That's a pretty big logical fallacy, a lawyer should know better.


Anyway, I think the anti-immigration people are making a circular argument.

1. Illegal immigration is bad because it's illegal.
2. We need to enforce our immigration laws to stop these illegal acts.


You're misrepresenting, heavily. First off, it's not "anti-immigration," it's "anti-ILLEGAL-immigration." As several have posted, it's more like:

1. Illegal immigration is bad because it:
a. creates a net financial drain on the US economy
b. causes an indirect erosion of the rule of law (non-immigration laws)
c. establishes large population enclaves whose US loyalties are, at best, divided

2. We need to enforce our immigration laws to stop these illegal acts.

[soljaric]

:lifter Don't wait for it to happen make it happen.I saw this picture of a sign on the cnn web site. It's located on the border between california and mexico. Guess what it means. :D

Go back and read the rules, don't post again until you do so.
You will not be told twice.

Team Sergeant

[Box]

lets just declare Mexico a state..... I'd love to be stationed at the Acapulco annex of Ft Bragg

...or the Cancun urban training center


just think of how much live fire desert training we could do.....

....do you know how much it cost to pay role players in the states, we could use the new "citizens" as role players" they get jobs, we get training...its win win

...we wouldnt have to pick up brass on the range, just hire the locals, they get jobs, we spend less time clearing the range, again its 'win win'

I know there are a lot of political and economic faults with such an idea but just think...TDY to Puerto Vallarta for a JATT conference !!!!

whos with me?

[uboat509]

Anyway, I think the anti-immigration people are making a circular argument.

1. Illegal immigration is bad because it's illegal.
2. We need to enforce our immigration laws to stop these illegal acts.

Well, if you ease the restrictions on immigration, it's no longer a problem of illegality, is it? The question is whether to permit immigration or not. Legality has very little to do with it.

Are you not reading what is being posted here? Who here said that they were anti-immigration? Anti-immigration and anti-illegal immigration are not synonamous. I would even go so far as to say that most of us are in favor of some sort of guest worker program but, and this is the important part, the line for these guest worker visas forms on the OTHER SIDE of the border.
In any case this guest worker program will only aliveate the problem slightly. At the heart of the problem is the simple fact illegal labor is cheap labor. With illegal labor you don't have hassles with minimum wage laws, or pension programs or medical benifits or even OSHA regs. Easing restrictions does not fix that problem in fact it exacerbates the problem. It floods the market with more legal workers but the employers who are hiring illegals now will still be looking for that same cheap illegal labor.

SFC W

[jfhiller]

According to this article, 10% of Mexico's official population is living in the US.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/05/21/MNGFQIVNAF1.DTL

[sf11b_p]

Anyway, I think the anti-immigration people are making a circular argument.

1. Illegal immigration is bad because it's illegal.
2. We need to enforce our immigration laws to stop these illegal acts.

Well, if you ease the restrictions on immigration, it's no longer a problem of illegality, is it? The question is whether to permit immigration or not. Legality has very little to do with it.

The media may make that seem so, but making an assumption of peoples thinking based on the media could be a mistake.

Immigration is already possible and legal, millions have done it successfully. What is not legal is an open border where individuals and groups cross back and forth unchecked or enter and disappear off the radar.

Illegal entry is undesirable for a number of reasons but the base is that the act itself is against the law. The things done to facilitate or as part of illegal entry are against the law, smuggling, forged or stolen documents, in certain cases trespass, theft, home invasion, and carrying drugs or transporting people abducted for prostitution or labor. The things it draws others into doing is illegal, harboring, paying under the table for services or labor, tax evasion.

Yes, laws should be enforced since laws without enforcement are suggestions. The reasoning no harm, the rules should be eased to accommodate the lawbreaker is as ridiculous as suggesting you would allow a group of people you know nothing about to squat on your land and allow free use of your kitchen and bathroom and limited use of your personal credit card for health care and food.

Why should restrictions or laws of immigration be eased, they’re likely no harder and restrictive and likely less so than other countries already. Certainly there is more reason at this time to know the types of people entering the country. The majority of immigrants seem to be able to comply with the laws in place why not all.

Certainly the laws and rules in place should be enforced if anything with greater diligence since lax or lack of enforcement has shown it’s result in the events of 9/11 and the crime reports along the borders and in communities wherever illegals travel.

I don’t believe illegal entrants numbering 6-7 million have a great beneficial impact on the national economy or services. I do believe that 10-11 million have a noticeable detrimental effect on social and healthcare services. I don’t believe 10-11 million people are all from the southern border. In fact it would probably be closer to the truth that less than half of that number crossing the southern border are citizens of Mexico, and a smaller percentage citizens of other countries. I don't believe they or the 6-7 million working are all good and honest people wanting to become good and permanent citizens. I believe these things because I don’t see documentation or facts that prove otherwise.

I don’t believe that just because a number of 10-11 million people are nomadically traveling back and forth across a border, or even becoming long term residents, they should be given special privilege to work or become citizens or dual citizens. Not when 30 million and more presently, and millions more before, have, or are successfully becoming, legal workers students and citizens.

I also believe that employers should be fined for hiring illegals and at least forced to account for whatever discrepancy in pay, taxes, and benefits existed. I believe that communities that become sanctuaries should not receive federal funds to cover the costs of becoming sanctuaries.

So yes there are more reasons than circular argument just as there are more reasons to enforce laws against pedophilia, illegal drug use, and drunk driving than circular argument.

[Roguish Lawyer]

lets just declare Mexico a state..... I'd love to be stationed at the Acapulco annex of Ft Bragg

...or the Cancun urban training center


just think of how much live fire desert training we could do.....

....do you know how much it cost to pay role players in the states, we could use the new "citizens" as role players" they get jobs, we get training...its win win

...we wouldnt have to pick up brass on the range, just hire the locals, they get jobs, we spend less time clearing the range, again its 'win win'

I know there are a lot of political and economic faults with such an idea but just think...TDY to Puerto Vallarta for a JATT conference !!!!

whos with me?

I am! LOL

[Roguish Lawyer]

Somebody please explain with particularity how a Mexican national can immigrate here legally without having special skills or a refugee case. Go ahead, I'd like to see it. The suggestion that Mexicans can immigrate here legally is completely FALSE.

[uboat509]

If they have skills that we want they can immigrate here just like anyone else but being born in a poor country does not automatically confer the right to immigrate to this country.

SFC W

[Air.177]

Wow.

Something has just dawned on me. An epiphany as it were. You know folks, right here in this very forum at this instant, we have our very own microcosm of the immigration/illegal immigration predicament. The idea here at PS.com is pretty straight forward:
Share ideas, knowledge, and opinions as you please, all we ask is that you be civil, respectful and well versed in the subjects of which you speak. That and fill out your profile/make an introduction post.

and while there are many people who go through that process on a regular basis to enter our discussions, our admins and mods are constantly dealing with those who choose not to abide by these simple ideas.

so lets have examples:

All of the QPs in this case, but especially the Admins represent the natives of PS.comland. (NDD, TR, TS, Peregrino, AM, etc.)

The Non-QP mods and other Non-QP Members are the LEGAL immigrants who followed the correct protocols to get where they are on the QP's Board and within the QP's Rules (RL, Kyobanim, Smokin joe, Myself, etc.)

Anyone with the User title FTFSI or Banned User has decided to just come right in and start pontificating on subjects of which they have no knowledge, or has made the decision not to follow the simple rules put forth in the Stickies and all to frequently in other discussions. They have Blank Profiles, and nary a post in the Intro thread. These are the ILLEGAL immigrants that made their presence known and that the system has caught.

There are plenty of names on the member list with incomplete profiles and no intro post to their credit. These are the ILLEGAL immigrants who are just laying low. Sure, they may not have followed the simple rules for immigration (as it were) but they are just luring along not really hurting anything or anyone and the Admins just don't have time to go through the huge member list to root them all out.

This really doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand, but it seems; to me at least that we are arguing about nothing and not really getting anywhere. That and this is getting to be a long ass thread and I hadn't posted in it yet.:D ;)

.
To Paraphrase Hunter S Thompson, She is a strange prototype never intended for Mass Production.:munchin

That is all,
Back to your circular discussion.

Good times,
Blake

[Roguish Lawyer]

This really doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand

Well, Blake. At least you got that part right! :D

[Razor]

Ok, let's approach this from another angle. RL, please explain in detail why we should open our borders to anyone and everyone that can physically get here (as that seems to be what you're advocating)?

[jasonglh]

Somebody please explain with particularity how a Mexican national can immigrate here legally without having special skills or a refugee case. Go ahead, I'd like to see it. The suggestion that Mexicans can immigrate here legally is completely FALSE.


Why would we need large numbers of unskilled workers in the USA? Most of the factories that closed in my neck of the woods relocated to Mexico so why are the workers coming here?

I dont know much about immigration law but it seems very complicated and that you would need the services of an immigration lawyer. Even then I have read it takes around 3 years for an RN to come here from abroad. That is after they fill out the paperwork, locate an employer, challenge the NCLEX-RN boards, and prove proficiency of the ENGLISH language. Even then there are annual quotas of how many RN's they will allow in the country. Would it be fair for Americans such as myself to spend 3-4 years and thousands of dollars to get my RN degree just so the govt could open the floodgates for RN's to come here? That would result in an overpopulation of RN's and driving down of the hourly wages for RN's.

Now if the shoe were on the other foot and we are talking about lawyers streaming over the border instead of unskilled labor how would that be? If there was no quota on the number of lawyers allowed to come in and set up shop the same thing would happen. The hourly rate for lawyers would go down. How would an American born and educated lawyer pay off his student loan if his hourly rate was driven down to $20 an hour? I bet it would take a really long time.

[Detonics]

LMAO, casey! Eat your puppy. :D

Anyway, I think the anti-immigration people are making a circular argument.

1. Illegal immigration is bad because it's illegal.
2. We need to enforce our immigration laws to stop these illegal acts.

Well, if you ease the restrictions on immigration, it's no longer a problem of illegality, is it? The question is whether to permit immigration or not. Legality has very little to do with it.

You've got a point! If we ease the laws on dope, dui, sex assault and pedophilia then the problem just kinda vanishes!

The United States allows more legal immigration than all of the other countries combined according to the statistics I've read, so there's really no question about whether or not to permit "it".

Legality has everything to do with "it". Health screening, criminal history screening, sponsorship, educational level and going through the study programs in order to understand the precious gift that is American citizenship has everything to do with "it". Legal immigrants are issued actual identification and are not subject to the manipulation and coercion by employers that illegal aliens face. Legal immigrants are issued actual identification and are therefore responsible for repayment of public and private debts.

I'm thinking just by the level of silliness of some of these statements that this whole thread is just some type of attempt at gathering viewpoints. This is prolly just a part of some background in a report for continuing education credits...... right? RIGHT?

[Roguish Lawyer]

Ok, let's approach this from another angle. RL, please explain in detail why we should open our borders to anyone and everyone that can physically get here (as that seems to be what you're advocating)?

That is not what I am advocating.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Now if the shoe were on the other foot and we are talking about lawyers streaming over the border instead of unskilled labor how would that be? If there was no quota on the number of lawyers allowed to come in and set up shop the same thing would happen. The hourly rate for lawyers would go down. How would an American born and educated lawyer pay off his student loan if his hourly rate was driven down to $20 an hour? I bet it would take a really long time.

Funny, jason, my law review note was on why we should eliminate bar exams and allow anyone to practice law. The purpose was to reduce the cost of legal services for the poor. :munchin

[Razor]

That is not what I am advocating.

Then I guess I'm misunderstanding your position. Could you please clarify exactly what it is you want to change about current US immigration policy?


Or are you just stirring the pot because you're bored?

[Kyobanim]

Or are you just stirring the pot because you're bored? BIngo! He wants to see who turns blue in the face first.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Then I guess I'm misunderstanding your position. Could you please clarify exactly what it is you want to change about current US immigration policy?


Or are you just stirring the pot because you're bored?

I am not the proponent here, but I would significantly relax immigration restrictions by permitting more people to immigrate here legally and/or be permitted to come here to work.

At the same time, I would significantly reduce the benefits available to both immigrants and citizens, while simultaneously increases tax benefits available for monetary and in-kind charitable donations.

[jasonglh]

RL as I understand it each year there are RN quota slots that go unused for whatever reason. Just a few years ago in response to the nursing shortage President Bush allowed those expiring slots to be put in a bank so there are now 50k slots available. The backlog it seems is in the application process itself not people wanting to come here legally to work under the guidlines of my previous post. Meanwhile there is a waiting list at most Nursing programs so bad that people from CA came here to attend my program.


So then the problem to me does not seem to be a numbers issue but the paperwork nightmare that has been created by the paper pushers.

Do you think the quota system serves a purpose here?

[incommin]

I don't hate illegals. I don't like illegals who commit violent crimes and then run back to Mexico where we can not arrest them. I don't like illegals who agree to carry drugs in return for assistacne in getting across our border. And about 30% of the people in our jail (a 700 bed facility) "are good people who did something wrong/illegal to help their families". The motive may be good but the act is illegal and until laws are changed a crime is a crime.

[jfhiller]

I am not the proponent here, but I would significantly relax immigration restrictions by permitting more people to immigrate here legally and/or be permitted to come here to work.

At the same time, I would significantly reduce the benefits available to both immigrants and citizens, while simultaneously increases tax benefits available for monetary and in-kind charitable donations.

That sounds to me like a sensible free market, limited government approach. The sticking point is how to correct the existing results of a shameful border/immigration management system that has been neglected for decades; i.e. how to deal with the millions of illegal immigrants already here.

[tk27]

That sounds to me like a sensible free market, limited government approach. The sticking point is how to correct the existing results of a shameful border/immigration management system that has been neglected for decades; i.e. how to deal with the millions of illegal immigrants already here.

Exactly the crux of the problem.

- Relaxing immigration restrictions is a good idea, but I think is only effective combined with reforming current labor laws. Making more people "legal" only increases their labor price, the demand is for people not subject to minimum wage legislation.

- Increasing spending on border security will not solve the problem, only make it worse. The tax increases to fund it hurts us economicaly. Imposing barriers to marginaly stem the flow does nothing decrease demand and the margin of profit would only be increased for the organized crime elements that operate on the fringe of the issue.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Here is something to discuss:

Currently, if you are born here, you are a citizen.

Who would like to change that so that you are not a citizen by birth here if both (or one?) of your parents immigrated here illegally?

Benefit: Would help to address some of the things people are complaining about in this thread.

Cost: Significant administrative costs, not only for immigrants, but for citizens and their children.

:munchin

[jfhiller]

Here is something to discuss:

Currently, if you are born here, you are a citizen.

Who would like to change that so that you are not a citizen by birth here if both (or one?) of your parents immigrated here illegally?

Benefit: Would help to address some of the things people are complaining about in this thread.

Cost: Significant administrative costs, not only for immigrants, but for citizens and their children.


IMHO, the chances of that happening are close to nil. I don't think it would survive the Constitutional amendment process. On a strictly hypothetical basis, it probably would be a good idea, but I don't think the benefit would be great enough for me to be an ardent supporter. Other measures like increased border enforcement, sensible "guest worker" program (I would NOT include a path to citizenship for illegals), better SSN tracking system/enforcement, etc. would be more politically feasible and more effective in addressing the issue. Just my opinion.

[Doc Diego]

In California:

Lousy Schools: Throwing money at it doesn't help, already doing that. Could a large illegal spanish speaking population be the problem?
ER's closing- Lots of non-paying illegals and their tons of kids. We have nationalized health care, but you have to be illegal to get it. They get upset if the nurses and doctors can't speak spanish!
Lots of Entitlements- The scams and ripoffs are well known in Mexico.When it comes to paperwork, always list "unemployed" the best way to get the taxpayer supported freebies.
Cheap labor, hardly. Housekeepers start at $20 an hour cash! Cezar Chavez did something with farm labor, I bet it's a lot more than $2.
California gets more socialist everyday, maybe the illegals will take it back if the Dems don't give it away first.

Thats why I moved to Nevada!:D

[Kyobanim]

Few Protections for Migrants to Mexico

By MARK STEVENSON
Associated Press Writer

TULTITLAN, Mexico (AP) -- Considered felons by the government, these migrants fear detention, rape and robbery. Police and soldiers hunt them down at railroads, bus stations and fleabag hotels. Sometimes they are deported; more often officers simply take their money.

While migrants in the United States have held huge demonstrations in recent weeks, the hundreds of thousands of undocumented Central Americans in Mexico suffer mostly in silence.

And though Mexico demands humane treatment for its citizens who migrate to the U.S., regardless of their legal status, Mexico provides few protections for migrants on its own soil. The issue simply isn't on the country's political agenda, perhaps because migrants make up only 0.5 percent of the population, or about 500,000 people - compared with 12 percent in the United States.

The level of brutality Central American migrants face in Mexico was apparent Monday, when police conducting a raid for undocumented migrants near a rail yard outside Mexico City shot to death a local man, apparently because his dark skin and work clothes made officers think he was a migrant.

Virginia Sanchez, who lives near the railroad tracks that carry Central Americans north to the U.S. border, said such shootings in Tultitlan are common.

"At night, you hear the gunshots, and it's the judiciales (state police) chasing the migrants," she said. "It's not fair to kill these people. It's not fair in the United States and it's not fair here."

Undocumented Central American migrants complain much more about how they are treated by Mexican officials than about authorities on the U.S. side of the border, where migrants may resent being caught but often praise the professionalism of the agents scouring the desert for their trail.

"If you're carrying any money, they take it from you - federal, state, local police, all of them," said Carlos Lopez, a 28-year-old farmhand from Guatemala crouching in a field near the tracks in Tultitlan, waiting to climb onto a northbound freight train.

Lopez said he had been shaken down repeatedly in 15 days of traveling through Mexico.

"The soldiers were there as soon as we crossed the river," he said. "They said, 'You can't cross ... unless you leave something for us.'"

Jose Ramos, 18, of El Salvador, said the extortion occurs at every stop in Mexico, until migrants are left penniless and begging for food.

"If you're on a bus, they pull you off and search your pockets and if you have any money, they keep it and say, 'Get out of here,'" Ramos said.

Maria Elena Gonzalez, who lives near the tracks, said female migrants often complain about abusive police.

"They force them to strip, supposedly to search them, but the purpose is to sexually abuse them," she said.

Others said they had seen migrants beaten to death by police, their bodies left near the railway tracks to make it look as if they had fallen from a train.

The Mexican government acknowledges that many federal, state and local officials are on the take from the people-smugglers who move hundreds of thousands of Central Americans north, and that migrants are particularly vulnerable to abuse by corrupt police.

The National Human Rights Commission, a government-funded agency, documented the abuses south of the U.S. border in a December report.

"One of the saddest national failings on immigration issues is the contradiction in demanding that the North respect migrants' rights, which we are not capable of guaranteeing in the South," commission president Jose Luis Soberanes said.

In the United States, mostly Mexican immigrants have staged rallies pressuring Congress to grant amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants rather than making them felons and deputizing police to deport them. The Mexican government has spoken out in support of the immigrants' cause.

While Interior Secretary Carlos Abascal said Monday that "Mexico is a country with a clear, defined and generous policy toward migrants," the nation of 105 million has legalized only 15,000 immigrants in the past five years, and many undocumented migrants who are detained are deported.

Although Mexico objects to U.S. authorities detaining Mexican immigrants, police and soldiers usually cause the most trouble for migrants in Mexico, even though they aren't technically authorized to enforce immigration laws.

And while Mexicans denounce the criminalization of their citizens living without papers in the United States, Mexican law classifies undocumented immigration as a felony punishable by up to two years in prison, although deportation is more common.

The number of undocumented migrants detained in Mexico almost doubled from 138,061 in 2002 to 240,269 last year. Forty-two percent were Guatemalan, 33 percent Honduran and most of the rest Salvadoran.

Like the United States, Mexico is becoming reliant on immigrant labor. Last year, then-director of Mexico's immigration agency, Magdalena Carral, said an increasing number of Central Americans were staying in Mexico, rather than just passing through on their way to the U.S.

She said sectors of the Mexican economy facing labor shortages often use undocumented workers because the legal process for work visas is inefficient.


Google these words for more: central american mexican immigration policies

[jfhiller]

No question, Mexico is rife with corruption. That's a significant contributor to their less than stellar economy, which drives so many people north. Clearly, we would not want to model any of our systems after their example. The irony seems to be lost on el presidente fox when he criticizes us for our "harsh" ideas for border enforcement and plans for taking care of "his people". While it's annoying to be lectured with such hypocrisy, I think we should completely disregard the practices of Mexican authorities (whichever direction it would tend to push us) when crafting our own approach to immigration/immigrants - both legal and illegal.

Sorry if this isn't entirely cogent. I've had a couple of mint juleps. :o I do miss the south.

[jasonglh]

Like the United States, Mexico is becoming reliant on immigrant labor.

What? I thought they were coming here because there was no work in Mexico? Guess maybe NAFTA isnt working out so well.

ER's closing- Lots of non-paying illegals and their tons of kids. We have nationalized health care, but you have to be illegal to get it. They get upset if the nurses and doctors can't speak spanish!


I can vouch for that. They act like we should know spanish for some reason. Luckily the few that I have had as patients all had a small child with them that acted as the interpreter. The fact they list no insurance and no social security number on their admission paperwork shouldnt be a big red flag to anyone that they may not be here legally. :rolleyes: I have heard that in CA its against the law to ask if they are here legally can anyone vouch for that?

[Doc Diego]

You heard right. It is against the law to ask residency status of anyone seeking medical attention in California. :mad: