View Full Version : Feet - You Can't Get Anywhere Without Them!
The Reaper
01-23-2004, 20:59
Feet and Boots
I am not a podiatrist, but based on my discussions with Docs and many years of experience in moving out, I will offer the following for you aspiring SF wannabes.
Your feet serve to support you and your load, absorb shock, and to provide balance and forward motion.
Your feet need to be tough, yet protected, and cared for. This is achieved by rucking in well broken in, but not broken down boots, by monitoring your feet's status, and knowing how to care for them when problems arise.
Get at least two, if not three pairs of leather combat or jungle boots to train in. Break in techniques vary, but use plenty of softening agents like saddle soap and Neat's Foot oil. Rotate the different pairs of boots from day to day. Ensure that you do not injure your feet needlessly breaking in the new boots. Make sure that the boots are comfortable, getting the proper insoles or orthotics as required. Ideally, the boots you bring to SFAS should have between 50% and 75% of their service life remaining. People arrive every class with new boots, improperly fitted boots, and just plain worn out boots. These people are usually limping around the compound by the end of the first week, if they are still there at all.
Sizing is also critical. Try on new boots with the socks you intend to wear. Get them slightly large, as most people's feet will swell a half size or so on extended walks. I know guys who wore their boots without socks in the field. They were a rarity, and I never saw any of them move out hard and fast.
Socks are just as important. Bring new, clean, correctly sized socks, and as many pairs as are permitted. They will help absorb some of the punishment, and thin, ratty, old socks do little to assist in protecting your feet. HSLD, Gore-Tex, sock liners, or aftermarket socks are not permitted.
As you break in your boots, you will notice painful contact points and "hot spots" forming. STOP and treat them as soon as the pain becomes noticeable. While rucking, you should plan on stopping for a break for five minutes per hour or so. Do not waste that time sitting on your rucks. Take the ruck off, take your boots off, and examine your feet. If they look good, let them air out for a minute or so, powder them, and consider changing socks. You will ruck longer, faster, and more often if you have a workout partner. Foot care is also improved by having your partner check your feet as well.
NEVER ruck with wet or recently wet feet. As many members can attest, even well conditioned feet are vulnerable and soft after a good soaking (like swimming). Do not try to combine training activities, and carry a spare pair of boots and several pairs of socks to swap into should the ones you are wearing become soaked.
Any hot spot areas starting to redden should be closely monitored, and moleskin applied as needed. See an infantryman or medic for advice. An experienced SF Medic is probably the best source for advice. Some people also use Vaseline or deodorant on their feet to protect them. Once you have started to blister, you will be losing training time waiting for them to heal so that you can resume training. Do not let them get that bad. You do
not want to learn what a Doc can use Tincture of Benzoin and a syringe for.
Start short, slow, and light, and work up to long, fast, and heavy. If you screw up, and are say, 10 miles into your 20 mile walk when you notice significant blistering, I hope you have a cell phone and a buddy with a car. You will screw up your feet for at least 2-3 weeks by walking back.
Areas that get a lot of friction and contact will start to harden and
calluses will form over time. This is good. The dead material of the callus will absorb the friction and impact that would hurt the skin on your feet. Most people find that issue boots will cause calluses to form on the balls of the feet, the heel, under the toes, and on the outside of the boot, depending on the contact points of the boots on your feet.
As you walk, the boots and your feet will develop a symbiotic relationship. The boots will soften and begin to flex where required, and the contact points on your feet will toughen up. Eventually, your boots will be almost as comfortable as a pair of slippers, and your feet will be tough as nails. You will not need a pedicure, though you will need to keep your nails trimmed properly to prevent injury or damage.
In summary, thoroughly break in several pair of properly fitted new boots, get some new socks and foot care products, and condition your feet well prior to coming to SFAS. The course is difficult enough without either being the one guy (minimum) every hut has sniveling about his feet, or the one gutting it out, but dragging ass at the back of the group.
Good luck, and get moving.
boat guy
03-11-2005, 09:37
TR Sir,
Thank you for your invaluable insight. I have posted a link here to a book which expounds upon proper foot care. I was suprised not to have found this book posted elsewhere when searching by author or title. This came recommded to me by a recent SFAS selectee. Called "Fixing Your Feet," the book is written by an adventure racer and details recommendations for solutions to just about any foot related problem from ingrown toe nails and blisters to shin splints and knee pain. I believe this to be an excellent resource for any soldier especially those with SF aspirations. It is an outstanding read with thorough research and information. Perhaps better posted in book reviews, I thought this fitting for those headed to Ph 1.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/089997354X/qid=1110554658/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-5324380-8824856
NousDefionsDoc
03-11-2005, 09:41
Looks good Boat Guy. Thanks for the tip.
72_Wilderness
03-14-2005, 00:44
This past summer when I went backpacking with my Boy Scout Troop I was instructed to remain standing if the "rest" was going to be a short rest. For us short rest where 5 minutes. I was insturucted to take my pack off and take my boots off when we took long rest. Long rest where 20 but no more than 30 minutes. It worked fairly good. Does anyone know of anything better or different?
Just the fact of knowing you where taking your pack and boots off, almost always made me feel like I had more energy. :D
The Reaper
03-14-2005, 08:31
This past summer when I went backpacking with my Boy Scout Troop I was instructed to remain standing if the "rest" was going to be a short rest. For us short rest where 5 minutes. I was insturucted to take my pack off and take my boots off when we took long rest. Long rest where 20 but no more than 30 minutes. It worked fairly good. Does anyone know of anything better or different?
Just the fact of knowing you where taking your pack and boots off, almost always made me feel like I had more energy. :D
Sounds like BS to me.
Situation permitting, we always took a knee at any stop, and would take the ruck off if down for more than a minute or two. Rest breaks were 10 minutes or so, every hour. 20-30 minutes were not rest stops, they were for meals or to do something that took that long. If tactical, I never had both boots off at the same time unless I was swimming. Maybe in an admin situation for foot checks.
TR
Thats good medicine, the information will be a big help. Sunday im leaving on job to survey pipeline, we will be coving about 15-25 miles a day which should be good conditioning.
Warrior-Mentor
07-22-2005, 14:10
FYI. Here's another resource on foot care...
"How do I take Care of My Feet?" is the title of Chapter 7 in GET SELECTED FOR SPECIAL FORCES, which covers:
> Pre-Road March Foot Care Drill
> During Movement Foot Care
> After Movement Foot Care
> Blister Prevention
> The 2 causes of blisters and how to minimize or eliminate each
> Blister Treatment
> 3 methods of lacing your boots with pros and cons for each
> Reducing the chances of Stress Fractures
> Preventing Toe Nail loss.
> Reducing Chances of twisted ankles
Chapter 8 is the "Anatomy of a Boot", which covers:
> Why it helps you to know the Anatomy of a boot
> The basic construction of a Boot
> 4 different types of soles and the pros and cons of each
> Proper Boot Sizing
> How to break in an new pair of boots
> Boot inspections, care and field expedient repairs
Additional details are available at www.warrior-mentor.com
Cast or tab,
JM
BMT (RIP)
07-23-2005, 06:02
Damn my ole dogs must of been tough!! I' can't recall any problems with my feet or boots. My first issue boot were the boots with the buckles around the calf's,rough leather bottoms. The only problem with then were they were a BITCH to shine.
I always found boots laced tight,clean socks worked for me.
BMT
FOG
72_Wilderness
07-23-2005, 15:13
Sounds like BS to me.
TR what part(s) are you referring to? By BS is it correct to assume that you mean Bull Shit, not Boy Scouts?
72W
The Reaper
07-23-2005, 17:03
TR what part(s) are you referring to? By BS is it correct to assume that you mean Bull Shit, not Boy Scouts?
72W
Remain standing? Hard to do foot checks like that, isn't it? Unless I am very well broken in, I like to check feet every 60-90 minutes.
BTW, the word you are looking for is were, not where.
TR
72_Wilderness
07-24-2005, 00:59
“Remain standing? Hard to do foot checks like that, isn't it? Unless I am very well broken in, I like to check feet every 60-90 minutes.”
No doubt it would have been hard to do foot checks while standing, on the trip we did not do foot checks. Everyone was instructed on what a hot spot was and how to deal with it. When some one had a foot problem or problem with their gear they would either call out to take a rest to fix the problem or they would wait until the next rest to fix the problem. And most of the crewmembers did the latter.
I am not saying what we did was correct or proper but we made it to the end of the trail. After thinking about what our crew did and what you are suggesting it is obvious that your way makes the most sense for people that are in excellent physical shape and trained well. The Boy Scouts use the method I described to deal with the different levels of physical shape and training level of each person on a crew.
Thank you for the advice that all of you have given. The Boy Scouts are good but is there really a question of whose advice I am going to follow.
“BTW, the word you are looking for is were, not where.”
Thank you for the correction. I have no excuse but I am trying to prevent the problem by writing replies in Microsoft Word and then copying them over.
72W
The Reaper
07-24-2005, 07:46
Sure.
Why would Boy Scouts need to check their feet for blisters as often as SF soldiers? People who are less conditioned need more rest breaks and foot checks, not fewer. Waiting till the next scheduled rest break to check out a hot spot will frequently turn them into blisters.
I believe I will quit wasting my time trying to help you and will let you use your vast Boy Scout experience to answer your own questions from now on.
Drive on, kid.
TR
72_Wilderness
07-24-2005, 15:43
“Why would Boy Scouts need to check their feet for blisters as often as SF soldiers? People who are less conditioned need more rest breaks and foot checks, not fewer.”
I agree with you, we should have checked each other’s feet during rest. There isn’t anything that I can do now to change the past all I can do is remember all this good information that you and others have provide and follow it in the future.
“Waiting till the next scheduled rest break to check out a hot spot will frequently turn them into blisters.”
I only did that once. Took care of the small blister when we rested. The next day when I felt a hot spot I did not hesitate to call for a break to take care of the problem.
“I believe I will quit wasting my time trying to help you and will let you use your vast Boy Scout experience to answer your own questions from now on.”
I believe the comment I made, “The Boy Scouts are good but is there really a question of whose advice I am going to follow.” may have been misunderstood. When it comes between who has the best advice, I am going to agree with QP’s before I agree with the Boy Scouts. I was just offering the information of my backpack trip to give others some ideas, obviously what we did was not the best way to do things. I believe it was a mistake to compare what the Boy Scouts do and what QP’s do.
My apologies for the confusion and misunderstanding that I created.
72W
Regarding socks in general, when in the service i bought some good Thorlos socks, particularly for a 25 mile movement to be made in the course we were in.
Well, they were of great use sitting at home and not on the base, the date for the march was earlier than expected and all i had were some normal thickness socks, borrowed a pair of thicker socks from a platoon mate who was not coming with us due to a fractured leg.
Oh, and the boots were Nokia rubber boots.
Did develope hot spots during the march, taped them with the items i had with me and they did not bother significantly, only at the last 4 miles which we speed marched/ran, i started to notice them more.
Feet and Boots
I am not a podiatrist, but based on my discussions with Docs and many years of experience in moving out, I will offer the following for you aspiring SF wannabes.
Your feet serve to support you and your load, absorb shock, and to provide balance and forward motion.
Your feet need to be tough, yet protected, and cared for. This is achieved by rucking in well broken in, but not broken down boots, by monitoring your feet's status, and knowing how to care for them when problems arise.
Get at least two, if not three pairs of leather combat or jungle boots to train in. Break in techniques vary, but use plenty of softening agents like saddle soap and Neat's Foot oil. Rotate the different pairs of boots from day to day. Ensure that you do not injure your feet needlessly breaking in the new boots. Make sure that the boots are comfortable, getting the proper insoles or orthotics as required. Ideally, the boots you bring to SFAS should have between 50% and 75% of their service life remaining. People arrive every class with new boots, improperly fitted boots, and just plain worn out boots. These people are usually limping around the compound by the end of the first week, if they are still there at all.
Sizing is also critical. Try on new boots with the socks you intend to wear. Get them slightly large, as most people's feet will swell a half size or so on extended walks. I know guys who wore their boots without socks in the field. They were a rarity, and I never saw any of them move out hard and fast.
Socks are just as important. Bring new, clean, correctly sized socks, and as many pairs as are permitted. They will help absorb some of the punishment, and thin, ratty, old socks do little to assist in protecting your feet. HSLD, Gore-Tex, sock liners, or aftermarket socks are not permitted.
As you break in your boots, you will notice painful contact points and "hot spots" forming. STOP and treat them as soon as the pain becomes noticeable. While rucking, you should plan on stopping for a break for five minutes per hour or so. Do not waste that time sitting on your rucks. Take the ruck off, take your boots off, and examine your feet. If they look good, let them air out for a minute or so, powder them, and consider changing socks. You will ruck longer, faster, and more often if you have a workout partner. Foot care is also improved by having your partner check your feet as well.
NEVER ruck with wet or recently wet feet. As many members can attest, even well conditioned feet are vulnerable and soft after a good soaking (like swimming). Do not try to combine training activities, and carry a spare pair of boots and several pairs of socks to swap into should the ones you are wearing become soaked.
Any hot spot areas starting to redden should be closely monitored, and moleskin applied as needed. See an infantryman or medic for advice. An experienced SF Medic is probably the best source for advice. Some people also use Vaseline or deodorant on their feet to protect them. Once you have started to blister, you will be losing training time waiting for them to heal so that you can resume training. Do not let them get that bad. You do
not want to learn what a Doc can use Tincture of Benzoin and a syringe for.
Start short, slow, and light, and work up to long, fast, and heavy. If you screw up, and are say, 10 miles into your 20 mile walk when you notice significant blistering, I hope you have a cell phone and a buddy with a car. You will screw up your feet for at least 2-3 weeks by walking back.
Areas that get a lot of friction and contact will start to harden and
calluses will form over time. This is good. The dead material of the callus will absorb the friction and impact that would hurt the skin on your feet. Most people find that issue boots will cause calluses to form on the balls of the feet, the heel, under the toes, and on the outside of the boot, depending on the contact points of the boots on your feet.
As you walk, the boots and your feet will develop a symbiotic relationship. The boots will soften and begin to flex where required, and the contact points on your feet will toughen up. Eventually, your boots will be almost as comfortable as a pair of slippers, and your feet will be tough as nails. You will not need a pedicure, though you will need to keep your nails trimmed properly to prevent injury or damage.
In summary, thoroughly break in several pair of properly fitted new boots, get some new socks and foot care products, and condition your feet well prior to coming to SFAS. The course is difficult enough without either being the one guy (minimum) every hut has sniveling about his feet, or the one gutting it out, but dragging ass at the back of the group.
Good luck, and get moving.
^^^I'd just like to say that The Reaper's advice is about the best
anybody could recieve, anywhere, period. Read, and re-read his post
about 1,000 times. Then read it some more.
I always had tough feet and never went on sick call for blisters, ever.
Too many guys are lazy and expect some aftermarket socks or "high speed"
whatever to take the place of walking in boots with a heavy ALICE pack on.
It won't.
My secret??? LOTS of miles rucking up and down hills with a 80-100lb ruck
and wearing well-broken in jungle boots with clean, serviceable, issue
socks.
I've seen guys with feet that looked like hamburger meat, because they
were lazy and didn't think it would get that bad. As The Reaper says, you
will be lucky if you last a week with weak, blistered feet. Hope you like intense
pain too, cause you'll get a boatload!!!
Rucking with blisters is bad enough, but when the medic has to scrub
the wound to prevent infection??? Priceless!!!! Don't learn the "hard way."
Prepare!!!
Broken-in boots, new, issue socks, and hard work is the only way to get
tough feet. There is never a substitute for hard work and thick callouses.
:lifter
Big Chief
07-27-2005, 06:40
Prior to the "Get Selected" book coming out (Outstanding job sir and MSG), I did my own research on blisters for about 2 and a half weeks. One source talked about the only solution he found for blisters was to put duct tape on his feet where a hot spot would build up. I questioned some medical personel about this and they said it was not advisable as the feet didn't breathe. I figured they never humped a ruck except in Basic, so I would take it with a grain of salt.
Prior to my ankle injury, I was rucking 2-3 times a week with minimum distances of 5 miles and go out to 14+. :lifter My feet eventually toughened (now softened up like daisies), :boohoo but I tried the duct tape method when I hit hot spots and blisters. Duct tape worked like a charm and allowed me to move out like a herd of buffalo for miles and miles.
I noticed in "Get Selected" duct tape was not even mentioned. Any advice and insight is always appreciated.
SS
The Reaper
07-27-2005, 07:46
I would avoid 100mph/duct tape.
Search this site for details, but suffice it to say, it offers no padding, contains adhesive compounds not certified for human medical use, and will be a mother to get off without ripping the blister apart.
The only good application I have seen for it on boots is to emergency repair a set that have disintegrated during a movement.
Use it at your own risk, there is plenty of moleskin available.
TR
I posted a question regarding Duct tape/100mph tape in this thread a few days ago.
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=87747#post87747
In the book Fixing your Feet, they discuss using duct tape as a preventative medicine. Personally, I've had great success with it.
Sometimes, in the dead of the night, I wonder if the folks at selection don't want you to use duct tape because it works too well. . . nah, that couldn't be it. :D
That said, TR's comment is well founded. After having worked in ship yards, trust me when I say chemicals can be scary and transdermal absorbtion is a real thing. My skin doesn't react to the adhesives in duct tape (so far as I can tell. . . perhaps future children will grow a third arm?), but then again, I've never used bonafide 100 mph tape, which I understand has some form of epoxy-type adhesive.
Books
Warrior-Mentor
07-28-2005, 16:33
I don't recommend 100 mph tape for blisters.
It's good stuff if you're in a bind for wrapping an ankle after a twist...especially if you need a field expedient method and don't have regular supplies to tape it, etc. Wrap the 100mph tape over the boot...not the foot or ankle itself.
It's a good idea to learn HOW TO wrap an ankle. Watch someone whose trained how to do it correctly. Doing it wrong can also cause problems...especially if you cut off the blood flow.
In addition to the adhesive, the other problem with it is that it doesn't have any give. This prevents your foot from expanding & contracting as it normally does while walking...which can create bigger problems.
My $.02.
The Reaper
07-28-2005, 17:22
I posted a question regarding Duct tape/100mph tape in this thread a few days ago.
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=87747#post87747
In the book Fixing your Feet, they discuss using duct tape as a preventative medicine. Personally, I've had great success with it.
Sometimes, in the dead of the night, I wonder if the folks at selection don't want you to use duct tape because it works too well. . . nah, that couldn't be it. :D
That said, TR's comment is well founded. After having worked in ship yards, trust me when I say chemicals can be scary and transdermal absorbtion is a real thing. My skin doesn't react to the adhesives in duct tape (so far as I can tell. . . perhaps future children will grow a third arm?), but then again, I've never used bonafide 100 mph tape, which I understand has some form of epoxy-type adhesive.
Books
Books/Non-Tabbed Advisors:
Stop dispensing advice unless you check with an Admin here first, or successfully complete the SFQC and some team deployments while doing the crazy things you are suggesting, without ill-effect to yourself or others, whichever comes first.
Your advice is going to get someone hurt and I don't want them to have gotten it here, or to have to carry their asses back to the dispensary when I find them looking like a road kill along the trail.
Anyone else with any wazoo suggestions who isn't a QP needs to take note and ask an Admin first.
TR
Question for one of the docs. (if this is better off in the med thread please move)
When in SFAS-prep mode, I used to, in addition to a progressive program of boot break in and rucking , paint tincture of benzoin on the bottoms and rub points of my feet (toes, heels etc.) at a miinimum every morning. Every evening after my after-work ruck I used to soak my feet in warm water and epsom salts. My feet did get pretty damn caloused (sp?) and in addition, turned a very nice shade of orange
I never knew why i was soaking my feet in epsom salts.... I think I heard that somewhere and figured what the hell.
To be sure, I followed a progressive regimine of walking and was very careful of not turning my feet to hamburger. I let my feet get hot spots, took care of them and then kept on walking as per all the good advice in this thread.
Oh, and I did carry and rub a lucky rabbit's foot. Not sure if that has any medical significance, but I thought I mention it just in case.
Was I doing any good / harm with the tincture and epsom salts stuff that I was doing ? How about that rabbit's foot? Reading this thread has got me curious.
thanks
Books/Non-Tabbed Advisors:
Stop dispensing advice unless you check with an Admin here first, or successfully complete the SFQC and some team deployments while doing the crazy things you are suggesting, without ill-effect to yourself or others, whichever comes first.
Your advice is going to get someone hurt and I don't want them to have gotten it here, or to have to carry their asses back to the dispensary when I find them looking like a road kill along the trail.
Anyone else with any wazoo suggestions who isn't a QP needs to take note and ask an Admin first.
TR
Understood.
When in SFAS-prep mode, I used to, in addition to a progressive program of boot break in and rucking , paint tincture of benzoin on the bottoms and rub points of my feet (toes, heels etc.) at a miinimum every morning. not a doc...but that is what we did in SFQC when i was going through...i had no blister problems...did the same thing in Ranger School...no blister problems...
airbornefox
08-09-2005, 14:24
I searched the forums for this and couldn't find anything on it. I was recently recommended a product called BAG BALM to condition and care for feet. Have any of you had any experience using this product?
Peregrino
08-09-2005, 14:43
I searched the forums for this and couldn't find anything on it. I was recently recommended a product called BAG BALM to condition and care for feet. Have any of you had any experience using this product?
I don't know about using it on feet. It was originally a farm remedy for chapped udders on milk cows. It works well to soften and promote healing of dried and cracked/chapped skin, e.g. hands. IIRC it has a lot of lanolin in it. Might not be what you want for calloused/toughened feet. You can probably find it at Lehmans.com or Cumberland General Store. Most farm supply/feed stores will probably have it too. FWIW - Peregrino
Edited to add - Now I'm annoyed. A two second Google on your part would have saved me five minutes of hunting and pecking on this keyboard. I need to take attitude lessons from some of the Admins.
The Reaper
08-09-2005, 14:55
I searched the forums for this and couldn't find anything on it. I was recently recommended a product called BAG BALM to condition and care for feet. Have any of you had any experience using this product?
Do you want soft, sensitive feet, or tough, callused ones?
TR
The Reaper
08-09-2005, 15:01
Edited to add - Now I'm annoyed. A two second Google on your part would have saved me five minutes of hunting and pecking on this keyboard. I need to take attitude lessons from some of the Admins.
I told you.
Kids today are lazy.
Imagine having to go to the library every time you wanted an answer to a question.
Instead of googling or searching it, they just ask here.
Hey, what time is it? I don't want to have to turn my wrist to look at my watch.
TR
Bottom line is get off the a**, put on your boots, pick up your ruck, not the one with the pillows in it, and hit the trails.
put your feet through diiferent terrain:
-hills
-SAND (hint, hint)
-gravel
etc.
It's no good just to walk on flat surfaces. Cause when you go down to SFAS, #1 rule NO ROADS. If your feet are just used to flat roads, and then you start trecking through the woods. You'll get hot spots and blisters in new spots you could have prevented. Not an expert but it makes sense!!
He who gives up, must live with that the rest of his life!!
Peregrino
08-09-2005, 18:06
(Didn't want to clutter up the thread but...)
FWIW, some of us appreciate this resource, and the opportunity to use it, very much Sirs. :)
For all of the information you guys provide, and the opportunity to ask the specific questions (post-research of course)... You have my thanks.
Regards,
XXXX
XXXX - I don't mind answering questions. I actually enjoy "pontificating." Sometimes I can even contribute something of value to the discussion. I do mind letting myself get suckered into responding to a mindless query that the poster could have answered himself with a little personal initiative, some basic research, and a minimal application of common sense. I am as annoyed at myself for the wasted time/effort as I am at the poster. I don't have the thousands of posts some of the more prolific members do but I am looking at adopting some of their attitude where it comes to stupidity and laziness. As I understand it, the primary intent of this board is to encourage and nurture the individuals who have the ability and desire to become the next generation of Special Forces Soldier. I wholeheartedly support those goals. Mindless queries, a lack of personal initiative, and failure to use basic research skills or common sense are indicators of undesireable character traits that are not indicative of future success in Special Forces. If I can contribute something to the future of SF with a little chlorine and cleaning the filters when my turn comes around to do pool maintenance then I will do my duty as best I can. End Rant - Now we return you to your previous thread! Peregrino
airbornefox
08-10-2005, 16:32
My question was if any of YOU had any experience using it. Sorry to get everyone all riled up. I know what it is because I did search online for it and visited the website but I wanted to see if any of the members here have actually used it and what they thought of it. The person that recommended it to me has extensive experience in the unconventional forces and was I wanting to know your opinions because I always look for more than one source when recommended something.
Once again sorry for starting a slew of flames thrown my way but I thought it was an honest question.
The Reaper
08-10-2005, 17:18
My question was if any of YOU had any experience using it. Sorry to get everyone all riled up. I know what it is because I did search online for it and visited the website but I wanted to see if any of the members here have actually used it and what they thought of it. The person that recommended it to me has extensive experience in the unconventional forces and was I wanting to know your opinions because I always look for more than one source when recommended something.
Once again sorry for starting a slew of flames thrown my way but I thought it was an honest question.
AF:
I have "extensive experience in unconventional forces" as well, and I gave you my opinion.
My wife has used it on her hands to keep them soft and young looking, I want my feet to be hard.
If this is how you react to criticism, you might look for another site to ask questions, and really consider whether you are cut out for SF.
TR
Firewolf
12-17-2005, 00:54
During my selection, back in may last year, I saw the strangest thing... when a fellow candidate's feet started to swell after a march with yet another joyous activity ahead of us, he slathered his feet with vaseline... he said it eliminated his hotspots by preventing repetitive friction. I honestly think he was crazy, but If I remember correctly, he made it.
Throughout the Q I maintained that clean socks (Thorlos were my personal favorite), properly worn boots (Jungles I had been wearing daily, whether in uniform or civilian attire) and intermittent powdering kept me going no matter what the distance or condition.
twoforflinching
12-29-2005, 12:41
I have a question that might be kind of silly but i'll go ahead and ask anyway. I found boots I really like and fit better than any sneaker i've ever had, when I bought my second pair of them the new pair didn't fit as well as the first pair so I recently bought inserts for them ( dr scholls memory fit ). I put the inserts in without taking the old ones out to see how the boots would fit and its a snug fit like the original pair. My question is, are there any efffects of having two pairs of inserts in the boot? I haven't done a march in them yet in fact i haven't really wore them out yet ( with the both inserts in ). Thanks for any comments
Warrior-Mentor
02-15-2006, 21:52
"I believe in the basics: attention to, and perfection of tiny details that might commonly be overlooked. They may seem trivial, perhaps even laughable to those who don't understand, but they aren't. they are fundamental to your success. They are the difference between champions and near champions.
"For example, at the start of each season, I personally demonstrated how I wanted players to put on their socks each and every time: carefully roll the socks down over the toes, ball of the foot, arch around the heel, then pull the sock up snug so there will be no wrinkles of any kind.
"I would have the players check with their fingers for any folds orr creases in th esock, starting at the toes and sliding th ehand along the side of and under the foot, smoothing th esock out as the fingers passed over it. I paid special attentin to the heel because that is where wrinkles are most likely.
"I would watch as the player smoothed the sock under and along the back of the heel. I wanted it done conscentiously, not quickly or casually. I wanted absolutely no folds, wrinkles or creses of any kind on the sock.
"Then we would proceed to the other foot and do the same. I would demonstrate for the players and have the players demonstrate for me.
"This may seem like a nuisance, trivial, but I had a very practical reason for being meticulous about this. Wrinkles, folds and creases can cause blisters. Blisters interfere with performance. Since there was a way to reduce blisters, something we could control, it was our responsibility to do it. Otherwise we would not be doing everything possible to prepare in the best way."
- John Wooden
10 Time NCAA Championship Coach
bosljeff
02-16-2006, 13:44
All the advice above and in Get Selected (Aarid XXX, isopropyl alcohol, etc...) seems to have worked well thus far (my feet seem like rocks) for me, but is it possible to have feet too tough and dry? Is there a fine line between tough and dry, cracked, and bleeding?
I know I don't want pretty salon pampered feet (who the hell does?), but is there some merit to crap like this?
http://www.rangerjoes.com/total-foot-recovery-cream-p-1594.html Or is it better to be too dry than not dry enough?
Thank you for your time.
Warrior-Mentor
02-20-2006, 22:30
Maybe after selection you'll want soft, gentle feet.
Most guys have problems with feet being too soft resulting in huge blisters. Cracks are nothing compared to the blisters that can make the bottom of your feet feel on fire as they peel away layers of skin...
There are lots of things for sale on the internet...
... perhaps you can get some of this Magic Cure All (http://www.vagisil.com/) :rolleyes:
It's recommended frequently by 9 out of 10 SF Medics.
___________________________________________
On a serious note, the only time I had a problem with cracking skin on my feet was the result of a bad case of athlete's foot. I'll take cracked feet over blisters any day. BTW, good hygiene and clean socks will prevent athlete's foot...and yes, you have to wash your feet with soap.
bosljeff
02-21-2006, 07:12
... perhaps you can get some of this Magic Cure All (http://www.vagisil.com/) :rolleyes:
It's recommended frequently by 9 out of 10 SF Medics.
:D touché.
Thanks for the advice. I appreciate your time.
Warrior-Mentor
02-21-2006, 10:11
Interesting quote...
Here's a variation I'd like to share...
"An ounce of discipline is worth a pound of regret."
I did the death march hike between Sandakan and Ranau (criss crossing along an old POW route) over 10 days and covering 250 kilometers in North Borneo in 2005 and one of the big problems most of us had were blisters and lost toe nails.
Anyone have any comments on dealing with lost toe nails and/or preventative measures to avoid them?
The nice thing about toe nails is that they grow back. Some folks are prone to losing them (such as myself) and others never give it a second thought.
As I understand it medically, the pressure created during the movement (or motorcycle accident, ruck dropped on it, etc.) causes swelling/hematoma that separates the nail from the nail bed. As it loses its anchor, the nail falls away, the toe heals and the nail regrows. Takes a few months. During the last couple of years in the course, I've lost several. So it goes.
As for PM. . . remove the initial insult. Since you seem like the kind of fellow who enjoys 250 klick movements over a week and a half, never mind.
Basic foot care works. Trim your nails (correctly: straight across the toe, not curved), clean your feet, everything TR said. . .
One terrible secret though (and I know I'll get a ration of sh-t for this). . . I got this idea from the aforementioned Fixing Your Feet. About a week before I anticipate going into the field, I spend the fifteen bucks to have a nice Vietnamese lady give me a pedicure. They soak your dogs and buff out the rough edges; fewer rough edges, fewer opportunities for blisters. Kind of gay? Not so much, so long as you skip the toe nail polish.
Books
The nice thing about toe nails is that they grow back. Some folks are prone to losing them (such as myself) and others never give it a second thought.
As I understand it medically, the pressure created during the movement (or motorcycle accident, ruck dropped on it, etc.) causes swelling/hematoma that separates the nail from the nail bed. As it loses its anchor, the nail falls away, the toe heals and the nail regrows. Takes a few months. During the last couple of years in the course, I've lost several. So it goes.
As for PM. . . remove the initial insult. Since you seem like the kind of fellow who enjoys 250 klick movements over a week and a half, never mind.
Basic foot care works. Trim your nails (correctly: straight across the toe, not curved), clean your feet, everything TR said. . .
One terrible secret though (and I know I'll get a ration of sh-t for this). . . I got this idea from the aforementioned Fixing Your Feet. About a week before I anticipate going into the field, I spend the fifteen bucks to have a nice Vietnamese lady give me a pedicure. They soak your dogs and buff out the rough edges; fewer rough edges, fewer opportunities for blisters. Kind of gay? Not so much, so long as you skip the toe nail polish.
Books
Oh, it wasnt what I expected. We had no shade in the entire "march" and we were pushing 6-8km/per hour over 25-35km per day just to beat the heat and it was brutal. We probably picked the worst week possible with zero cloud cover and no rain so it wont rank as one of my best experinces but it was an experince.
I lost both my big toe nails (one dropped out a few days after we finished) and my end toe nails and had them bandaged and cleaned daily but it was such a bitch to have to walk with shoes on; ended up doing the last two days in ACG sandals and then got my feet sunburnt so I was not only dumb but silly not to think of getting sunburnt as well...
But I think I was just to exhausted and was not thinking straight more than anything by the time we got past day five.
The blisters were just out of this world and the borneo heat and humidity doesnt help one bit.
One terrible secret though (and I know I'll get a ration of sh-t for this). . . I got this idea from the aforementioned Fixing Your Feet. About a week before I anticipate going into the field, I spend the fifteen bucks to have a nice Vietnamese lady give me a pedicure. They soak your dogs and buff out the rough edges; fewer rough edges, fewer opportunities for blisters. Kind of gay? Not so much, so long as you skip the toe nail polish.
Books
Gentlemen,
I'm glad you brought this up, I was a bit curious. I'm serving with the 29th INF right now, a bunch of the older guys swear by a pedicure every now and again. I've gone and gotten a few myself, but with all the moisture they put into your feet, would it be working against the hardening process too much, or would it prevent the "too dry and cracked" scenario previously mentioned. Just curious, I appreciate your input.
SPC Fonz.
Gentlemen,
I'm glad you brought this up, I was a bit curious. I'm serving with the 29th INF right now, a bunch of the older guys swear by a pedicure every now and again. I've gone and gotten a few myself, but with all the moisture they put into your feet, would it be working against the hardening process too much, or would it prevent the "too dry and cracked" scenario previously mentioned. Just curious, I appreciate your input.
SPC Fonz.Walking in the field -vs- rucking in the Q-course are two totally different animals.
Stay safe.
Gentlemen,
I'm glad you brought this up, I was a bit curious. I'm serving with the 29th INF right now, a bunch of the older guys swear by a pedicure every now and again. I've gone and gotten a few myself, but with all the moisture they put into your feet, would it be working against the hardening process too much, or would it prevent the "too dry and cracked" scenario previously mentioned. Just curious, I appreciate your input.
SPC Fonz.
Everything Guy wrote is pretty much right on the money (pardon the pun). Fellows have been going through the Q course for years now without fancy pedicures. They're just nice to have. They're even better when you're a little drunk (think massage for your feet). As far as moisture goes, as soon as you dump some Desenex or Gold bond powder, you're back to square one. The pedicure's real benefit is that it smooths out your foot so those thick ass callouses blend better with the rest of your foot. If you're a penny pinching Nasty Guard SPC like me (15 bucks is a box of ammo), you'll skip it, drive on and remember when you had disposable income for such things. If you have the cash and don't care what they call you in the barracks, have fun.
Books
Books:
I am in NO way saying; get a pedicure! I've walked "damn near" every course that required rucking in the US Army. The callouses that are developed from rucking serves a purpose plus; I can cut my own toenails...
"If you want pretty, soft, and smooth feet! Find another line of work!"
Stay safe.
Guy,
With respect, I'm in no way saying you were. You wrote "save your money" and that walking in the woods is different than rucking in the Q. I agreed with you by saying that felllows have been doing this for years without getting pedicures.
They're not necessary; just nice to have. And as far as having nice smooth feet, mine are about as ugly and jacked up as they get and I'm not leaving this job.
Sorry for the confusion.
Books
Guy,
With respect, I'm in no way saying you were. You wrote "save your money" and that walking in the woods is different than rucking in the Q. I agreed with you by saying that felllows have been doing this for years without getting pedicures.
They're not necessary; just nice to have. And as far as having nice smooth feet, mine are about as ugly and jacked up as they get and I'm not leaving this job.
Sorry for the confusion.
Books
Given how my nails grow, I can see the logic in a pedicure, not that I have ever had one but I have had my nail yanked off by a doctor because it was dead..and that was torture...took forever for him to pull it out..and even with the pain killer jabs (had 2 if I remember correct on the toe), it still bloody hurt...
I have a 3 inch by 1 inch spot on the arch of my foot that will blister every time I run or ruck. After a couple of weeks the blister hardens and becomes a callous, which is great. But after about 2 weeks the callous falls off exposing new sensitive skin which blisters within a mile of the callous falling off. Any suggestions?
I... After a couple of weeks the blister hardens and becomes a callous, which is great. But after about 2 weeks the callous falls off exposing new sensitive skin which blisters within a mile of the callous falling off. Any suggestions?
Thats not a callous. Blisters do not become a callous. If they flatten out they become dead skin covering tender skin. When it finally tears off the new tender skin is revealed.
Your need to stop before it becomes a blister, that way you can build a callous.
Thanks for the fast response Pete.
Yeah, I sure wish I'd been more disciplined on my first ruck. The day after I talked to my recruiter about transferring to the NG and starting the selection process I decided to throw on a 55 pound ruck and my LBE. I started cross country and moved to a bike trail, covering about seven miles. I would admit this as an accomplishment for a newbie if it weren't for the fact that I didn't let myself stop for a foot drill, even after getting my feet a bit wet trying to jump across a stream. the only stop I made was to retie a ruck strap, and I paid no attention to the hot spots on my feet. I was far too hard core in my own estimation. Bottom line is that all this got me were some fun looking blisters on my feet, a few of which got infected. Thanks TR and W-M. Your info is all written down in the notes section of my ranger handbook.
It may or may not be frowned upon by QP's and others, but in my experience rucking I've found that putting a white sock over your issued OD or black socks really helps cut down on the friction. I prefer to use plain, white cotton ankle socks over my issued OD's when I know I'm going for longer distances. My good buddy did this in SFAS and still does in SFQC currently. He hardly ever gets blisters.
However, nothing can take the place of boots that simply fit your foot well. I generally wear a 12.5R in desert boots and I will try on two dozen or more pairs if that's what it takes to find one that fits properly. Call me picky, but I've only got one set of feet and I don't like to cause them undue pain. Consequently, I find the best fits come from Altama brand boots.
Gentlemen, thank you again for the excellent advice.
rblockmon
05-24-2008, 13:44
It may or may not be frowned upon by QP's and others, but in my experience rucking I've found that putting a white sock over your issued OD or black socks really helps cut down on the friction. I prefer to use plain, white cotton ankle socks over my issued OD's when I know I'm going for longer distances. My good buddy did this in SFAS and still does in SFQC currently. He hardly ever gets blisters.
I thought the only thing that you can use at SFAS was Army Issue boots and socks along with Moleskin in order to level the playing field for the canidates?
Surgicalcric
05-24-2008, 22:05
It may or may not be frowned upon by QP's and others, but in my experience rucking I've found that putting a white sock over your issued OD or black socks really helps cut down on the friction. I prefer to use plain, white cotton ankle socks over my issued OD's when I know I'm going for longer distances. My good buddy did this in SFAS and still does in SFQC currently. He hardly ever gets blisters....
Short cuts...
I wonder what he will do when he gets to a team and finds himself in a situation where he cannot wear 2 pairs of socks or carry enough spares to supplement wearing more than one pair.
Guys, when it comes to socks and boots the best bet is to toughen your feet a bit. We dont always have the pleasure of wearing multiple pairs of socks or packing enough for that... Also, there are plenty of places it is counter productive to wear more than one pair. What then???
Crip
I actually just had my very first peticure/manicure on my toe nails and BOY did it make a big difference...the pains from running on the road with the in-grown parts of the nail rubbing against the skin are gone and my feet feel brand new (well, sort of).
I must agree it does make a difference, especially for those who have in-grown toe nails on those long rucks...
It may or may not be frowned upon by QP's and others, but in my experience rucking I've found that putting a white sock over your issued OD or black socks really helps cut down on the friction. I prefer to use plain, white cotton ankle socks over my issued OD's when I know I'm going for longer distances. My good buddy did this in SFAS and still does in SFQC currently. He hardly ever gets blisters.
However, nothing can take the place of boots that simply fit your foot well. I generally wear a 12.5R in desert boots and I will try on two dozen or more pairs if that's what it takes to find one that fits properly. Call me picky, but I've only got one set of feet and I don't like to cause them undue pain. Consequently, I find the best fits come from Altama brand boots.
Gentlemen, thank you again for the excellent advice.
Wet cotton socks will probably do more damage than you think...Boy, I can just imagine the blisters now!
rblockmon
05-25-2008, 09:22
I use to get in-grown toe nails really bad. The last time I went to the doctors (before I got in the Army), they clip down the sides of where the nail grows next to the skin, and then added some type of chemical at the root where it killed the cuticle to prevent that part of the nail to grow agian. No problems since then.
VanceWine
06-07-2009, 10:54
Im simply flat footed. I'm the 3rd generation in my family that has flat feet.
Grandfather was a 26 yr. Marine, and highly respected. He was flat footed, it didn't bother him then but does now. My Father was also a marine, only for 6 years, but same deal, feet didn't bother him but does now...
Their issues are common with flatfooted people, that have done alot of lifting in their time. Is there advice on feet by structure? Recommened boot mods for flat feet people? I run great, and ruck even better, and will be getting my tab, my feet aren't stopping me from that, but I am however looking for advice for the long run. Thanks For this site. VW
....., but I am however looking for advice for the long run. Thanks For this site. VW
I see you've been here a year. Long enough to rear plenty of threads.
Advice? Make your first post in the intro thread. Oh, wait, this was your first post.
Want to explain why you're "special".
VanceWine
06-07-2009, 14:39
I see you've been here a year. Long enough to rear plenty of threads.
Advice? Make your first post in the intro thread. Oh, wait, this was your first post.
Want to explain why you're "special".
why am I special?
Hmm. well I fly ultralights and own a "minimax 449cc" A buddy and I installed the wings before I flew I put one on and tightened it down, and he put the other on, (failing to bolt it in) do to getting side tracked for a coke. (the drink)
I flew that day for about 15 minutes and after landing the wing slipped off.. I consider it special im still alive!
why am I special?....
I'll bet you were the only one who read my post and thought the way you did.
Everybody else got it. Why are you "special" and don't need to post an intro thread?
Attention to detail, son, attention to detail.
Pete
Surgicalcric
06-07-2009, 17:02
why am I special?
Hmm. well I fly ultralights and own a "minimax 449cc" A buddy and I installed the wings before I flew I put one on and tightened it down, and he put the other on, (failing to bolt it in) do to getting side tracked for a coke. (the drink)
I flew that day for about 15 minutes and after landing the wing slipped off.. I consider it special im still alive!
One would think with having been here a year you would have a lil more SA than you have displayed here today, one would think...
Tighten your shot group...
Crip
In the words of my Jumpmaster instructor, 'Freaking WOW'. :munchin
Anyone have any experience with tan desert boots that are fairly good for rucking. When I went through selection we were still using regular jungles. I didn't have that many blister problems but now using regular army issue tan boots I get hotspots in the bottom of my feet whereas before I could be fine with only resting for about 3-5 minutes every hour. This is at about a 14:00 minute pace.
I get the hotspots at around 45 minutes every hour starting at hour 2. I just need to be able to push through the last 15 minutes but that will cause a blister based on experience. So any suggestions for good tan boots out on the market now(no non issue type boots, I have merrels, asolos etc that work great but unfortunately can't use them). Just seeing what works for everyone these days, used the search function but haven't found anything concrete. Thanks
Sweetbriar
07-13-2009, 20:27
May I add my humble addition to this topic? I'm on my feet all day and wear athletic shoes. As it turns out, what I had purchased online was the wrong, most perfectly awful, fit. Two days after getting the right pair of shoes in person at the store, I feel like I might not have to retire just yet after all!
Good shoes (and a properly fitted bra) will change your entire outlook on life and are worth every penny you can afford.
IMHO
;)
May I add my humble addition to this topic? I'm on my feet all day and wear athletic shoes. As it turns out, what I had purchased online was the wrong, most perfectly awful, fit. Two days after getting the right pair of shoes in person at the store, I feel like I might not have to retire just yet after all!
Good shoes (and a properly fitted bra) will change your entire outlook on life and are worth every penny you can afford.
IMHO
;)
EUREKA!
That's IT!
I need to get a bra (properly fitting, of course) tomorrow so that my wife and kids will stop accusing me of being hard to live with!!!! :D
bosljeff
07-16-2009, 10:52
On the topic of running shoes, for those of us at Bragg, Raleigh has a running store called Raleigh Running Outfitters that is an indy-run ma & pa shop with excellent gait analysis. Not only do they check your arch and so on, they record your foot (I think using High Speed HD camera) on a treadmill to watch your foot impact the ground...excellent store. Best place to get a true perfect fit.
919-870-8998
May I add my humble addition to this topic? I'm on my feet all day and wear athletic shoes. As it turns out, what I had purchased online was the wrong, most perfectly awful, fit. Two days after getting the right pair of shoes in person at the store, I feel like I might not have to retire just yet after all!
Good shoes (and a properly fitted bra) will change your entire outlook on life and are worth every penny you can afford.
IMHO
;)
DragonSlayer
02-27-2010, 14:49
I'm having a hard time finding a definitive answer on what is currently required at SFAS in terms of boots. I don't want to wast time and money breaking in boots that will get me disqualified.
Can I assume that black boots of any kind are no longer acceptable?
Are there more strict requirements concerning tan boots than are outlined in the Army regs (670-1)?
In particular, I have Danner Desert TFXs and Magnum Amazons.
Additionally, do they go easy on stuff like 6" boots?
Surgicalcric
02-27-2010, 15:22
DragonSlayer:
Having been a member here for a year now one would think that you would know to make an Intro in the appropriate place as your first post. That said you need to do so before posting again. You need to re/read all the stickies and rules as well.
The ability to follow simple instructions is something we assess for at selection.
As for your question, with the use of the search button your question can be answered.
Crip
Joe_Snuffy
03-01-2010, 16:19
I have a foot related question that one of the docs might be able to answer [or anyone with experience really]:
My feet are decently conditioned thanks to my stint thus far in the Army so they don't blister to easily [I don't really get hot spots until 10 miles, and don't start shredding them until about 14-15 miles if I haven't rucked in a few months] but when I do get blisters they aren't held in by a thin layer of skin but rather buried under a couple millimeters of it, and if they burst I end up losing that nice protective layer of toughened skin. Are there any tips for countering this, or do the standard foot care tips apply?
Dozer523
03-01-2010, 16:35
I have a foot related question that one of the docs might be able to answer [or anyone with experience really]:
My feet are decently conditioned thanks to. . . . [I don't really get hot spots until . . . shredding them until about . . . . Are there any tips for countering this, or do the standard foot care tips apply? You sound a tad proud of those blisters, you should be.
Protect your hands, without them you can't shoot. You are an extra body to be cared for. GLOVES
Protect your eyes, without them you are blind. One or two plus you are out of the fight. BALLISTIC GLASSES.
Protect your feet, without them you are going nowhere. Two or four plus you are out of the fight. MOLE SKIN.
Joe_Snuffy
03-01-2010, 16:44
You sound a tad proud of those blisters, you should be.
Protect your hands, without them you can't shoot. You are an extra body to be cared for. GLOVES
Protect your eyes, without them you are blind. One or two plus you are out of the fight. BALLISTIC GLASSES.
Protect your feet, without them you are going nowhere. Two or four plus you are out of the fight. MOLE SKIN.
Roger. I just wanted to confirm a hunch that I just needed to better apply the basics. I mean my feet are firm, but there is always room for improvement. Just picked up a whole bunch of moleskin too [the PX on my COP doesn't carry it] and am going to be hitting up the medics for more once I get a chance. Thanks for the info.
DragonSlayer
03-07-2010, 18:33
@Surgicalcric: Having plenty of experience in a trade (which my profile outlines adequately enough, a feature that I would think renders the intro thread redundant) that requires meticulous attention to detail, particularly following instructions, I made my initial post on the introduction thread, as prescribed. I made several other posts that month on various threads, to which none were replied, and I haven't checked back on this forum since then. I have no idea why my initial posts no longer appear. You will find a new post made in “Introductions IV,” per your request.
I also consider myself savvy enough to have exhausted the search resource after many hours of reading without finding a current answer to my question, neither on this site, nor other sites or in books. I posted in this thread because other relevant threads haven't been touched for years, and this seemed better than creating a new one. I know that the folks at SFAS have a strict interpretation and application of the regs. I have seen this question posed on these forums, and I have seen the answers as well as the ridicule. Interestingly enough, much of the information is quite old, even referring to soaking the old black issued boots in oil and all that good sauce (the outdated information about black boots is still in Get Selected, too). I suspect that the current suede boots are not appropriate for that treatment. Then there is the restatement of the word “issue,” which I am not sure about, given regulations that don't seem to require issued boots. I have not been in the Army, but I know what the regs meant in the USMC, and for a person with stupid wide feet and high arches that fit nothing available from authorized manufacturers, it meant I had to break the rules and get boots that fit. I had this discussion with many a belt-fed SNCO. Wearing those shitty, ill-fitting "issued" boots during basic training and jump school resulted in fractured metatarsals and spiral shin fractures, which is a condition I don’t care to duplicate. The current Army regs on boots seem liberal enough to cover my case, but if the SFAS cadre is squashing people for wearing Danners, then I’ll settle for getting approved boots, whatever they may actually be, and pay to have them modified to fit my feet. All I’m looking for is clarification. It was my hope that a helpful chap who is currently or knows cadre at SFAS would find my post and illuminate me, or at least point me in the right direction (i.e. something other than the vaunted search button, which yields inadequate results.)
Wierd as it sounds, but I have reverted to using office socks (thin one's) with my salomons and find I blister less, shoes and foot dry faster in the sun and I have a far more snug fit with my shoes.
Anyone tried this before? Instead of using thick cotton socks..
@Surgicalcric: Having plenty of experience in a trade (which my profile outlines adequately enough, a feature that I would think renders the intro thread redundant) that requires meticulous attention to detail, particularly following instructions, I made my initial post on the introduction thread, as prescribed. I made several other posts that month on various threads, to which none were replied, and I haven't checked back on this forum since then. I have no idea why my initial posts no longer appear. You will find a new post made in “Introductions IV,” per your request.
I also consider myself savvy enough to have exhausted the search resource after many hours of reading without finding a current answer to my question, neither on this site, nor other sites or in books. I posted in this thread because other relevant threads haven't been touched for years, and this seemed better than creating a new one. I know that the folks at SFAS have a strict interpretation and application of the regs. I have seen this question posed on these forums, and I have seen the answers as well as the ridicule. Interestingly enough, much of the information is quite old, even referring to soaking the old black issued boots in oil and all that good sauce (the outdated information about black boots is still in Get Selected, too). I suspect that the current suede boots are not appropriate for that treatment. Then there is the restatement of the word “issue,” which I am not sure about, given regulations that don't seem to require issued boots. I have not been in the Army, but I know what the regs meant in the USMC, and for a person with stupid wide feet and high arches that fit nothing available from authorized manufacturers, it meant I had to break the rules and get boots that fit. I had this discussion with many a belt-fed SNCO. Wearing those shitty, ill-fitting "issued" boots during basic training and jump school resulted in fractured metatarsals and spiral shin fractures, which is a condition I don’t care to duplicate. The current Army regs on boots seem liberal enough to cover my case, but if the SFAS cadre is squashing people for wearing Danners, then I’ll settle for getting approved boots, whatever they may actually be, and pay to have them modified to fit my feet. All I’m looking for is clarification. It was my hope that a helpful chap who is currently or knows cadre at SFAS would find my post and illuminate me, or at least point me in the right direction (i.e. something other than the vaunted search button, which yields inadequate results.)
I am not SF... but you expect a positive outcome from this "Belt fed" wall of text fired off like a Javelin at Cric?
Wow.
The Reaper
03-08-2010, 11:24
@Surgicalcric: Having plenty of experience in a trade (which my profile outlines adequately enough, a feature that I would think renders the intro thread redundant) that requires meticulous attention to detail, particularly following instructions, I made my initial post on the introduction thread, as prescribed. I made several other posts that month on various threads, to which none were replied, and I haven't checked back on this forum since then. I have no idea why my initial posts no longer appear. You will find a new post made in “Introductions IV,” per your request.
I also consider myself savvy enough to have exhausted the search resource after many hours of reading without finding a current answer to my question, neither on this site, nor other sites or in books. I posted in this thread because other relevant threads haven't been touched for years, and this seemed better than creating a new one. I know that the folks at SFAS have a strict interpretation and application of the regs. I have seen this question posed on these forums, and I have seen the answers as well as the ridicule. Interestingly enough, much of the information is quite old, even referring to soaking the old black issued boots in oil and all that good sauce (the outdated information about black boots is still in Get Selected, too). I suspect that the current suede boots are not appropriate for that treatment. Then there is the restatement of the word “issue,” which I am not sure about, given regulations that don't seem to require issued boots. I have not been in the Army, but I know what the regs meant in the USMC, and for a person with stupid wide feet and high arches that fit nothing available from authorized manufacturers, it meant I had to break the rules and get boots that fit. I had this discussion with many a belt-fed SNCO. Wearing those shitty, ill-fitting "issued" boots during basic training and jump school resulted in fractured metatarsals and spiral shin fractures, which is a condition I don’t care to duplicate. The current Army regs on boots seem liberal enough to cover my case, but if the SFAS cadre is squashing people for wearing Danners, then I’ll settle for getting approved boots, whatever they may actually be, and pay to have them modified to fit my feet. All I’m looking for is clarification. It was my hope that a helpful chap who is currently or knows cadre at SFAS would find my post and illuminate me, or at least point me in the right direction (i.e. something other than the vaunted search button, which yields inadequate results.)
DS:
You might want to check the attitude. As the board rules state, everyone is asked to post an introduction, even the QPs. If you don't like our rules, fine, go elsewhere. This is a QP board, you are a guest and should comport yourself as such. Snarkiness will get you nowhere.
If you are in the Army, then wear the boots which the CIF gives you, That would be an Army "issue" boot. I wear a EEE civilian shoe. I got the issued W boot in the appropriate size and did fine.
TR
I've researched this one for a while now and have found some good info in the posts, but have a nagging unanswered question about Planters Fasciitis (PF). I've got a fairly solid case of it, and have had it now steady for about a year. I've been training alot, and have been trying like hell to get rid of it before going in and signing an 18x contract. (I use good insoles, stretch the feet, and ice and elevate a few times a day) It looks like I'll need to take some serious time off my feet to get rid of it though. My question is: Is PF something to just deal with, and drive on, or take the time to heal? i.e. in the opinion of someone who has BTDT, should I start the whole enlistment process anyway, and just deal with it because that's what people do...or would that be inviting disaster in SFAS (assuming that I make it past SOPC, airborne, AIT, and basic)?? basically, if i need to suck it up, because everyone deals with it, i want to know. thanks for your time, and any consideration you might give this.
Surgicalcric
03-08-2010, 23:55
...My question is: Is PF something to just deal with, and drive on, or take the time to heal?
Newbie:
PF takes time to heal. The specific amount of time will depend on the extent of your PF, how you are treating it, and your recovery plan. I will tell you for certain that it isnt going to heal as long as you are continuing to train on it, in fact it will get worse as time goes on.
Furthermore, you will not be able to enlist with a non-resolved case of PF, if you are honest on your med screening and/or your DD form 2707/2808. Reading a bit here will reveal how the vast majority of us feel about lying about pre-existing disqualifying medical conditions...I assure you it isnt favorable.
All that being said, you should see a podiatrist -if you arent seeing one now- for treatment and follow their advice to the letter. It is going to put you on your ass for a bit, but its better 3-6 months now than 2-3 years later.
HTH,
Crip
Not a doc but I had PF when training for SFAS. Probably less severe than yours sounds. I finally went to the TMC and gave them my whole story and pressed for any possible way to speed up the recovery beyond the "ice massage (the dixie cup thing..), rest, and motrin" COA.
They ended up giving me a prescription to go get custom orthotic insoles/arch supports that helped. That and I had to adjust my training to rest my feet a bunch....then build back up slow.
Healing will take time.
craigepo
03-09-2010, 09:33
Newbie
Sometimes pain is something to drive through, sometimes not. The good Lord gave us nerve endings for a reason.
Sounds like time to start doing some cross-training. If you have a pool nearby, find a good swim workout(you may be able to search and find a pre-scuba workout on this site----be warned, it is some body-nazi stuff). Jump on a bike, whatever it takes to keep from beating your feet up.
Every prescription I have heard of regarding PF has included reduced pounding on your feet.
99meters
03-09-2010, 13:40
I've researched this one for a while now and have found some good info in the posts, but have a nagging unanswered question about Planters Fasciitis (PF). I've got a fairly solid case of it, and have had it now steady for about a year. I've been training alot, and have been trying like hell to get rid of it before going in and signing an 18x contract. (I use good insoles, stretch the feet, and ice and elevate a few times a day) It looks like I'll need to take some serious time off my feet to get rid of it though. My question is: Is PF something to just deal with, and drive on, or take the time to heal? i.e. in the opinion of someone who has BTDT, should I start the whole enlistment process anyway, and just deal with it because that's what people do...or would that be inviting disaster in SFAS (assuming that I make it past SOPC, airborne, AIT, and basic)?? basically, if i need to suck it up, because everyone deals with it, i want to know. thanks for your time, and any consideration you might give this.
Find a good ART practitioner and you can be back to normal in a few weeks.
"Active Release Techniques" is a type of pin and stretch massage. Great for PF and most soft tissue injuries.
hth
Honestly, i can tell you that that was some of the best advice I've ever gotten on anything. Thanks for all the info, and PM's etc. I plan on starting a swimming workout ASAP, and found that there is an ART practitioner just down the street from me...heck'uve a coincidence. So im gonna work this BS outta my feet and see where it gets me. Being flat footed, ill probably have it for good in one way or another, but as long as it's not debilitating...Also, SURGICALCRIC, thanks for the info on the medical review stuff. My recruiter has known about the PF, and never mentioned that it might preclude me from even being able to join. you all have my thanks. fading back out now...
turboprop
03-09-2010, 20:59
Here you go Dragon Slayer.
http://www.bragg.army.mil/SORB/text/SFAS%20Outbrief%206%20April%2009.ppt
That brief is from April 2009. A few slides down has the SFAS packing list as well as a slide with name and pictures of the only authorized boots SFAS. I don't know much about Danner boots, but one of the pictures is a Danner.
99meters
03-10-2010, 03:14
Being flat footed, ill probably have it for good in one way or another, but as long as it's not debilitating.....
PF has nothing to do with being flat footed. 99% of soft tissue injuries to the lower limb are the result of poor biomechanics or overuse.
If you are already following a sensible workout program (gradual progressions/overload, rest & recovery, variety, etc) then check your biomechanics.
As for running... keep your shoulders over your hips and your foot contacts under your hips. Also, land flat footed. As you move from a jog to a sprint you land higher up on the balls of your feet...this happens naturally
Running is natural, your body does the right thing if you let it. Reaching foward and trying to stay on the ball of your feet are the two biggest contributers to PF, shin splints and hamstring tears.
Reaching and pointing your toes (trying to stay on the balls of your feet) result in foot touchdowns being far ahead of the center of mass. Therefore, your body pust pull itself over its vertical axis (which is very stressful) before it can push/take off. When it comes to locomotion, the body was design to push not pull.
HTH... good luck with your recovery.
PF has nothing to do with being flat footed.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/plantar-fasciitis/DS00508/DSECTION=risk-factors
Factors that may increase your risk of developing plantar fasciitis include:
Faulty foot mechanics. Being flat-footed, having a high arch or even having an abnormal pattern of walking can adversely affect the way weight is distributed when you're standing, putting added stress on the plantar fascia.
Anevolution
03-10-2010, 10:37
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/plantar-fasciitis/DS00508/DSECTION=risk-factors
Factors that may increase your risk of developing plantar fasciitis include:
Faulty foot mechanics. Being flat-footed, having a high arch or even having an abnormal pattern of walking can adversely affect the way weight is distributed when you're standing, putting added stress on the plantar fascia.
ABC:
His whole post was off. Giving blanked running advice without actually watching him run is counter poductive, he could be a heel striker or toe running etc... I'm sure if he was familiar with running, he would have heard of the Pose meathod witch is the exact opposite of what he listed but is a far better way of running. Greats like Michael Johnson, Carl Lewis, Jesse Owens, Bob Beaman etc... All Pose runners. Pose also as posted in http://www.posetech.com/library/pp-RW-0001.html can stop PF in long time runners with a history of PF. That's scientifically proven info. I wouldn't take his advice with a bag of salt. My .02 :munchin
V/r
Anevolution
99meters
03-11-2010, 00:44
RE: abc_123. The reason it says "may be a factor" is because for every one person that has a high arch or a flat foot and has PF there are five without.
I've been flat footed all my life and competed at the div-1, national and international level without developing PF. I suffered with terrible shin splints all through HS and college and did not get over it untill my post-collegiate coach corrected my running mechanics.
As a coach Ive avoided and corrected numerous lower limb soft-tissue injuries with simble adjusments to load (volume, intensity,surface , etc) and corrections to biomechanics.
A really high arch, really flat feet, oddly unequal limb to torso ratios, or natural ladorsis are factors that may affect "normal" biomechanical movements and call for better planing.
Quick example. I had two athletes with really long limbs and short torsos(built for running) that would always have back and knee problems when we did squats. I switched them to dead lifts and cleans from the hang and never had a problem again. I was able to target the same muscle groups (hip & knee extensors) in a way that used their build to an advantage.
A high arch or a flat foot does not have to be a problem if you know what you are doing.
ABC:
His whole post was off. Giving blanked running advice without actually watching him run is counter poductive, he could be a heel striker or toe running etc... I'm sure if he was familiar with running, he would have heard of the Pose meathod witch is the exact opposite of what he listed but is a far better way of running. Greats like Michael Johnson, Carl Lewis, Jesse Owens, Bob Beaman etc... All Pose runners. Pose also as posted in http://www.posetech.com/library/pp-RW-0001.html can stop PF in long time runners with a history of PF. That's scientifically proven info. I wouldn't take his advice with a bag of salt. My .02 :munchin
V/r
Anevolution
Anevolution, I don't mean to be disrespectful to you, but you really are just talking out of your a$$. What do you know about Bob Beaman or Carl Lewis.
The guy who coached Carl Lewis and many other Olympians and world record holders is Tom Tellez. Tom Tellez was also my coach and is one of my dearest friends. We were all thought the same thing: relaxation first, body position, arm action and lastly, foot placement.
Do you believe the Moroccan that runs the mile in 3:43 or the Ethiopian that runs the 5000 meters (3.1 miles) in 12:37 or those Kenyans that run the marathon in sub 2:07:00 (averaging sub 5min miles for 26 miles) are using the POSE method or running developed by Romannov, the Russian sport sciencetis living in Miami.
Anevolution
03-11-2010, 09:56
Anevolution, I don't mean to be disrespectful to you, but you really are just talking out of your a$$. What do you know about Bob Beaman or Carl Lewis.The guy who coached Carl Lewis and many other Olympians and world record holders is Tom Tellez. Tom Tellez was also my coach and is one of my dearest friends. We were all thought the same thing: relaxation first, body position, arm action and lastly, foot placement. Do you believe the Moroccan that runs the mile in 3:43 or the Ethiopian that runs the 5000 meters (3.1 miles) in 12:37 or those Kenyans that run the marathon in sub 2:07:00 (averaging sub 5min miles for 26 miles) are using the POSE method or running developed by Romannov, the Russian sport sciencetis living in Miami.
99Meters:
I never said anything about them learning pose running. They are all natural pose runners. No ass talking here. :cool: I don't have any cool coach friends, but I have been to 2 certs for Pose running with Crossfit. There they had video break downs of "fast" people who were natural pose runners. Like the above mentioned names. I have also read a few articles in runners world and here and there about it. I think it is a great way of running learned trait or practiced doesn't matter to me. With "ALL" of your running experience, I would have thought you would have known, there were natural pose runners out there. :rolleyes:
V/r
Anevolution
DragonSlayer
03-11-2010, 11:31
@Reaper: message received.
@turboprop: Thanks a bunch. I did look at the Bragg site before, and was a little frustrated by the haphazard layout. I had found the packing list, but the PowerPoint is much more thorough. In particular, the pictures explain a lot more than the text does.
For my fellow wannabes wondering the same thing, it appears that all the boot models pictured use the traditional-style sole, i.e. can be resoled by a cobbler (with the exception of the Bates boots, which have been blessed for reasons I can't comprehend). It looks like my TRXs are out, so I'll be boot shopping, since I won't be able to take advantage of CIF until it's too late to break them in properly. If any QPs in the know care to elaborate on or correct my interpretation of the PowerPoint (http://www.bragg.army.mil/SORB/text/SFAS%20Outbrief%206%20April%2009.ppt), especially since changes may have been made in the year since it was published, I would certainly welcome it.
Surgicalcric
03-11-2010, 13:13
...since I won't be able to take advantage of CIF until it's too late to break them in properly....
You definately want to take well broken in boots to SFAS...
There isnt a CIF for you to specifically draw boots from for SFAS. You should be issued boots from a CIF when you come into the Army though. You can wait for that or purchase a couple pairs of the approved boots and send them to Clark's Boot Repair (referenced here many times) at Ft Bragg for resoling. Either the #6 or #9 sole is my recommendation (also referred to as the SFAS or SOPC special.) They will also remove the heel and toe cups if ya want making them more like a pair of slippers.
Crip
DragonSlayer
03-11-2010, 14:00
@Surgicalcric: My comment regarding CIF is because I'm currently out. I intend to get an 18X contract within the year. I've been led to believe by a couple recruiters that my experience will permit me to go directly to the SFAS prep course and then SFAS, so I know that I need to solve my boot situation before I enlist (hence my pesky questioning). I do plan on the full-gut operation for at least one pair. Making them into slippers sounds like my kind of gig. At present, I do most of my training in trail runners, though I'm doing more with Vibram FiveFingers, now that I have a set with tread. At any rate, I'm hoping that one of the local cobblers will be able to handle the surgery, because postage from the Great White North to Fayetnam may come close to the cost of another pair of boots, and frankly, I'd rather spend that on IPA :D.
I saw posts from a few years ago talking about soaking boots in Neat's oil and whatnot. Considering the dates of the posts (circa 2003-2004), I figured they were in reference to black boots. My own experience with suede boots — whether cowhide, pig or sheepskin — is that oil or wax treatment of any kind will greatly alter the appearance of the boots. Is there some other magic trick you would recommend? Or are treated boots okay as long I have clean ones for garrison business before and after SFAS?
Surgicalcric
03-11-2010, 16:52
...I've been led to believe by a couple recruiters that my experience will permit me to go directly to the SFAS prep course and then SFAS, so I know that I need to solve my boot situation before I enlist... I'm hoping that one of the local cobblers will be able to handle the surgery, because postage from the Great White North to Fayetnam may come close to the cost of another pair of boots, and frankly, I'd rather spend that on IPA :D.
I saw posts from a few years ago talking about soaking boots in Neat's oil and whatnot... Is there some other magic trick you would recommend? Or are treated boots okay as long I have clean ones for garrison business before and after SFAS?
I dont know what you money situation is like but I would encourage you to bite the bullet.
I would imagine the shipping will be about $50.00 for 2 pair of boots. There are other guys here who have paid the shipping. Furthermore, if something happens to your boots Clark's will make it right (if its a workmanship or materials issue) while you are here at Bragg.
As for oil treatments, I dont have any ideas for ya; I wore black boots at SFAS.
Crip
I was the guy who commented about using the Neet's oil for a boot soak. It worked wonders with some old black Welco ripple sole jungles (took forever to get the oil out though). I haven't tried it on tan boots, nor do I intend to now that I wear Asolos in the field mostly.
Taking the toe and heel cups out is a double edged sword. On one hand, you gain ballet slipper comfort and on the other hand you lose parts of the boot's structural support. For example, when I dropped my infil ruck on my toe without toe cups and the frame smashed my big toe, the resulting trauma could have been less had I had the toe cup. . . or it might not have been. It's sooo much fun smashing one's toe to the point of rupture and eventual toenail loss just before an infil . . . effing murphy. And so it goes.
One thing I did to speed up the break in process was to fill my boots with super hot water, drain them, and then (wearing two pairs of socks to prevent blisters from the inevitable rubs) wore them dry. It will take a while. . . and the suede is a sponge unlike the smooth leather - super crappy in the jungle.
Read the book Fixing your Feet for other tips. . . Good luck.
Have any of yall tried this formula called Tuff Foot?
Just ordered this stuff online, it claims to toughen the sskin tissue on your feet and even help prevent athletes foot. Ill give my verdict on the product after using it a week, before a 10 mile ruck.
http://www.tuffoot.com/about/humans.htm
When I was in the course I had a TAC tell me that if you walk outside with out shoes it would help toughen your feet up without the blisters. You have to start three weeks or so before training but it worked for me. I earned maybe,, three blisters the entire course.
Surgical, do the modifications done by Clark's effect the boots size or fit from the original at all (ie: make them fit tighter or looser than original)?
Surgicalcric
04-06-2010, 19:47
Surgical, do the modifications done by Clark's effect the boots size or fit from the original at all (ie: make them fit tighter or looser than original)?
They fit a bit looser with the heel and/or toe cups removed.
Crip
Masochist
04-07-2010, 04:49
Have any of yall tried this formula called Tuff Foot?
Just ordered this stuff online, it claims to toughen the sskin tissue on your feet and even help prevent athletes foot. Ill give my verdict on the product after using it a week, before a 10 mile ruck.
http://www.tuffoot.com/about/humans.htm
So Suede, what's the verdict?
craigepo
04-07-2010, 09:05
Have any of yall tried this formula called Tuff Foot?
Just ordered this stuff online, it claims to toughen the sskin tissue on your feet and even help prevent athletes foot. Ill give my verdict on the product after using it a week, before a 10 mile ruck.
http://www.tuffoot.com/about/humans.htm
That sounds like some stuff I used to put on my bird dogs' feet called Copper-tox. Really toughened the dogs' feet up. Never thought about putting it on my feet, but if it works as well as it does on a dog, cool.
Dominus_Potior
04-12-2010, 03:05
Have any of yall tried this formula called Tuff Foot?
Just ordered this stuff online, it claims to toughen the sskin tissue on your feet and even help prevent athletes foot. Ill give my verdict on the product after using it a week, before a 10 mile ruck.
http://www.tuffoot.com/about/humans.htm
I just ordered some too. Will post again after I recieve and use for a couple weeks.
DP out.
Grenzer29
04-12-2010, 14:56
I used Tuff Foot and it worked all right. The problem was after so much abuse done to you feet in the SFAS you get those deep blisters which are very hard to get to. About the only thing you can do is take the pain (which you have to do anyways I guess).
Tuff foot is alright stuff, wouldnt go out of my way to buy it again. It has helped the skin under blisters and where past blisters were to harden up quicker than before but overall Id say the Majors foot prep guide in Get Selected is a more efficient way to have your barking dogs ready for long distance rucks.
I may be splitting hairs here but I'm paying close attention to detail, hah. I love me some Danner boots (they fit me perfectly, with almost no break-in time needed)...
The Danners pictured below are titled 'Danner Winter' which as far as Danner is concerned means Gore Tex + Insulation. I snagged this image from this slideshow (http://www.bragg.army.mil/SORB/text/SFAS%20Outbrief%206%20April%2009.ppt)(.ppt file) earlier in the thread. Thanks to the gentleman who posted that. The file is dated 2009 so I assume it is fairly recent.
While they no longer carry the exact boot pictured, they do carry temperate (http://www.danner.com/product/boots/desert+acadia+men-women+temperate+military+boot.do) and insulated (http://www.danner.com/product/boots/desert+acadia+mn-wmn+400g+insulated+military+boot.do) versions which meet the Army regs and, as far as I can tell, SFAS requirements as well. To be clear, both of these contain gore-tex, and I've read conflicting information about that - the Belleville marked here also has gore-tex, whereas many of the others do not. Obviously I'd love to have gore-tex in my boots, but I sure as shit don't want to be breaking in a new pair during selection because I brought the wrong ones.
Anyone have up-to-date information about this in terms of the 'allowability' of gore-tex as well as any advice on getting the insulated boots over the temperate ones? I find it strange that they list the Danner Winters seeing as insulated boots are, as far as I can tell, really meant for guys who are going to be standing in snow for a bit of time - something I can't imagine happening with regularity at selection.
Thanks a ton for any advice you might have to offer.
The Reaper
04-28-2010, 12:48
I may be splitting hairs here but I'm paying close attention to detail, hah. I love me some Danner boots (they fit me perfectly, with almost no break-in time needed)...
The Danners pictured below are titled 'Danner Winter' which as far as Danner is concerned means Gore Tex + Insulation. I snagged this image from this slideshow (http://www.bragg.army.mil/SORB/text/SFAS%20Outbrief%206%20April%2009.ppt)(.ppt file) earlier in the thread. Thanks to the gentleman who posted that. The file is dated 2009 so I assume it is fairly recent.
While they no longer carry the exact boot pictured, they do carry temperate (http://www.danner.com/product/boots/desert+acadia+men-women+temperate+military+boot.do) and insulated (http://www.danner.com/product/boots/desert+acadia+mn-wmn+400g+insulated+military+boot.do) versions which meet the Army regs and, as far as I can tell, SFAS requirements as well. To be clear, both of these contain gore-tex, and I've read conflicting information about that - the Belleville marked here also has gore-tex, whereas many of the others do not. Obviously I'd love to have gore-tex in my boots, but I sure as shit don't want to be breaking in a new pair during selection because I brought the wrong ones.
Anyone have up-to-date information about this in terms of the 'allowability' of gore-tex as well as any advice on getting the insulated boots over the temperate ones? I find it strange that they list the Danner Winters seeing as insulated boots are, as far as I can tell, really meant for guys who are going to be standing in snow for a bit of time - something I can't imagine happening with regularity at selection.
Thanks a ton for any advice you might have to offer.
You do understand what an issued boot is, do you not?
Did it come from an Army CIF recently?
TR
Reaper,
I get a really great Danner discount so I figured practice-rucking in SFAS-approved gear can't hurt me.
EDIT: Your point does beget an interesting question though - any reason a guy can't have a pair of approved boots shipped to him in between OSUT and pre-selection?
The Reaper
04-28-2010, 14:10
Reaper,
I get a really great Danner discount so I figured practice-rucking in SFAS-approved gear can't hurt me.
EDIT: Your point does beget an interesting question though - any reason a guy can't have a pair of approved boots shipped to him in between OSUT and pre-selection?
IMHO, your time would be better spent searching and reading boot comments and doing PT, rather than looking for a magic carpet.
You might even take a few moments to fill in your profile.
TR
Reaper,
Yep, I've combed through all threads pertaining to feet and boots and have yet to have my specific question answered. As I said in my initial post, I may just be splitting hairs but I'm trying to 'train as I'll fight'. Your initial advice as well as the advce in 'Get Selected' and 'Fixing Your Feet' have been invaluable, so thank you for that. Not looking for a magic carpet at all, but trying to be as accurate as possible. If my question has been answered, please point me in the right direction!
The Reaper
04-28-2010, 20:35
Reaper,
Yep, I've combed through all threads pertaining to feet and boots and have yet to have my specific question answered. As I said in my initial post, I may just be splitting hairs but I'm trying to 'train as I'll fight'. Your initial advice as well as the advce in 'Get Selected' and 'Fixing Your Feet' have been invaluable, so thank you for that. Not looking for a magic carpet at all, but trying to be as accurate as possible. If my question has been answered, please point me in the right direction!
Let's try again.
The boots they issue you at the CIF?
Those will be the issue boots that you should be wearing at SFAS.
Best of luck.
TR
Blitzzz (RIP)
04-28-2010, 21:51
I find all this talk about feet and boots a bit weak. I the importance for maintaining healthy feet and bad fitting boots will not help in that realm.
I have never, other than a blister or two, had any problems with issued boots. I was taught at an early time in my career by some really hard troops, to wet the boots daily for about a week and wear them until they adjusted to your feet. This may sound primitive but has always worked well. You break them in or they break you in....
Just saying all this sounds too much to do about nothing. Good foot hygiene and clean dry socks work wonders.
Blitzzz
After reading every thread on boots, footcare and rucking I could search, and cover to cover of "Get Selected" I have one thing still unclear to me and it's rather nitpicky.
I'm currently in the 'toughening phase' of my ruck training, so I'm currently going sockless and rucking until I get hotspots, stopping treating and then carrying on. I follow the foot routine outlined in Get Selected as well and also purchased some Superfeet insoles which are amazing to say the least. I never would have known about these techniques without this forum and appreciate it all.
on to my question:
Would it be stupid to even attempt going sockless at SFAS? I know from thread searching the STAR course WILL send you through swamps/draws fairly regularly and your feet WILL get wet. I swear I saw a few different posts from QPs on here that mentioned their SFAS/QCs sockless and it was fine for them but I have also been told going sockless actually speeds up trenchfoot in wet conditions. That seems very counter productive.
I guess my main question is when I switch from the toughening to the distance/time training would it be prudent to use the wool socks again, or continue going sockless if it is of no hindrance to my time/distance?
Thank you gentlemen in advance for any input.
*ducks and covers in case I missed anything during my searches*
Dozer523
04-28-2010, 22:52
Would it be stupid to even attempt going sockless at SFAS? very.;)
Come on. If you want tough feet you can always go the Zulu Warrior route and dance all night barefoot in a briar patch. Me? No thanks. Tough and comfortable do not have to be mutually exclusive.
I'm a FOG* so my idea of comfortable is issue socks. Two pair. Turn the pair closest to my feet inside out so the smooth side is against my skin. Wear the second pair outside-out cuz I like to think that gives me more cushion on the sole of my feet. (That is probably just in my head but, I believe in it, so. . . ) * I'm also cheap.
Roger that, appreciate the tip too.
Okay, so after calling around I got the answer to my above questions. For fear of suffering Reaper's wrath, PM me if you want the details.
On another note, an interesting article here (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/fashion/22FITNESS.html) about ultra-runners and how they deal with their toenails - they just remove them. I first read about this in Born to Run (http://www.amazon.com/Born-Run-Hidden-Superathletes-Greatest/dp/0307266303/) which is a great read for anyone interested in endurance and the limits of the human body.
ZonieDiver
05-06-2010, 12:21
Okay, so after calling around I got the answer to my above questions. For fear of suffering Reaper's wrath, PM me if you want the details.
On another note, an interesting article here (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/fashion/22FITNESS.html) about ultra-runners and how they deal with their toenails - they just remove them. I first read about this in Born to Run (http://www.amazon.com/Born-Run-Hidden-Superathletes-Greatest/dp/0307266303/) which is a great read for anyone interested in endurance and the limits of the human body.
Yeah, God couldn't have known what he was doing when he issued us all toenails! :D
Infantry soldiers for eons have had toenails, I think...
Ultra-marathoners are "sick puppies"! (Sorry to any U-M's here I may have offended, but if you are... you know you are!)
alright4u
05-06-2010, 21:06
Damn my ole dogs must of been tough!! I' can't recall any problems with my feet or boots. My first issue boot were the boots with the buckles around the calf's,rough leather bottoms. The only problem with then were they were a BITCH to shine.
I always found boots laced tight,clean socks worked for me.
BMT
FOG
Brown boots with the buckles. Weren't those about three straps a side? My old man had them from WWII. Add the old Ike jacket, and browen shoes. Hell, I thought Curly Trabue was the oldest man in C-5/CCS?
Have any of yall tried this formula called Tuff Foot?
Just ordered this stuff online, it claims to toughen the skin tissue on your feet and even help prevent athletes foot. Ill give my verdict on the product after using it a week, before a 10 mile ruck.
http://www.tuffoot.com/about/humans.htm
I have used this product for total of 4 weeks rucking 3x/week 5-9 miles. For me, it speeds healing of my feet after a ruck. It also has assisted in healing the raw spots across my kidneys and arm pits.
If there is interest, I will report back in 3-4 weeks when I have increased mileage significantly.
Also a warning, if you have raw skin it burns when applied but goes away fast, just be ready.
GTR
I came across this book titled "SELECTED," and they were suggesting that one should get rid of calluses by filing them and applying lotion to one's feet for "soft and supple skin." I was hoping for some feedback about this. It is BS, or would having baby-soft feet actually be beneficial for rucking?
Highwayman
07-30-2010, 18:45
I came across this book titled "SELECTED," and they were suggesting that one should get rid of calluses by filing them and applying lotion to one's feet for "soft and supple skin." I was hoping for some feedback about this. It is BS, or would having baby-soft feet actually be beneficial for rucking?
Just follow the advice TR has laid out for us on the first page of this post.
Reading through and through all the advice has been extremely potent. On the topic of feet I would just like to add something I attempted that seemed to work well. I'm sure most are aware but to post information for others who may not know, as I had not recently, figured appropriate. After two weeks of two-a-day training I tried the epsom salt/alcohol bath for my feet and ankles (body as well) soaked for 15 minutes. The next morning my feet had a renewed strength and most soreness had dissipated. I'm by no means an expert with this but would like to see if others too had the same results? Any help is thanked much, charlie mic.
I tried the epsom salt/alcohol bath for my feet and ankles (body as well) soaked for 15 minutes. The next morning my feet had a renewed strength and most soreness had dissipated. I'm by no means an expert with this but would like to see if others too had the same results?
Yup, old grandma Sara would say the same thing.
greenberetTFS
05-26-2011, 07:45
Brown boots with the buckles. Weren't those about three straps a side? My old man had them from WWII. Add the old Ike jacket, and browen shoes. Hell, I thought Curly Trabue was the oldest man in C-5/CCS?
Didn't get the buckles on my brown shoes,but those boots weren't very comfortable at all (1954)......... After basic when I was sent to Bragg for my AIT in C Co,505 PIR the guys told me to ditch the boots and get the Cocoran brand jump boots in cordovan( brown or black colors were not allowed)........I wore them in jump school,SFTG and never had a problem with them being able to be worn without approval in any Airborne outfit I served in.................I realize that was quite a few years ago but I really don't understand all this BS about what boots I should be wearing,didn't have them modified(?)just wore them like I got'em .......:rolleyes::eek::mad:
Big Teddy :munchin
Didn't get the buckles on my brown shoes,but those boots weren't very comfortable at all (1954)......... After basic when I was sent to Bragg for my AIT in C Co,505 PIR the guys told me to ditch the boots and get the Cocoran brand jump boots in cordovan( brown or black colors were not allowed)........I wore them in jump school,SFTG and never had a problem with them being able to be worn without approval in any Airborne outfit I served in.................I realize that was quite a few years ago but I really don't understand all this BS about what boots I should be wearing,didn't have them modified(?)just wore them like I got'em .......:rolleyes::eek::mad:
Big Teddy :munchin
In recent SFAS classes they have allowed pretty much any boot. I think the only thing they were concerned with was that the height of the boot was to regulation and it was the right color. Things change every class though. Even though I wore my Nikes to SFAS (11-08) I was sure to bring a couple pairs of my old trusty deserts just in case. I ended up putting one pair with the rest of my personal gear and keeping one pair out as your boots get wet just about every day and it is nice to have 3 pair available.
For what it's worth to all those SF prospects out there, I have been training for months using Army issue Altamas with no insoles or special work done to them and have not had a problem, minus a blister or two. My ruck times are down in the high 13's to low 14's. I just recently bought Sole footbeds and would highly recommend them...AFTER you toughen your feet using what the Army has given you. IMHO, it's better to bust your a$$, work through the pain, and earn what you get than to spend all your time on here digging for another way to make it hurt less when it happens. As a friend of mine once told me, You can't train for a kick in the balls and the weight only gets heavier as you go.
airbornediver
07-29-2011, 15:31
I ruck 3x per week, started out at 3 miles and each week adding a mile. I'm breaking in my feet and my boots. I have 2 pair of Altama boots, both have the SOPC special modifications to them and alternate the pairs. One pair gives me no issues, I honestly feel like I can ruck all day in them, the other pair always feels good till about mile 2. Then on my right heel, the hotspot comes and if I don't notice it quick enough, the blister appears.
Whenever I get the blister, I wear flip-flops until I ruck again (typically a day break between rucking). I do wear moleskin, but the boot still digs into my blister that's there. Here's my question, anyone have a good guess as to why the one pair always gives me a blister starting around mile 2? Should I have those blister causing pair of boots looked at?
Blind Eye
02-29-2012, 08:56
http://www.bragg.army.mil/sorb/SELECTED_VIDEOS.htm
Has anyone watched the foot care video on this page?
It's the same overview that's in the "SELECTED" book by Josh Henkin. The guy on there explains how "soft, supple and healthy skin, is your secret to not encountering foot problems durring the selection and assessment course".
He said this right after talking about about filing down calluses completely, and applying lotion to your feet.
I have heard this train of thought before about foot care, but I tend to believe the conventional beliefs most of you here stand by with toughening feet instead. I do think there's a limit, like having overly thick calluses in an area (that could tear off).
My question is, is the whole idea of "soft and supple" just to prevent blisters under calluses, or is there more to it?
Because it just seems to me with "soft supple" feet you would be getting blisters at a much faster rate as opposed to toughend feet. I understand it's harder to treat a blister under a tough layer of skin. That just doesn't seem like a good enough reason to prepare your feet in such a manner. I think I would rather feel blisters coming on half way through the course and at that point start to apply mole skin and tape instead of having issues and taping from day 1.
This may sound like a really dumb question (I apologize if it is and fully expect to get my ass chewed out) but what about adding short barefoot runs into your prep for bootcamp and selection? I started walking to and from campus barefoot last semester, and then eased into running (I am up to about 2-3 miles). Would the callouses you build from running (which would be solely on the soles of your feet) in addition to the callouses from the approved boots and rucking be sufficient foot prep along with the advice from Get Selected?
Wow. I didn't mean to be a thread killer. It was not my intention to insinuate that the ability to think critically was in any way desired. Why be shy? Individual initiative, ability to do a METT-T analysis on the situation and act accordingly in the absence of specific guidence, are no longer qualities that we need. Don't worry about it.
My advice is to rest and spend more time looking for info on the very latest selection class. Do not risk over training. Sleep a lot and eat as much as you can. Drink a lot of beer. Beer has a lot of carbohydrates. You will need those at selection. Do not do any rucking as it will make your feet and your shoulders tired. If you must ruck, just go once around the block twice a week. That was good enough for me, so you should be Good to Go.
ABC, Don't feel bad. I received a PM concerning a post of mine earlier on this thread and had the same thing happen. Apparently asking one to give personal analysis or thought on something is a bygone sport.:boohoo
ABC, Don't feel bad. I received a PM concerning a post of mine earlier on this thread and had the same thing happen. Apparently asking one to give personal analysis or thought on something is a bygone sport.:boohoo
Trust me, i'm not sitting around waiting for analysis.
Just between us, I'm also not really sorry. And I don't really feel bad if my comment killed this thread for a while or not. It will rise from the dead, no question about it. However, I'm not really sure why.
However since I'm in a good mood, I see that airborne driver has an unanswered question about his second pair of boots. Maybe I can help...
airbornedriver -
- DO NOT have those boots looked at. DO NOT buy another pair. DO NOT continue to work to build a calous on that foot at that spot. What I would do would be to get a calendar and set up a set schedule to rotate your boots. On those days when you wear the boots that give you blisters after 2 miles, ruck 1.99 miles and stop. Never, ever do more than that. OR, stop and put a flip flop on that foot and drive on and complete the distance you would have if it wasn't for the fact that it was your "bad boot" day. The bonus to this COA is that you will build extra calouses inbetween your toes on that foot due to the flip flop. Now, this will have you walking lopsided and promote musculoskeletal injuries, and more importantly, make you look like an imbicile, but hey, whatever.
I suppose one other COA would be to stop and put on your boot from your "good" pair and finish up, but then you'd have to switch and wear your "bad boot" for part of your "good boots" day to even out the wear. Man, what a mess that would be....unless someone has created an app to keep it all straight. but without iPads or iPhones allowed at selection, I don't think that this COA would be very good.
Good luck!
Peregrino
03-13-2012, 18:27
However since I'm in a good mood, I see that airborne driver has an unanswered question about his second pair of boots. Maybe I can help... ---------------- Good luck!
STOP! You're hurting me! (You keep dynamiting the fish in the bathtub and you're going to have to clean up the mess by yourself. NTM - It isn't sporting. :p)
STOP! You're hurting me! (You keep dynamiting the fish in the bathtub and you're going to have to clean up the mess by yourself. NTM - It isn't sporting. :p)
Ok ok ok.
I think i need to start a thread on "HANDS, you Can't Carry Anything or Pleasure Yourself Without Them!" ... Not that I need the advise for selection, but simply to discuss training? Maybe in the PT section?.
I've always wondered if thethe time spent learning how to do backwards walking handstands on a bed of hot coals be a good training method to prevent blisters during SFAS or time spend on deployment...or...
nevermind. :p
I'll stop now.
One thing you don't want to get is a lisfranc dislocation.
I swear that's prolly the worst injury I ever sustained. Never have completely healed from it.
ABC 123: Was that reply of analysis directed at me? I apologize for not being able to get online for the past week. The purpose for my question is that I have searched different forums and have heard mixed reviews on this type of training from doctors and avid runners, also from people who hike all the time. For me personally I have found that my ankles have gotten stronger and more flexible, reducing the risk of rolling. My feet have built pretty thick callouses on the bottom of my feet from trying this out. All I wanted to know was if a QP has tried this type of training and if so what their thoughts were on it.
Here is an article on barefoot running:
http://www.sportsci.org/jour/0103/mw.htm
Also after further reading your comments I fully understand where you are coming from, a bunch of wannabes trying to leech out as much information from you guys (the QPs) without using the search feature or doing any research. Sir, to be completely honest I just wanted to pose a question that allowed for further discussion. If you feel that the question posed is too obvious or that it further hinders the discussion of the topic then I will gladly remove it.
If you feel that the question posed is too obvious or that it further hinders the discussion of the topic then I will gladly remove it.
This is a valuable lesson in "some things once done, can't be undone"--a concept often lost on the digital media generation.
Sonofagunny
04-24-2012, 03:26
CIF at many Basic Training Posts seems to be full of sick individuals who enjoy giving young soldiers poor fitting shoes and boots. My experience was receiving size 10.5 running shoes and size 10W boots. I was recently fitted by a professional, and I am more like a size 13 all around, although size 11.5W boots fit nicely. After purchasing the new footwear, I have been relieved of all shin splint problems.
My point... The boots issued to you in basic are not the only boots you can take to SFAS. Clothing and Sales in the PX will sell nice new Basic Issue Boots in the size you actually need. I am currently breaking mine in with a few 8 mile rucks per week.
Thanks for the post! I will indeed use this advice for my advantage as I am right now suffering a mild inflammation in my plantar fascia. When I walk it feels like I am stepping on dozens of lego blocks.
The Reaper
04-24-2012, 16:23
CIF at many Basic Training Posts seems to be full of sick individuals who enjoy giving young soldiers poor fitting shoes and boots. My experience was receiving size 10.5 running shoes and size 10W boots. I was recently fitted by a professional, and I am more like a size 13 all around, although size 11.5W boots fit nicely. After purchasing the new footwear, I have been relieved of all shin splint problems.
My point... The boots issued to you in basic are not the only boots you can take to SFAS. Clothing and Sales in the PX will sell nice new Basic Issue Boots in the size you actually need. I am currently breaking mine in with a few 8 mile rucks per week.
The MCSS will also sell you plenty of boots that are not issued or authorized for wear at SFAS.
How about saving the advice till you have actually been accepted and successfully completed SFAS?
TR
Scamilton
04-25-2012, 22:48
There is no longer a specific list of boots that are authorized for wear at SFAS. As long as they fall within AR 670-1 standards, they are acceptable for wear. Of course, this could change again at any time. As far as I know this change was made recently because I had two different packing lists given to me within 3 months. Majority of the guys in my class of 07-12 wore the Rocky C4 trainers and Nike SFBs.
Either way, a good set of insoles go a long way for issued boots if you don't have flat feet. I have really high arches. So, I bought a set of Sole brand insoles that are capable of being custom molded after a short amount of time in the oven. Made my issued boots feel like a completely different boot. Did the same for my Nike SFBs and I had no feet issues at SFAS until the last couple of days of team week.
Damocles
04-26-2012, 12:44
Great topic, thanks OP.
I bought John Vonhof's "Fixing Your Feet" several months ago. 358 pages of excellent material on everything from foot and footwear basics and fit, injury/blister prevention techniques and ongoing injury treatment. Also provides great resources for follow up.
Sonofagunny
07-19-2012, 16:02
Can anyone else verify Scamilton's above statement. I hear this from my recruiter, I hear this here, I've almost accepted it as truth. I intend to bring one set of issue boots and one set of Danners, if we are allowed non-issue boots.
mud slinger
07-19-2012, 18:11
I just completed the June Class 09-12 and I brought one pair of Nikes one pair of Rocky Sv2's and one issued pair. Both the Nikes and Rockies were allowed.
jurisdoctor
07-22-2012, 18:16
Also class 09-12. As long are your boots can be worn with an Army uniform they are allowed. I wore Nikes the whole time.
I'm surprised the nike's held up in sfas. I have two pairs of bellevilles and a pair of oakleys but I don't like the oakleys.