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Warrior-Mentor
04-23-2006, 14:17
Molecular Secret of Special Forces toughness
11:06 18 February 2003
NewScientist.com news service
Shaoni Bhattacharya, Denver

Special Forces soldiers have neurological differences that make them more resilient to post-traumatic stress disorder than the average soldier, say researchers.

A study of soldiers based at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, found that Green Berets were much less likely to suffer symptoms of PTSD after a week of gruelling exercises that simulated being captured and interrogated by the enemy.

The elite soldiers produced more of a molecule called neuropeptide Y in their blood than regular soldiers. This molecule is generated by the body to help calm the brain in times of extreme stress, says Matt Friedmann, director of the US National Center for PTSD in Connecticut, which carried out the research.

"The Special Forces types had a greater capacity for mobilising neuropeptide Y than ordinary soldiers, and they were also able to sustain it for longer periods," he told a session on PTSD at the American Association for the Advancement of Science's annual conference in Denver, Colorado. Furthermore, neuropeptide Y in Special Forces personnel returned to normal levels within 24 hours, whereas it dipped below normal in the others.

Bottle it
The greater the capacity to mobilise neuropeptide Y, the lower the likelihood of PTSD, says Friedmann. "If we could bottle this, or if we could train people to mobilise their own neuropeptide Y, that would be primary prevention for PTSD - a very exciting approach," he says.

Although the work has been going on for several years, the researchers are still uncertain whether the Green Berets' enhanced capacity to endure trauma was genetic or had been acquired through Special Forces training.

Another study discussed in the conference session revealed the extent of PTSD in the general population, following the terrorist attacks of September 11. The new work by researchers from the New York Academy of Medicine shows that 7.5 per cent of New Yorkers had PTSD symptoms in the 30 days after the attack, but that this dropped to 0.6 per cent nine months after.

The study also showed those people who lost a family member or friend were just as likely as those who did not to recover from PTSD. The researchers found that age, employment status and life stressors were more important factors in determining recovery.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3402

Warrior-Mentor
04-23-2006, 14:23
The study compared SF Soldiers against other soldiers in SERE, including Rangers, aviators, etc.

The question is, were the SF guys some how conditioned to better handle the stress through training or were they biologically superior, as the article suggests.

Perhaps the "stress inoculation" we used throughout our training (crawl, walk, run methodology) better prepared them for what to expect and/or how to handle stress - just as a runner can condition himself to handle longer distances at a faster pace and recover from them quicker.

Somehow, I suspect it's a combination of the two...conditioning (training) and biology. Biologically, as we are drawn to this type of environment/work. Someone naturally adverse to risk (a librarian?) would take much longer to build up to that level, just as a couch potato would take much longer to get into shape.

Roguish Lawyer
04-23-2006, 14:28
The question is, were the SF guys some how conditioned to better handle the stress through training or were they biologically superior, as the article suggests.

I was just about to post the same question, but you beat me to it.

Pete
04-23-2006, 14:57
Man, I hate it when they start messing with our heads and claim it's just a chemical.

Next thing ya' know all the herb stores will have bottles of "Green Beret" pills.

And "NO" you young guys, they will "NOT" help you get through SFAS.

Pete

Kyobanim
04-23-2006, 16:06
And "NO" you young guys, they will "NOT" help you get through SFAS.


LMAO! :D

SF18C
04-23-2006, 16:23
Next thing ya' know all the herb stores will have bottles of "Green Beret" pills.


That's hilarous!

But I guess if you break it down to the most basic element those AAA personalities might just have a slightly different chemical makeup than other folks. But I think there is a lot of heart and soul that can't be "analyzed" to define the make a QP!

Warrior-Mentor
04-23-2006, 22:16
Next thing ya' know all the herb stores will have bottles of "Green Beret" pills.


I thought that's what the Green M&Ms were for...wait no, that was something else! :D

Sten
04-24-2006, 05:44
You guys are like the Jedi.

Team Sergeant
04-24-2006, 07:54
You guys are like the Jedi.

We were the ones that sent an MTT (Mobile Training Team) to teach the Jedi. That was centuries ago. (I think QRQ30 was on that mission......)

TS

Spartan359
04-24-2006, 10:20
We were the ones that sent an MTT (Mobile Training Team) to teach the Jedi. That was centuries ago. (I think QRQ30 was on that mission......)

TS


Ouch! :D

QRQ 30
04-24-2006, 10:59
We were the ones that sent an MTT (Mobile Training Team) to teach the Jedi. That was centuries ago. (I think QRQ30 was on that mission......)

TS

:D :D The answer is in the anatomy not the biology -- bigger balls and morebrains!!:lifter

12B4S
04-26-2006, 23:18
.

12B4S
04-26-2006, 23:32
Dammit!!!! Some 6, 8 or so months ago, I posted a similar article, maybe the same study. There were replies from Med folks and all, that said the brainwave stuff, chemicals, electricity was BS.
OK
There was another reason I posted that article. I didn't follow up on it, cause I hate to type. The reason wasn't about brainwave nuero stuff. It was about mindset!

Great!, I now I have to go search some more.

Surgicalcric
04-27-2006, 04:42
...we used throughout our training (crawl, walk, run methodology)...

I dont believe the instructors at JSOMT-C (now Special Warfare Medical Goup (A)) got that memo... :D

Crip

Guy
04-27-2006, 11:05
They need to do a study on our "sense of humor!"

That screws up a bunch of people...LOL:D

Take care.

sf-doc
05-18-2006, 10:48
They need to do a study on our "sense of humor!"

That screws up a bunch of people...LOL:D

Take care.

Will that be the little blue M&M? opps, no that was something else too! ;)

Doc

longrange1947
05-18-2006, 18:13
This is really nothing new, as there is another book titled "Men, Stress and Viet Nam" that came to a similar conclusion. It is a small book and follows a one year study where they went from location to location taking blood and urine samples. They had just created a repeatable, confimed, matix of how the human body reacts to stress. They then made the mistake fo going to an A Camp for a study and then had to change all of their "confirmed data". Seems that the guys on the camp reacted a tad differently.

I will have to dig into my old library adn see fi I can find that book. Very interesting read and it is a quick read. I am sure some of the other guys will have read it.

x SF med
05-19-2006, 07:24
I'm not sure if I fully buy the 'biologically different' argument. It kind of brings up the whole controlled breeding thing in my mind, or the Dorsai argument. I think there is a difference in mentality more than anything else, a lot of the muscleheads didn't make it through prephase, or phase 1 (old system), because they were weak in character, mind, and focus; while skinny little runts with heart, and a desire to prove to themselves that they could accomplish what the average soldier would never even dream, overcame the obstacles and earned the beret / flash / tab.

Is it biology or is it heart / mind / character - I'll go with the latter 3, how many would agree?

3dfxMM
05-19-2006, 08:04
Can you say with certainty that biology isn't responsible for the differences in the latter 3? :)

x SF med
05-19-2006, 08:47
Is character biological or learned? I believe it is learned.
Intelligence is part both.
Desire to prove to oneself, is inherent in a person, whether it is truly biological, I plead ignorance (remember ignorance impies choice, I have not looked into it, and therefore have not chosen to know)

longrange1947
05-19-2006, 13:03
So is the ability to run better than others, ie top world class sprinter, biological or learned. I say biological and, yes, the individual is superior in running to me. I do not see it as a slam, put down of politically incorrect observation. I see it as fact.

The same can be said of the ability to control certain dody functions that allow a higher mental survival rate than others. Are they superior to the others? Yes in that area, but they are still inferior to those tht can sprint faster.

This BS phobia of declaring something superior because it may hurt someone's feelings is poppy cock. Each indiividual has superior and inferior abilites and traits, it really is what makes the world go round.

If this has upset some folk then good, it needs to be brought out to the light that humans are diverse and some can do some things bettter than others and much of has to do with genes, not race, not religion, just plain old building block genes. :munchin

x SF med
05-19-2006, 13:16
Longrange-
I was not arguing that SF Soldiers are not better than the average joe -we most certainly are - I was arguing the point that it can be dissected in one way - there are myriad biological, mental, social, emotional, and character differences between us and most people. But how is this difference to be measured except by those who have been there, and understand what is being asked of the candidates? We know the difference, a test does not. some of the best scoring candidates, test wise, still bolo, nothing against them, they are outstanding soldiers - just not SF. Remember that the last things in the Q are evals (or at least they were) you aren't a grad unless the instructors and your peers agree you are.

NousDefionsDoc
05-19-2006, 14:00
It's the hat.

Jack Moroney (RIP)
05-19-2006, 14:23
Longrange-
I was not arguing that SF Soldiers are not better than the average joe -we most certainly are - .

For what I have seen over the years it is not so much of being better than the average joe but being better suited for SF. SF requires a commitment and you can only get a commitment to any organization when those qualities, aspects, performance standards, and goals that make up the organization mesh completely with the qualities, aspects, performance standards and goals of the individual. Unquestionably there is a biological component that enables performance standards to be met but there are also physchological and learned components. Whatever it is folks have been trying to bottle it since the inception of the program and we have yet to discover the "secret formula". There is no SF template. This business is, after all, nothing like making corn flakes but all about producing the best soldiers with whom I have ever had the priviledge to work.

Jack Moroney-biologically hampered, psychologically flawed and learning impaired I served in the shadows cast by many in whom I will forever be in awe.

x SF med
05-20-2006, 00:06
COL M-
Not that I believe:
Jack Moroney-biologically hampered, psychologically flawed and learning impaired
at all.

But AMEN to:
I served in the shadows cast by many in whom I will forever be in awe.

MSG Gary Gordon is one of them. (he was an E6p - E7 when I served with him)

12B4S
05-22-2006, 01:14
Being as PC impaired as I am. In more than one way. :D I found it!! NO, not that. Here..........

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6291

Back then. I brought this up, more for another reason. I have NO clue about nueropeptide Y things.

Some of the posts then and now, touch on along the lines of what I had in mind.

Forget the nuerological, brain wave crap.

What about, the mind, heart, soul, the drive, desire, motivation.....? Can keep typing adjectives. Put it simple. The mind set!

The mind controls the body and drives it where one never thought possible. In some of the responses to this thread and to that older one, you can see some of that. The Colonel, above this post hit on it, so did Longrange.

Start when you were a kid. Did you take chances? Could you sit still for long? Did dumbasses piss you off, even if you were only 4 and up?

What stupid things did you do as a kid? Things, that you should have not even gotten to the age of graduating Grade school, let alone HS. Things that make you dead.

Also. even as a youngster and you were 'pushing the envelope'. Did you feel then, that you had thought it through, to the best of your know nothing/experience mind? To you? No matter what age, from there on up? Did you feel it as a 'calculated risk' to the best experience and knowledge you had, at whatever age?

LOL..... so did NDD. To an extent. So did Guy. I'm still misunderstood and tired of fighting. Try to be nice and somehow, someone takes it wrong. I dunno. ;)

longtab
05-22-2006, 23:29
What stupid things did you do as a kid? Things, that you should have not even gotten to the age of graduating Grade school, let alone HS. Things that make you dead.
Ahh yes the 4 cinder block bike ramps as a second grader... numerous scars, bumps, and bruises. A sort of PRE-selection as it were.

All of my fellow second graders... never made it past three cinder blocks high. Heck maybe it was the hair!

12B4S
05-23-2006, 00:42
LOL Longtab. Yeah. That kind of stuff. Biological/mental/feeling the rush of adrenalin. I did that stuff allllllllll the time as a kid and growing up. Of course, I had nooooooooo idea what an adrenalin rush was, nor what adrenalin was. I just felt and liked it.

Across the street from the house was a Forest Preserve. In the winters, we would all head over there, when it seemed like the water had frozen over. Also called the Lagoons. This was a project that was dug by hand to put men to work during the depression. Anyway, there was an island out there, that we could never get to. Then and now, you do not swim in that water. Sometimes the ice wasn't all that solid. I NEEDED to get to that island! There was an old comic strip in the newspaper back then called ' Jim Trails' I believe. I learned from one of those, if you lay down on ice covered water, your weight is distributed. I was the only kid that tried. Made it by the way. Still hear the crackling sounds of the ice in my head. :)

That kinda crap, I continued to do growing up and into SF, during SF and to some extent now. HM..... calculated risk.......

x SF med
05-23-2006, 10:40
AHHHH, the idiocy of youth - as preparation for SF - never really thought about it, but yes - the bike jumps, the dirt bomb fights, running around the wetlands preserve (swamp), woods, and swimming in the winter if the air temp hit 65, climbing sand cliffs, climbing trees - building field expedient rafts from flotsam... backpacking the Appalachian trail at 12, sialing as often as possible, and being on a war canoe team

12B4S
05-23-2006, 15:12
Yeah, x_sf_med. Isn't that the truth? I figured by all rights, I should have been dead, before I got to SF. Hmmmmmm, just calculated risks. :D

x SF med
05-24-2006, 08:32
12B
I probably should have been dead by 12 - but the universe had other plans - Bob Howard, Nick Rowe, and Bo(sr & jr) Gritz made me want to die when going through the "coarse" (intentional sp. error) - in order to attone for my errors as a child.... and teenager... and college student.... oh, hell I'm doomed.

rwt_bkk
05-25-2006, 18:47
One thing I used to use when expalining SF to outsiders. IT'S THE MIND!

I always told them physically I didn't find the training that challenging (I grew up in Alaska. Sheep hunting, moose hunting, fighting forest fires.)

But I tell people that SF wanted a "near criminal" mind that could be controlled and that the body be in good enough shape to deliver the mind to the target!

After playing the "Ultimate Chess Game" for a while with the NVA counter recon folks, I can still say "IT IS THE MIND" but being able to carry 120 lbs of gear helped too...

Jack Moroney (RIP)
05-25-2006, 19:06
but being able to carry 120 lbs of gear helped too...

That's 120lbs of light weight gear:D

x SF med
05-26-2006, 08:25
High speed lightweight low drag gear - all in the TOE, some of it never used, unless you leave it out of the ruck.... murphy strikes again ... never thought I'd need that [insert common item left out of ruck] in the [insert season]

12B4S
05-26-2006, 22:59
Ya mean like your parka on a seven to ten day trek on XC skis across some countrie's Alps? ;) Who needs a parka. All you have to do... is volunteer to break trail.

Besides, One needs room in his ruck for beer and wine. We loved hot Gluhwein out there. The spice packs and cinnamon didn't way all that much. Alllllll those bottles did though. The silver lining was...... everyday, the ruck was a bit lighter. :D

12B4S
05-26-2006, 23:43
One thing I used to use when expalining SF to outsiders. IT'S THE MIND!

I always told them physically I didn't find the training that challenging (I grew up in Alaska. Sheep hunting, moose hunting, fighting forest fires.)

But I tell people that SF wanted a "near criminal" mind that could be controlled and that the body be in good enough shape to deliver the mind to the target!

After playing the "Ultimate Chess Game" for a while with the NVA counter recon folks, I can still say "IT IS THE MIND" but being able to carry 120 lbs of gear helped too...
Agreed!!! That is always what I have told people and several times out here in the various threads. I always figured, it was what got me through.

Think back, to just Phase 1. For some of us that is a long way back. ;) I remember guys dropping out. Could have been the runs, could have been anything. Land nav. What I remember most was on the obstacle course.

I went through toward the end of the summer in 1969. It was hot, humid, miserable. The cadre told us as we prepared to run the course, that we would be the first class through the COMPLETED course. I guess, the class before us ran it, but it wasn't completed at the time. OH joy!!!!!!

We were all assigned a number. Thing was, the instructors would open one of the flaps on our fatigue shirts and write the number inside the flap with something like yellow magic marker and button it. As this was being done. One instructor was explaining, with a combination... serious,evil, I'm gonna enjoy this shit look and grin. ;) Basically. The reason for writing that number under the pocket flaps as he explained, was this. If and or when you get through this obstacle course, you won't even remember your name, let alone a number. :eek: Looking around, one could easily spot the three to four meat wagons waiting for customers. Sort of gave you the impression, this isn't going to be good at all. Ugh...

We were already soaked with sweat. It was around 90 degrees and about the same humidity. then, off we went.

On that first run through the course, I saw guys quit. Saw guys to afraid to negotiate some of the obstacles. The 'Tables' sucked. ;) Saw guys pass out. helped a few guys that just seem to give up, somewhere up on some obstacle. Thing I'm getting at is this.

A good majority of the guys that quit, passed out or froze on some obstacle, looked like they were born in Gold's Gym and have been working out since thier umbillical cord was cut. I was 6`4, weighed around 175 lbs. But helping mesomorphs with chisled muscles.

It was the MIND. They could out bench press me to no end. All I could do was walk, hump a ruck, run, do pushups, situps, whatever til the cows came home. But only cause of the mind. I'm not able to define it beyond that.

BTW. The obstacle course as we were told that day.

Get back to this. Some interruptions. Plus I still have to edit this post.

12B4S
05-27-2006, 01:57
From what we were told back then.
Mentioned being the first class through the completed course.
We were also told, how the obstacle course came to be. For SF training, they wanted the best/toughest. In short. That course came to be, because the powers to be, spent a few years touring and examining other Military obstacle courses around the globe. They chewed it all over and came up with Nasty Nick.

Which by the way wasn't what it was called when I went through. I don't believe it had an official name back then. It DID have a slew of unofficial names that we gave it while running it and after. ;) Even if I could remember all of them, I wouldn't be able to type them here.

Another couple recollections. The meat wagons were busy. Quite a few guys in them and next to them on stretchers, getting saline injections and whatever. When those guys came to, whether there or in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. Thing is......... when they regained conciousness, and asked....... well, they were told that they were terminated. Don't know if that term is used today in that situation. Was then.

One more memory.
Those of us that got through that day. This was just the first time. And could remember our name and some of us even our number. :cool: The victory and elation was short lived. After 20 or so minutes of rest, water and salt tabs, The instructors decided that there wasn't enough attrition. Nooooope Just 15 or so. Isn't life grand? We got to run the course AGAIN!!!!!!!!!

Seems they were fairly satisfied after the second run. They about doubled the casualities from the first.

Razor
05-30-2006, 13:27
One or two classes before mine, someone had fallen off one of the high obstacles and hit his head, so we had the pleasure of running the course in bright yellow Hi-Tec helmets. Of course, as there was a smaller number of helmets than students (by about a third), the real pleasure was in taking a sweaty, mud-soaked helmet from a recent finisher and sticking it on your head a few minutes before getting to the start line.

x SF med
05-30-2006, 14:41
Ahh, yes, the obstacle course - I remember a gym rat who completely froze up at the sewer, quit on the spot was afraid of the dark, and afraid of rats.....

12B4S
06-01-2006, 22:45
I've wondered if that section of sewer pipe was still part of the course. As I remember, it was existing from back when Mackall was active. Just conveniently was incorporated into the obstacle course. I remember the first time through, I wanted to go through it. It was nasty hot and humid, figured it would be great to be in some shade. ;) Yeah, it was shady, but the air was nasty foul and hot. The guy or guys in front of me, just weren't going fast enough. Once in there, I changed my mind and thought it was better to breath the topside thick air. :)

After seeing Razor's post, I realized at least we didn't have to wear those helmets.......

x SF med
06-02-2006, 07:10
Ahh, yes Camp MacKall in the summer - got gigged for falling asleep in a class, one of the ones with the door closed in August in a Quonset, at perfect parade rest... wasn't that supposed to keep me awake. SFC K gigged me 5 but gave me 10, because I didn't fall over or snore. Later that day, got in to a rather heated discussion with MSG S (instructor, a bounced Czech) that left most of the class in a state of confusion... MacKall, where else could you get abused by Maj Howard, LTC Rowe, LTC Gritz and still never quit. I can't remember the name of the river where we did expedient rafts and bridges - the one that never got over 40 degrees - I think my brain froze....

I think I figured out another thing that sets SF soldiers apart - we try to prove things to ourselves, so that we have no need to prove them to others.

SP5IC
06-02-2006, 08:54
All this talk about McCall got me to reminiscing. I was in the 12B Class of 66-4 "The Best of the Worst." I wonder if the plaque is still nailed up in the tree next to our hooches?

Pete
06-02-2006, 10:42
Ahh, yes Camp MacKall in the summer - got gigged for falling asleep in a class, one of the ones with the door closed in August in a Quonset, at perfect parade rest... wasn't that supposed to keep me awake.

I still have my note book from Phase 1 in August 74. In one spot you can see where I was taking notes long hand and the writing scrunchs down to a single line and then drags down in a curve off the page. Must have been after lunch.

Drowning Creek was where the slide for life was. Small boat ops was in Big Muddy Lake.

Pete

12B4S
06-03-2006, 01:47
You guys were just 'checking for holes in your eyelids.' One has to do that now and then. ;)

x SF med
06-05-2006, 08:42
That's it ! Drowning Creek - named because it was so cold that there were several physiological and anatomical changes immediately present once you entered the H20. And Mott Lake was another place that brings back nightmares....

13eme
06-13-2006, 01:57
I am not of the mind to think that the ability to go where others fear to tread is due to neurological differences. I think that in this day and age we, as a species, are trying to be more aware of our own true natures. People are way too sensitive in their disection of what makes others tick. My own experiences saw me step aside from what most would call an 'ordinary life' following a path that few dare to tread. Was this because I have an additional gene that made me seek out this working arena? Not in the slightest. I grew up in orphanages around thew south coast of England. I faced the ultimatum of "get a job or get out" at age 16. I done what most other kids my age were doing, I joined the military. The fact that I had already experienced 16 years of dicipline stood me in stead for fast promotion through the lower NCO ranks. I went places, physically and mentally, which were easily returned from by using my own mental classification system. Realizing what needs to be done at a certain time in order to achieve the right outcome and then having the maturity and mental stability to realize that OK, I'm now back in the 'real world'. Click, readjust.

Some unfortunate souls couldn't make the transition. We'd been through the same training, fought alongside each other but at the end of the day I tend to think its more about ones strength of psyche and mental stability and being able to switch between differing mentality "modes".

My 2c worth.
13eme

CERBERUS
07-13-2006, 00:34
"Although the work has been going on for several years, the researchers are still uncertain whether the Green Berets' enhanced capacity to endure trauma was genetic or had been acquired through Special Forces training."

SF soldiers are on average more physically fit than the average. Which in itself may lead to this phenomena being above average.
Comparing soldiers who have been conditioned to extreme physical and mental stress in training, to soldiers who have not had nearly as much experience is not very useful in my opinion.
I believe that responses to stress can be controlled and learned, within reason.

It would be interesting to see how SF qualified soldiers fair against other groups that volunteer and train for working in hazardous conditions, maybe firefighters or something to that effect.

Maybe use 18X'ers or soldiers slated to attend SFAS and see if there is a correlation in the levels of these chemicals before and after SFAS and subsequent training.

I know that 18 series soldiers are elite and deserve all the respect in the world. If you chalk it up to genetic superiority it takes alot away from those guys who have to work twice as hard to wear the beret.

The science involved in the article does not prove or disprove whether it is an environmental or genetic trait though. I think it is most likely a product of the environment 18 series soldiers subject themselves to, especially considering how the approach used in the study.

I will shut up now and return to trawling for information.

The Reaper
07-13-2006, 07:40
"Although the work has been going on for several years, the researchers are still uncertain whether the Green Berets' enhanced capacity to endure trauma was genetic or had been acquired through Special Forces training."

SF soldiers are on average more physically fit than the average. Which in itself may lead to this phenomena being above average.
Comparing soldiers who have been conditioned to extreme physical and mental stress in training, to soldiers who have not had nearly as much experience is not very useful in my opinion.
I believe that responses to stress can be controlled and learned, within reason.

It would be interesting to see how SF qualified soldiers fair against other groups that volunteer and train for working in hazardous conditions, maybe firefighters or something to that effect.

Maybe use 18X'ers or soldiers slated to attend SFAS and see if there is a correlation in the levels of these chemicals before and after SFAS and subsequent training.

I know that 18 series soldiers are elite and deserve all the respect in the world. If you chalk it up to genetic superiority it takes alot away from those guys who have to work twice as hard to wear the beret.

The science involved in the article does not prove or disprove whether it is an environmental or genetic trait though. I think it is most likely a product of the environment 18 series soldiers subject themselves to, especially considering how the approach used in the study.

I will shut up now and return to trawling for information.

They also tested Rangers, Spec Ops aviators, and other personnel who attended SERE at CMK. The second post on this thread explained that.

They are as fit as most SF personnel.

They did not display the same levels of neuropeptide Y.

TR

18Ddave
07-14-2006, 08:27
About 4 years ago in SOFMSSP there was this Maj [back then] that headed this study. He spoke to our class of his findings. Needless to say its pretty f-ckin cool whether you believe heredity or environment.
One thing I learned and still remember from the 18D course; the body has an unbelievable capacity to adapt to its environment. You walk a lot you get caluses, your in the sun a lot the skin learns to protect itself, there are people you can eat poisonous foods or that whack job in the SW that has envenomed himself with enough rattlesnake venom that it doesn't bother him anymore. Therefore I feel the tough, dangerous training and experiences cause the body to produce this chemical in greater amounts over time.
They should draw the blood of SF wannabes before they start and check the levels of the ones who made it again a couple years later for a more conclusive study.
I feel backgrounds have a part in it too. Most guys I know either; have no siblings, 1st born or are the shining star of a severely dysfunctional family.
In the end I think we have been doing something right all along through out history. Tough realistic training. SF happens to get most of the best and brightest to volunteer. I believe age, tough experiences, and the background the individual comes from make up most the SFers.
dave
Oh, I got a similar question; which came 1st the chicken or the egg?

CERBERUS
07-21-2006, 00:06
"The study compared SF Soldiers against other soldiers in SERE, including Rangers, aviators, etc."

I didn't read that part in the article and I don't know where this information is coming from. Not to mention the article itself was pretty vague but really interesting.

However, assuming that statement is correct and that is the "control group", the results would definitely indicate that training is the source of the neurological response.

If this was an inherited trait or a genetic difference the idea that all of the people who exhibit it would find their way to the SF's instead of the Ranger regiment or an aviator slot is highly unlikely, actually more like preposterous. Although I am not about to attempt to compare these jobs last time I checked Rangers and Pilots on average are pretty high speed. The likelyhood of all these genetically similar people winding up among any one particular group is very unlikely.

I agree with you 18Dave. They should have a better experiment. Also they should look at other factors like you mentioned age, experience, etc... The egg came first. Ever noticed how much the egg looks like a cell. :rolleyes:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question85.htm
Chickens evolved from non-chickens through small changes caused by the mixing of male and female DNA or by mutations to the DNA that produced the zygote. These changes and mutations only have an effect at the point where a new zygote is created. That is, two non-chickens mated and the DNA in their new zygote contained the mutation(s) that produced the first true chicken. That one zygote cell divided to produce the first true chicken.

Prior to that first true chicken zygote, there were only non-chickens. The zygote cell is the only place where DNA mutations could produce a new animal, and the zygote cell is housed in the chicken's egg. So, the egg must have come first.

SB8734
10-09-2011, 14:34
One interesting thing I found:



"Studies of mice and monkeys show that repeated stress — and a high-fat, high-sugar diet — stimulate the release of neuropeptide Y, causing fat to build up in the abdomen. Researchers believe that by manipulating levels of the appetite hormone, they could make fat melt from areas where it was not desired and accumulate at sites where it is needed.[18][19]"

^ Thomas H. Maugh II (July 2, 2007). "Research points to way to eliminate belly fat". Chicago Tribune.
^ Kuo LE, Kitlinska JB, Tilan JU, et al. (July 2007). "Neuropeptide Y acts directly in the periphery on fat tissue and mediates stress-induced obesity and metabolic syndrome". Nat. Med. 13 (7):


Does that correlate to any of your diets: High-fat, high sugar? I'm curious, are SF soldiers more likely to be overweight than non-SF soldiers, or SF include all kinds of body types?

Thanks in advance for your insights.

Dusty
10-09-2011, 15:13
Imma make yall friggin proud'a me!

We must be, because I'm SF and you're non-SF, and your posts naturally repulse me.

Tress
10-09-2011, 15:22
Originally posted by Abrazadereas:

Imma make yall friggin proud'a me!

After having filtered the above through the on-line, idiot, street language translator I now know what he is trying to say.

And I have serious doubts. You learning to write in proper English will surprise me. Maybe you should just settle for that instead of SF training. It is good to have goals, but make them realistic.

Tress

greenberetTFS
10-09-2011, 15:36
After having filtered the above through the on-line, idiot, street language translator I now know what he is trying to say.

And I have serious doubts. You learning to write in proper English will surprise me. Maybe you should just settle for that instead of SF training. It is good to have goals, but make them realistic.

Tress

It's funny how we manage to attract these "odd balls" isn't it?..........:rolleyes:

Speaking about "cojones",that's another reason why we are,who we are.....;)

Big Teddy :munchin

Guy
10-09-2011, 15:36
One interesting thing I found:



"Studies of mice and monkeys show that repeated stress Our education system has run amok!:eek: When mice and/or monkeys start humping like mules, carrying guns, jumping out of planes, speaking foreign languages, paying taxes, and dying for their country, and etc. etc. etc.....the goddamn comparison is retarded!

Stay safe.

mojaveman
10-09-2011, 21:42
A warrior gene?

People who have an inborn aptitude for handling weapons and fighting? People who when put into a threatening and dangerous enviroment just seem to know how to instinctively deal with it? People who are just plain braver and bolder than some others? People who are driven to serve and protect their tribe?

Richard
10-10-2011, 03:59
A warrior gene?

People who have an inborn aptitude for handling weapons and fighting? People who when put into a threatening and dangerous enviroment just seem to know how to instinctively deal with it? People who are just plain braver and bolder than some others? People who are driven to serve and protect their tribe?

By Crom!

Richard :munchin

Dusty
10-10-2011, 04:04
I know that I suck. I still drop things sometimes or forget and that is unacceptable - until I have matured to the point that I am always paying close attention 100% of the time I am nowhere near the level that I'd need to be at. I repulse myself sometimes too, but I don't stop adjusting according to what I learn.

I want a house in the hills and a garden, with a wife, and a son that has a father he can be proud of like I never did. Perhaps I was not born with the caliber needed to do what you do. We'll find out. In any case I will serve in the capacity that I am capable of. I have in my life been very confused at times. Completely clueless even. I've screwed up at times. Qualifying my psychological and physiological capacity would only be desperate until I have been tried and tested. I see that there are those that determine they must grow up and those that avoid the fact until the day they die. I'll grow up. A place amongst men with standards as exacting as yours is my goal, honestly, what other goal is worthy of the one life I know I have to live? What kind of man would avoid placing himself at risk of severe discomfort, injury, death, and even worse, personal failure, when the fact is that he has to live with himself and nothing will ever hurt worse then the sense of not having achieved his potential? How can a man live with himself knowing that some people go to bat for others, and he didn't - though he could have and it was his duty? like I said. I will contribute as I am capable.

Big words, I know. Meaning nothing. It's for actions to mean things. I apologize for setting you guys off by speaking in colloquialism, it's a habit I picked up from reading lots of Mark Twain and etcetera. I know exactly how such presentation must look to you and I had had quite a bit too much to drink on my first day off in a long while. It's no excuse. I should have kept in mind how it would look to you and how little tolerance exists in this situation for such a thing.

I don't expect a hug now. I just wanted to say what I think ought to have been said. It's not a defense. If I am incorrect, I'll eat more sh*t so I learn.

Baby steps.

Utah Bob
10-11-2011, 07:34
Where's Dr. Phil when you need him?:rolleyes:

ZonieDiver
10-11-2011, 09:53
It's funny how we manage to attract these "odd balls" isn't it?..........:rolleyes:

Speaking about "cojones",that's another reason why we are,who we are.....;)

Big Teddy :munchin

Sometimes, "Oddballs" are good! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhJZXOWNdMM

greenberetTFS
10-11-2011, 10:04
Sometimes, "Oddballs" are good! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhJZXOWNdMM

Yeah in his case your right on....................;):D

Big Teddy :munchin

Tress
10-11-2011, 10:20
Originally posted by Abrazadereas:

The entire "pity me" post.

Please tell me that Psyche Evals are required.... :munchin

Tress

greenberetTFS
10-11-2011, 10:22
Tress,

Right on.......................;) :D

Big Teddy :munchin

ZonieDiver
10-11-2011, 11:05
I don't pity myself.

edit: And I wouldn't want you to either. Spare it, just in case the sun was shining really bright this morning and you got a little giddy.

Tread softly, young wannabe-Jedi. The oft-repeated, and more oftenly ignored, advice of "read more, post less" comes to mind.

On second thought: I just waded through all 38 of your posts. I found two of them deleted by moderators. I found this gem of a response to a QP's advice to you -

i feel like qualifying what i know of my personal potential and why i feel that i will succeed would just seem grasping. i didn't ask you for your opinion on me or an evaluation. until i qualify or fail there is nothing that needs to be said on it because whether i succeed or not it won't be because of what anybody said or thought about my chances at it. in any case it will never affect what i have to do, which is constantly work for what i want. like they said at Auschwitz, "work will set you free".

So until i'm ready to ship off, i don't see any point in enumerating my attributes so you can wish me whatever kind of luck you like. i come here to listen primarily. perhaps i will have a question but there aren't many that aren't out there already.

And this response to it from another QP -

Abba - your lack of SA exhibited in your intro started this and your continued failure to understand the 'character' of this BB is obvious with this second post. It has become tiring; if y'all wanna chat any further about this, take it to PM - this is the Intro thread. Do not post again in this thread. Richard

You were advised some time ago to dial up your SA. Do it. Now. You have been advised to improve your mode of communication - punctuation, grammar, sentence structure. Do it. Now.

Your lightly packed rucksack could very soon find its way to the hall.

Dusty
10-11-2011, 11:39
Where's Dr. Phil when you need him?:rolleyes:

I don't know, but The Reaper's gonna award this guy an Expert Shoveller's Badge pretty quick...

ZonieDiver
10-11-2011, 11:44
I don't know, but The Reaper's gonna award this guy an Expert Shoveller's Badge pretty quick...

:D Can one of our graphically-talented QPs come up with one of those?!? It could be the award given prior to the rucksack being placed in the hall!

Pete
10-11-2011, 11:51
This is an old thread from years back and mentioned a study that had been going on for a few years.

Now - I'm not a Doc but I have put a thinking cap on a time or three.

Sampling of enlistees, sampling of Airborne volunteers, sampling of SFAS vols and grads and at the very end sampling of the SFQC grads.

That would answer the "Big" question.

Looks as if somebody has got on the Federal Grant Gravy Train and will ride it for all they got.

1stindoor
10-11-2011, 13:55
:D Can one of our graphically-talented QPs come up with one of those?!? It could be the award given prior to the rucksack being placed in the hall!

That's a great idea...kind of like a CIB but with a D handle shovel in place of the rifle.

Or perhaps crossed shovels with a miner's helmet placed in the center...kind of a take off of the combat diver badge.

greenberetTFS
10-11-2011, 14:05
That's a great idea...kind of like a CIB but with a D handle shovel in place of the rifle.

Or perhaps crossed shovels with a miner's helmet placed in the center...kind of a take off of the combat diver badge.

I agree,we need a QP with Photoshop,what a challenge................;) :D

Big Teddy :munchin

rdret1
10-11-2011, 17:27
I agree,we need a QP with Photoshop,what a challenge................;) :D

Big Teddy :munchin

I am sure Al could come up with it in a few minutes.:D

The Reaper
10-11-2011, 17:37
I don't pity myself.

edit: And I wouldn't want you to either. Spare it, just in case the sun was shining really bright this morning and you got a little giddy.

Your impulsiveness and lack of SA is going to become a problem in your near future.

TR

Dusty
10-11-2011, 17:38
I am sure Al could come up with it in a few minutes.:D

lol Yeah, at $69.99 plus a small shipping and handling fee. :D:D

Richard
10-11-2011, 17:46
Your impulsiveness and lack of SA is going to become a problem in your near future.

Glad I didn't get that fortune cookie with my meal from PeiWei! ;)

Richard :munchin

alelks
10-11-2011, 19:36
Personally I've always liked this one:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS_qKuu8txNluhK7LoQ-ELp9N6jnREbh46iveIZN1xjs3U12XI5

Or this one:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtb8OQ1Gj8tQErjeFZwVaKljZG7lsv9 xtu3k3Sa8m7UffJysb1mg

alelks
10-11-2011, 19:37
lol Yeah, at $69.99 plus a small shipping and handling fee. :D:D

That'll be $99.99 for you mister. But wait, if you act now ...............

Tress
10-11-2011, 22:10
Originally posted by Abrazadereas:

I don't pity myself.

edit: And I wouldn't want you to either. Spare it, just in case the sun was shining really bright this morning and you got a little giddy.


Abrazadereas

OK. I have calmed down a bit since your last post and Robert Daly saying “Mea Culpa” has also improved my disposition.

Do not take my post in any manner other than that which I intend. I am not being accusatory or mean. Everything that I write henceforth in this post (until I tell you differently) is in an even, mild mannered tone. Think of me now as a favorite uncle offering you advice that may just help you survive in this forum and maybe even in other situations in which you may find yourself in life. If you are serious about trying to follow in the footsteps of the QP’s on this forum you may want to read this carefully.

When I first enlisted in the Army for Special Forces (about 10 years before you were born) there was virtually no information available with which to G-2 (learn in advance) what the course and the SF way of life was all about. The recruiter’s knew nothing about it (no matter what they said), there were no books, no television documentaries nor web sites. The information that you did get was either woefully inadequate or completely incorrect. Back then you just did what you were told as it came to you and drove on.

This website is available to help you make it through the course and achieve the first of many goals that you say that you desire to achieve, but I see you pissing it away with almost every post that you write. Here you need only follow some basic rules such as good grammar, spelling, searching to see if your question has already been answered and not making dumb-ass comments about things that you presently know nothing about. To me those rules do not seem too difficult to follow when compared to the reward that you will receive for following them. Breaking these simple rules will merely get you banned from the site. On an ODA the rules are somewhat more stringent and breaking the rules could get you killed or, even worse, get someone else killed.

On this web site there are many individuals that have done that which you seek to do and individuals that are still doing it, many of both types presently working in the various stages of the Qualification Course that you wish to attend. Do you really think that you will not be remembered and pointed out for your attitude, flakiness and lack of Situational Awareness? Special Forces is a very small community and news travels fast. I am not saying that you will be black-balled, but you will be given extra scrutiny and I can guarantee you that the extra scrutiny of which I speak will not be helpful to you while trying to complete the Q-Course.

Simply put, ODA’s do not need the kind of individual that you are presently showing us that you are. They have neither the time nor the inclination to teach you to write, speak and act in the manner that you will need to in order to assist an ODA in its mission. In order to make it on an ODA the rest of the Detachment members need to be able to depend on you to do your job correctly and cover their collective asses while they do their job and cover your ass. Did you happen to notice that inter-dependency? Presently I do not think that there is a QP in this forum that feels as if they can depend on you to pull your head out of your ass and act normally, never mind depend on you in a firefight.

If you truly wish to attempt becoming an SF soldier straighten yourself out and stop acting like a street punk. It is neither funny nor appreciated here and I can guarantee you that it will not be appreciated in the Q-Course nor on an ODA.

Presently, I do not pity you at all. I envy you, but only because of your age. I just wish that I was your age again so I could do it all over again.


Favorite uncle voice turned off.

For your information I wake up giddy every morning whether the sun is shining or not. And believe me when I tell you this…

You could not handle my giddiness! ;)

And by the way, that is the last strike that I will offer you.

Tress

P.S. -- This has always bothered me about your screen name. I think that you spelled it incorrectly. Should it not be “Abrazaderas”. I may not have used my Spanish much in the last few years but I think you have one too many e’s in there.

greenberetTFS
10-12-2011, 01:32
Abrazadereas

OK. I have calmed down a bit since your last post and Robert Daly saying “Mea Culpa” has also improved my disposition.

Do not take my post in any manner other than that which I intend. I am not being accusatory or mean. Everything that I write henceforth in this post (until I tell you differently) is in an even, mild mannered tone. Think of me now as a favorite uncle offering you advice that may just help you survive in this forum and maybe even in other situations in which you may find yourself in life. If you are serious about trying to follow in the footsteps of the QP’s on this forum you may want to read this carefully.

When I first enlisted in the Army for Special Forces (about 10 years before you were born) there was virtually no information available with which to G-2 (learn in advance) what the course and the SF way of life was all about. The recruiter’s knew nothing about it (no matter what they said), there were no books, no television documentaries nor web sites. The information that you did get was either woefully inadequate or completely incorrect. Back then you just did what you were told as it came to you and drove on.

This website is available to help you make it through the course and achieve the first of many goals that you say that you desire to achieve, but I see you pissing it away with almost every post that you write. Here you need only follow some basic rules such as good grammar, spelling, searching to see if your question has already been answered and not making dumb-ass comments about things that you presently know nothing about. To me those rules do not seem too difficult to follow when compared to the reward that you will receive for following them. Breaking these simple rules will merely get you banned from the site. On an ODA the rules are somewhat more stringent and breaking the rules could get you killed or, even worse, get someone else killed.

On this web site there are many individuals that have done that which you seek to do and individuals that are still doing it, many of both types presently working in the various stages of the Qualification Course that you wish to attend. Do you really think that you will not be remembered and pointed out for your attitude, flakiness and lack of Situational Awareness? Special Forces is a very small community and news travels fast. I am not saying that you will be black-balled, but you will be given extra scrutiny and I can guarantee you that the extra scrutiny of which I speak will not be helpful to you while trying to complete the Q-Course.

Simply put, ODA’s do not need the kind of individual that you are presently showing us that you are. They have neither the time nor the inclination to teach you to write, speak and act in the manner that you will need to in order to assist an ODA in its mission. In order to make it on an ODA the rest of the Detachment members need to be able to depend on you to do your job correctly and cover their collective asses while they do their job and cover your ass. Did you happen to notice that inter-dependency? Presently I do not think that there is a QP in this forum that feels as if they can depend on you to pull your head out of your ass and act normally, never mind depend on you in a firefight.

If you truly wish to attempt becoming an SF soldier straighten yourself out and stop acting like a street punk. It is neither funny nor appreciated here and I can guarantee you that it will not be appreciated in the Q-Course nor on an ODA.

Presently, I do not pity you at all. I envy you, but only because of your age. I just wish that I was your age again so I could do it all over again.


Favorite uncle voice turned off.

For your information I wake up giddy every morning whether the sun is shining or not. And believe me when I tell you this…

You could not handle my giddiness! ;)

And by the way, that is the last strike that I will offer you.

Tress

P.S. -- This has always bothered me about your screen name. I think that you spelled it incorrectly. Should it not be “Abrazaderas”. I may not have used my Spanish much in the last few years but I think you have one too many e’s in there.

Hey Tress,this kid sounds like he's hockey timber to me,let's put him on a pair of skates and show him how the game is played............;)

Big Teddy :munchin

Tress
10-12-2011, 08:15
Originally posted by Abrazadereas:

Yes, sir. I am sincerely and personally grateful for even being thought about for one second by you, or any other QP. I don't deserve it.

In the immortal words of BrickTop from the movie "Snatch",

"Pull your tongue out of my arsehole. Dogs do that! You are not a dog, are you?"

Man-up!!!! We do not suffer pussies well either.

Yes, it frustrated me as well. I didn't want to bother anyone to change it, looking further like an idiot after the initial idiot typo and the subsequent idiot behavior.

Well, the cat is out of the bag now. Ask one of the Moderators to change it for you.

Tress

SB8734
11-16-2011, 16:06
Do any of you think there is any validity in the theory that blood type corresponds to personality at all? If they're are right, I can imagine there be some kind of correlation between blood type and occupations/career choices just like the correlation between NPY and QP's.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/05/blood-type-say-about-you

http://askville.amazon.com/blood-type-determine-future-professional-career/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=32895607

Guy
11-16-2011, 16:47
Do any of you think there is any validity in the theory that blood type corresponds to personality at all? If they're are right, I can imagine there be some kind of correlation between blood type and occupations/career choices just like the correlation between NPY and QP's.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/05/blood-type-say-about-you

http://askville.amazon.com/blood-type-determine-future-professional-career/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=32895607

Good-goobily-gooooo!

Last hard class
11-16-2011, 17:07
SB8734


I believe you may have harnessed the power of Dynamic Inertia!


Shake Shake Shake



LHC

SP5IC
11-16-2011, 19:50
This from the SF-List: Harold Johnson (former Chief of Staff) is quoted as saying that the Green Berets in Vietnam were "fugitives from responsibility. These were people that some how or other tended to be non-conformists, couldn't get along in a straight military system, and found a haven where their actions were not scrutinized too carefully, and where they came under only sporadic or intermittent observation from the regular chain of command." And, wrote the authors: "The culture clash was so great that many Green Berets took Johnson's comments as a compliment."

He forgot the Rolex, etc. Generals have their place, and so do we.

1stindoor
11-17-2011, 10:19
"The culture clash was so great that many Green Berets took Johnson's comments as a compliment."
He forgot the Rolex, etc. Generals have their place, and so do we.

It wasn't a compliment?

ZonieDiver
11-17-2011, 11:06
Do any of you think there is any validity in the theory that blood type corresponds to personality at all? If they're are right, I can imagine there be some kind of correlation between blood type and occupations/career choices just like the correlation between NPY and QP's.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/05/blood-type-say-about-you

http://askville.amazon.com/blood-type-determine-future-professional-career/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=32895607

Are you STILL here?

greenberetTFS
11-17-2011, 14:00
Boy oh boy,we really get some winners on this thread...........:rolleyes::eek::p

Big Teddy :munchin

Buffalobob
11-17-2011, 14:02
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference

I guess Johnson went down the well traveled road.

mark46th
11-17-2011, 18:10
I always found that the closer I was to the flag pole, the more trouble I got into. 500 miles was usually a safe distance...

mojaveman
11-17-2011, 18:57
Any early indicators from the adolescent years?

Getting into more fights than the average young male, playing malicious pranks on the neighbors, playing with BB guns and fireworks, challenging authority, getting into trouble at school, doing risky things on a dare, drinking beer, etc.

Dozer523
11-17-2011, 20:28
Any early indicators from the adolescent years?

Getting into more fights than the average young male, playing malicious pranks on the neighbors, playing with BB guns and fireworks, challenging authority, getting into trouble at school, doing risky things on a dare, drinking beer, etc.

We're not freaking delinquents.
Check out the "Did boy Scouts help you in SF" thread. We have a very high number of Eagle Scouts and Life Scouts who profess not sticking with it to complete the requirements for Eagle as their ONLY regret (or one of the few).

Just cuz some General who didn't understand what he was seeing . . .

mojaveman
11-17-2011, 21:30
We're not freaking delinquents.

No angels either, at least not some of the enlisted folk I knew. ;) :p

mark46th
11-17-2011, 22:22
Not a lot of fights but spent a lot of time making small explosives out of the powder from my dad's can of Hercules Red Dot...

SB8734
11-20-2011, 14:32
Are you STILL here?

I'm not completely convinced yet that I'm not qualified to try out for SF in the future, so I decided to stick around a bit longer.

Sarski
11-30-2011, 08:09
This from the SF-List: Harold Johnson (former Chief of Staff) is quoted as saying that the Green Berets in Vietnam were "fugitives from responsibility. These were people that some how or other tended to be non-conformists, couldn't get along in a straight military system, and found a haven where their actions were not scrutinized too carefully, and where they came under only sporadic or intermittent observation from the regular chain of command." And, wrote the authors: "The culture clash was so great that many Green Berets took Johnson's comments as a compliment."

He forgot the Rolex, etc. Generals have their place, and so do we.

Huge compliment. And thank God for culture clashes, and the uncanny ability to mesh right in to the cultures that oftentimes clash with our own. Forget the box. Sometimes you just have to think outside the dodecahedron.

mark46th
12-01-2011, 16:06
That's why SF was successful in Southeast Asia. We didn't follow all the rules. There is a reason it is called "Unconventional Warfare". Geezus....

Rye
12-03-2011, 21:02
You know on such a topic it would be relevant to bring up the matter of training. A study was done here in Australia on our Special Force elements, namely the Special Air Service Regiment and 2Commando Regiment. I believe the study was done on these members during black role, as they trained for home or close-to counter-terrorist incidents under the esteemed Tactical Assault Group (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJdreNh1nxE).

The 'overstimulation' of certain parts of the brain caused operators to 'overdevelop' and make more use of these areas due to the unrelentless degree of high intensity training on a daily basis over a intermediate to relatively long period of time.

I have no reference as it was on the news for a short period of time, then vanished and I cannot find it published. :rolleyes:

But, to cause more interactions of the body and advances within neural developments or stimulation, this could probably be true to some degree. Of course they are secreting more hormones than the average human, and their workload is a lot more mentally and physically demanding - as they say, it sharpens the mind.

Their body 'norms' and degree of sensitivity to stimulation, or specific stimulants, would be at a different level and boundary limit to others. Just a thought...

500 Proof
07-21-2012, 15:57
A study was done ...

Can you link?

Edit: I carelessly scanned over you mentioning this: I have no reference as it was on the news for a short period of time, then vanished and I cannot find it published.

greenberetTFS
07-22-2012, 11:59
How to be a "Special Forces Guy":

1 Grow epic beard
2 wear black oakleys or gatorz
3 hands in pockets as much as possible
4 sweat stained hunting fishing or "contractor" hat
5 drive jacked up truck or ride a harley
6 never say its classified just look angry and no one will ask
7 see photo below,anything thats missing is above my pay grade....

Big Teddy :munchin

Jgood
07-22-2012, 13:08
1 Grow epic beard-CHECK
2 wear black oakleys or gatorz-CHECK
3 hands in pockets as much as possible-CHECK
4 sweat stained hunting fishing or "contractor" hat -CHECK
5 drive jacked up truck or ride a harley -AFTER DEPLOYMENT
6 never say its classified just look angry and no one will ask-CHECK

SGM will be on your ass for aleast 3 of the 5 posted above :lifter

1stindoor
07-23-2012, 05:56
SGM will be on your ass for aleast 3 of the 5 posted above :lifter

Possibly...but on the inside he's smiling...knowing he's left the detachment in good hands.

Dreadnought
07-28-2012, 23:43
Sounds like a vestige of the "2%", which are psychologically precluded from developing PTSD when compared to the average service member, which theoretically comprise the vast majority of SOF as mentioned by Mr. Grossman in his book "On Killing."

Doesn't sound unreasonable, but I imagine that it's pretty standard throughout all of the SOFs that this resiliency is prevalent

jkirkthomas
08-15-2012, 20:23
There might be a genetic basis for whatever biological difference there is with us, but as an earlier post mentioned, the term "mind-set" expresses it well. I made it though jump school and Training Group because I already knew that nothing was going to stop me, and it didn't. Mind-set. To get past being wet, cold, hungry, exhausted, scared shitless, or otherewise stressed, and going beyond what you ever thought you could do because other members of your team are depending on you and by God, you HAVE to. Mind set. I served with men better than me - stronger, faster, more talented and skillful, etc., etc. - but my mind set kept me from letting them down. You either have it or you don't, and if you aren't sure, then you probably don't.

Then too, being a stubborn, opinionated, irrascible SOB probably helps as well.

My two cents worth.

glebo
08-16-2012, 10:58
Also, if ya ever noticed, there's quite a lot of lefties in SF also....( I mean folks who write left handed)..that is..more so than anywhere else...

anything to it??...

ZonieDiver
08-16-2012, 11:29
Also, if ya ever noticed, there's quite a lot of lefties in SF also....( I mean folks who write left handed)..that is..more so than anywhere else...

anything to it??...

I never noticed that many "lefties"! However, when I went to Camp Mackall, what I did notice was the plethora of Southerners and Westerners. In my tent, we had two guys from AZ, and one each from UT, WY, CO, MT and NM. As far as I knew, there was only one guy from CA - and believe it or not, he was from Frisco (I refuse to call it SF)... but he was a Reservist.

Box
08-16-2012, 11:52
I have done some research recently...
There does seem to be one distinguishing difference:
Ego.

We have an ego that is visibly larger and more defined than the average Soldier. It is also known that an oxygen rich environment causes it to 'peak', which is why MFF guys are so much cooler than regular SF guys.
This also explains why Scuba guys run neck-and-neck in coolness with MFF guys because of the compressed gas they are sometimes exposed to. (salt water combined with compressed air produces the same jump in coolness factor as 100% aviator grade oxygen.)

Navy Special Forces (AKA-SEALS) also have the same ego genetics that we do and since they live at the beach, they are exposed to exponentially more salt water than SF Scuba dudes. Add to this the fact that all SEAL are MFF qualified now and it becomes painfully obvious why the SEALs have such GINORMOUS egos...

Its science. I’d explain it in more detail, but most folks just aren’t smart enough to understand.

Try this little quiz…
Q: How many SF guys do you know that don’t own a mirror or a baseball cap?
A: None

I rest my case.
Its science – plain and simple.

mark46th
08-16-2012, 14:27
Hard to argue with such exquisite logic, Billy...

Stras
08-16-2012, 20:14
Also, if ya ever noticed, there's quite a lot of lefties in SF also....( I mean folks who write left handed)..that is..more so than anywhere else...

anything to it??...

Four of seven on my team are lefties..... course, three of these are also MFF JMs.

There's an attitude that is exhibited either verbally, or physically that tends to ID us as well.. At least according to my better half, who laughs at how we try to blend in as she picks them all out in the crowd. The swagger, or checking of dead space, sitting against a wall in a bar, etc.

Zerekoh
08-17-2012, 17:04
Biological and Psychological...

I always love when Doc's refer to us sociopaths or psychopathic (but in a good way right?).

i.e.
http://mindwarriors.typepad.com/mind_warriors/2006/06/sociopaths_vs_p.html

"To further illustrate this idea of sociopath vs. psychopath lets indulge in a few hopefully recognizable and easily understood societal archetypes. A Special Forces soldier, military snipers, intelligence operatives are in my opinion examples of socially accepted psychopaths whose focus is on their interpretations of God, country and perhaps family. It is their intent, rationale and espoused beliefs that gives them acceptance within our society. These individuals focus on their code of honor, something noble, consequently they are able to kill when necessary, gather intelligence, exploit others and gain information by what may appear to be nefarious means all in the name of what they deem as their higher goals. The danger is clearly evident when people in government rationalize their militaristic posture or domestic policies regarding the citizenry's right to know or protest as somehow unpatriotic, cowardice or tools of subversives. The point is that a psychopath is not necessarily a cold-blooded killer in many instances although I would say that all cold-blooded killers are definately psychopaths or sociopaths."

or...
http://murderousmusings.blogspot.com/2009/03/two-sides-of-psychopathy.html

"The Fearless Dominant type (which I will call the FD type for simplicity's sake) is often a paradoxical mix of charm and nastiness. Cool and calm under pressure, the FD type is not easily rattled. They lack the same kind of anticipatory anxiety that most people have, so instead of thinking, "What? Jump out of a perfectly good airplane?", the FD type just thinks, "Cool!" Fearless Dominance is associated with a number of things our society considers desirable or good: high verbal I.Q., high performance, and economic success. The FD type is often charming and socially influential. He or she relishes directing other people's activities and basking in their admiration. The FD type is sexually adventurous and often takes risks. It's not that they can't feel fear or anxiety; it's just that it takes a much more extreme situation to elicit those emotions. FD types live for the thrill, the excitement, the adrenaline rush. With proper parenting and a nurturing environment, an FD type might become a fireman or policeman. As Dr. Benning said, if you were assembling a Special Forces team, you would want to screen for people high in fearless dominance."

It's interesting when psychologists use our description in the classification of psychopathic behavior. So what is the conclusion?
Take a highly skilled, charismatic, very fit, moderately acceptable psychopathic individual. Then give him the worlds best firepower at his disposal, and enough cash to grease the wheels. What do you get?

Any country you want...

Fortunately for others we Free the Oppressed

De Oppresso Liber Brothers.

Hopefully my first actual post lives up to this forum.:o

glebo
08-17-2012, 17:41
Biological and Psychological...

I always love when Doc's refer to us sociopaths or psychopathic (but in a good way right?).

i.e.
http://mindwarriors.typepad.com/mind_warriors/2006/06/sociopaths_vs_p.html

"To further illustrate this idea of sociopath vs. psychopath lets indulge in a few hopefully recognizable and easily understood societal archetypes. A Special Forces soldier, military snipers, intelligence operatives are in my opinion examples of socially accepted psychopaths whose focus is on their interpretations of God, country and perhaps family. It is their intent, rationale and espoused beliefs that gives them acceptance within our society. These individuals focus on their code of honor, something noble, consequently they are able to kill when necessary, gather intelligence, exploit others and gain information by what may appear to be nefarious means all in the name of what they deem as their higher goals. The danger is clearly evident when people in government rationalize their militaristic posture or domestic policies regarding the citizenry's right to know or protest as somehow unpatriotic, cowardice or tools of subversives. The point is that a psychopath is not necessarily a cold-blooded killer in many instances although I would say that all cold-blooded killers are definately psychopaths or sociopaths."

or...
http://murderousmusings.blogspot.com/2009/03/two-sides-of-psychopathy.html

"The Fearless Dominant type (which I will call the FD type for simplicity's sake) is often a paradoxical mix of charm and nastiness. Cool and calm under pressure, the FD type is not easily rattled. They lack the same kind of anticipatory anxiety that most people have, so instead of thinking, "What? Jump out of a perfectly good airplane?", the FD type just thinks, "Cool!" Fearless Dominance is associated with a number of things our society considers desirable or good: high verbal I.Q., high performance, and economic success. The FD type is often charming and socially influential. He or she relishes directing other people's activities and basking in their admiration. The FD type is sexually adventurous and often takes risks. It's not that they can't feel fear or anxiety; it's just that it takes a much more extreme situation to elicit those emotions. FD types live for the thrill, the excitement, the adrenaline rush. With proper parenting and a nurturing environment, an FD type might become a fireman or policeman. As Dr. Benning said, if you were assembling a Special Forces team, you would want to screen for people high in fearless dominance."

It's interesting when psychologists use our description in the classification of psychopathic behavior. So what is the conclusion?
Take a highly skilled, charismatic, very fit, moderately acceptable psychopathic individual. Then give him the worlds best firepower at his disposal, and enough cash to grease the wheels. What do you get?

Any country you want...

Fortunately for others we Free the Oppressed

De Oppresso Liber Brothers.

Hopefully my first actual post lives up to this forum.:o

Well, actually, this should've been your 2d....intro first...

Zerekoh
08-17-2012, 18:48
Rgr,
I knocked out the mandatory intro, and now giving my $0.02 here. I was referring to actual information folks might care about as my first post, as opposed to my intro :)

When going through the SFQC in 03' we gave blood samples and cheek swabs and got some briefs in the Delta pipeline about the collaboration with Duke University to identify the "super soldier gene" and what not. One of the SWC Psych docs discussed with us how approximately 75% of SF folks could be classified as psychopaths.
Keep in mind there are different levels of psychopathy, and some of the lower descriptions include:
Glibness/superficial charm
Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Lack of remorse or guilt
ect.

It seemed interesting at the time, and reading this thread brought it back to memory.

Cheers

Sarski
08-17-2012, 19:58
http://mindwarriors.typepad.com/mind_warriors/2006/06/sociopaths_vs_p.html

"To further illustrate this idea of sociopath vs. psychopath lets indulge in a few hopefully recognizable and easily understood societal archetypes. A Special Forces soldier, military snipers, intelligence operatives are in my opinion examples of socially accepted psychopaths whose focus is on their interpretations of God, country and perhaps family. It is their intent, rationale and espoused beliefs that gives them acceptance within our society. These individuals focus on their code of honor, something noble, consequently they are able to kill when necessary, gather intelligence, exploit others and gain information by what may appear to be nefarious means all in the name of what they deem as their higher goals. The danger is clearly evident when people in government rationalize their militaristic posture or domestic policies regarding the citizenry's right to know or protest as somehow unpatriotic, cowardice or tools of subversives. The point is that a psychopath is not necessarily a cold-blooded killer in many instances although I would say that all cold-blooded killers are definately psychopaths or sociopaths."

or...
http://murderousmusings.blogspot.com/2009/03/two-sides-of-psychopathy.html

"The Fearless Dominant type (which I will call the FD type for simplicity's sake) is often a paradoxical mix of charm and nastiness. Cool and calm under pressure, the FD type is not easily rattled. They lack the same kind of anticipatory anxiety that most people have, so instead of thinking, "What? Jump out of a perfectly good airplane?", the FD type just thinks, "Cool!" Fearless Dominance is associated with a number of things our society considers desirable or good: high verbal I.Q., high performance, and economic success. The FD type is often charming and socially influential. He or she relishes directing other people's activities and basking in their admiration. The FD type is sexually adventurous and often takes risks. It's not that they can't feel fear or anxiety; it's just that it takes a much more extreme situation to elicit those emotions. FD types live for the thrill, the excitement, the adrenaline rush. With proper parenting and a nurturing environment, an FD type might become a fireman or policeman. As Dr. Benning said, if you were assembling a Special Forces team, you would want to screen for people high in fearless dominance."



I would have to disagree with these docs. I don't think one volunteers to be a sociopath, or psychopath, it just happens. They are not trained. SF recieve extensive training to do the job that they do. And that training never ceases. One does not have to be a sociopath or psychopath to be SF. In fact I would venture to guess quite the opposite.

The persons diagnosed, or in need of this diagnosis cannot stop, nor do they particularly care about the outcome of their actions, or the effect their actions may have on others, save for their own gratification.

I would also ventrue to guess that fear is not absent, just minimized, controlled or compartmentalized in SF types.

Sociopaths are often loners that choose to live with as little human contact as possible, unless this contact fits into and feeds their disorder, or is job related. I think that SF types, in order to make up the teams they do, and perform the jobs they do, have to be, for lack of a better term, people persons, outgoing, sociable, and tolerant.

Given the psych evals needed for the designation, I am sure many personality disorders are screened out.

Considering the topic of this thread, are SF biologically different, I tend to think that this would be a huge difference from both the population and those diagnosed with anti-social personality disorder.

So, I have to ask, what the purpose of this type of comparison is, and why would one choose to make it in relation to SF soldiers?

ETA: DSM-IV ASPDO Criteria / Proposed Criteria for PPDO

http://www.macalester.edu/academics/psychology/whathap/ubnrp/serialkillers/dsm_antisocial.html

A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.

2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.

3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.

4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.

5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.

6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.

7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

B. The individual is at least age 18 years of age.

C. There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15.

D. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a manic episode.

By definition, all individuals with Antisocial Personality Disorder had preceding Conduct Disorder as a child. Among those with Childhood Conduct Disorder, however, only about 40 percent of males and 24 percent of females are diagnosed with Adult Antisocial Personality Disorder. The highest reported rate of diagnosis is among the male adult population, averaging between ages 25 and 44. These are also the ages of most convicted serial killers with Antisocial Personality Disorder, for example Ted Bundy who was a classic psychopath-cunning, charming, callous-and of course, deadly. For more information on Ted Bundy

Among those criminals with Antisocial Personality Disorder few ever make it into old age, because of a abnormally high rate of early death from suicide, homicide, accidents, and complications of drug and alcohol abuse.

Because the criteria for diagnosing Antisocial Personality Disorder emphasize overt violations of social rules, it is not surprising that it correlates so well with criminality. Research on American criminals showed that 25 to 30 percent of the imprisoned inmates meet the criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder. Canadian researcher Robert Hare (1983) reported that 40 to 50 percent of the convicted prisoners in Canada met the criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder and that in some Canadian prison populations the rate was as high as 75 percent. Psychopathic prisoners on average, have longer sentences and are less successful in staying out of prison than nonpsychopathic prisoners.

Patterns emerge in the evaluation of the histories and backgrounds of individuals with Antisocial Personality Disorder. There is a reoccurring course of childhood deviance in which their problems start at a young age and tend to continue into adulthood.

A DSM-IV field trial was done that aimed at improving criteria for antisocial personality disorder. The criteria are based on the revised Psychopathy Checklist, an interview procedure that also draws on information from any other available source, such as criminal or case records. The proposed disorder was named Psychopathy Personality Disorder. The first five characteristics pertain to a subscale consisting of selfish, callous, and remorseless unstable and antisocial lifestyle, and the other five pertain to chronically unstable and antisocial lifestyle.

Proposed Criteria for Psychopathic Personality Disorder

2. Inflated and arrogant self-appraisal

3. Lacks remorse

4. Lacks empathy

5. Deceitful and manipulative

6. Early behavior problems

7. Adult antisocial behavior

8. Impulsive

9. Poor behavioral controls

10. Irresponsible


Seems a world apart, if you ask me, but I am interested in the QPs thoughts on this.

Zerekoh
08-17-2012, 20:18
What is truly interesting is the assumption made by medical professionals that SF have traits of psychological disorders, when they are viewing the subject from an outside perspective. I do not know of any medical professionals, that have been Special Forces, to make such claims.

But for conjecture in the discussion of Biological difference, it can be addressed.

As a Special Forces trainer/ evaluator of SF hopefuls, I do know that training brings out traits in those that have the ability and attributes. SF candidates that are successful ARE different, we make them qualified during the training. Sure we give them skills to be good entry level operators, but the qualities that are in them from the start make them successful in the training, and on a team.
We cannot make a Special Forces Soldier with the SOF core attributes, we can only identify them during the training.

Sarski
08-17-2012, 20:26
What is truly interesting is the assumption made by medical professionals that SF have traits of psychological disorders, when they are viewing the subject from an outside perspective. I do not know of any medical professionals, that have been Special Forces, to make such claims.

But for conjecture in the discussion of Biological difference, it can be addressed.

As a Special Forces trainer/ evaluator of SF hopefuls, I do know that training brings out traits in those that have the ability and attributes. SF candidates that are successful ARE different, we make them qualified during the training. Sure we give them skills to be good entry level operators, but the qualities that are in them from the start make them successful in the training, and on a team.
We cannot make a Special Forces Soldier with the SOF core attributes, we can only identify them during the training.

So in a way, the skills and attributes are already present, in some cases dormant, and they show through during training? Is there a generalized list or is it just something that is recognized as trainees progress? If there was a list (kind of a "this is what we look for"), whether your own or one in wide use, I am certain the traits would dispell any association or comparison with diagnosable personality disorders.

Zerekoh
08-17-2012, 20:38
Forgive me for probably restating what is already available in this forum, but I claim newb forum status still:)

This is what we look for in all the SF trainees:

http://www.soc.mil/swcs/about.html

ARSOF CORE ATTRIBUTES

These attributes will be used as a benchmark in the selection of special-operations Soldiers. All Soldiers entering training at SWCS will be briefed on the attributes. Their initial counseling will be based on the attributes, and the attributes' importance will be stressed throughout training.

Integrity
Being trustworthy and honest; acting with honor and unwavering adherence to ethical standards.

Courage
Acting on own convictions despite consequences; is willing to sacrifice for a larger cause; not paralyzed by fear of failure.

Perseverance
Working toward an end; has commitment; physical or mental resolve; motivated; gives effort to the cause; does not quit.

Personal Responsibility
Being self-motivated and an autonomous self-starter; anticipates tasks and acts accordingly; takes accountability for his actions.

Professionalism
Behaving as a standard-bearer for the regiment; has a professional image, to include a level of maturity and judgment mixed with confidence and humility; forms sound opinions and makes own decisions; stands behind his sensible decisions based on his experiences.

Adaptability
Possessing the ability to maintain composure while responding to or adjusting one's own thinking and actions to fit a changing environment; the ability to think and solve problems in unconventional ways; the ability to recognize, understand and navigate within multiple social networks; the ability to proactively shape the environment or circumstances in anticipation of desired outcomes.

Team Player
Possessing the ability to work on a team for a greater purpose than himself; dependable and loyal; works selflessly with a sense of duty; respects others and recognizes diversity.

Capability
Maintaining physical fitness, to include strength and agility; has operational knowledge; able to plan and communicate effectively.

These attributes, in my opinion, can be honed during training but not created. No matter how vigorous or awesome the training venue is, a candidate will show these traits or he won't.

As for the sociopathic or pyschopatic tendencies: Perhaps from an outside doctor trying to make a cool analogy to his students, he has a skewed idea of what Special Forces is. I think that these guys need to read the SOF Core Attributes, then remake their case.

Sarski
08-17-2012, 20:46
Roger that, I'm pretty newbish myself and still learning (don't let my post count fool you, I've been fairly lucky ;)). While those would definately mark a distance from personality disorders, I think those are the general overlying criteria, almost what can go on a SF recruiting pamphlet, IMHO. I am sure that more development occours throughout a SF soldiers career; with other traits that definately define the biological differences between SF and the rest of the world. Anyways, maybe that could be another thread some other time (started by someone else besides me). Thanks for your replys.

Zerekoh
08-17-2012, 20:51
I will go a little further down this rabbit hole though...

As we look for these traits in trainees. They are well published and well known to SF candidates.
So do we select guys that truly have these traits or...
Do they possess the ability to show these traits under all conditions because they are brilliant enough to know what people are looking for...

That being said, the moment they show something other than a SOF core attribute, they are gone, trainee or seasoned operator.

Sarski
08-17-2012, 21:01
Brilliance being an acceptable trait, providing it does not interfere or take the place of the other qualities though. That is one that is probably honed and developed through experience, and comes to the forefront under unique situations and when faced with complicated or difficult tasks no doubt.

Intelligence levels I would imagine are quite high for SF types in comparison to non SF, that coupled with an ability to learn, learn quickly, and an insatiable appetite for more.

Would you agree?

Zerekoh
08-17-2012, 21:06
I would agree with that.

All that being said. It seems like we are looking for choir boys, if you read the SWCS home page.

I can assure you, we are not looking for choir boys.

Choir boys don't have a sh** eating grin when they are skinnin the smoke wagon against a lesser enemy:cool:

Sarski
08-17-2012, 21:11
Roger, Zerekoh. Thanks for your insight. :)