View Full Version : Hydraulic ram water pumps
Looking to see if anyone has use or really made a Hydraulic ram water pumps (http://www.rampumps.com/products/rampump/Rampump%20Book.htm)?
Ram water pumps (http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/ram_pump.htm) use downhill water pressure to pump water much higher than it started, with no other power needed. A 20ft fall is enough to push water 150 feet above the source or more. Or as little as a 2ft fall between the water source and the pump at a flow rate of 1 to 3 gallons per minute is enough to pump water 20ft higher than the source -- as much as 4,000 gallons a day, depending on the model.
I'm looking at making (http://www.clemson.edu/irrig/Equip/ram.htm) some for down range.
BMT (RIP)
04-20-2006, 11:59
Some area's of the world a pump like this would be more help than million dollar new school.
BMT
Some area's of the world a pump like this would be more help than million dollar new school.
BMT
BMT
Thanks my thinking. Just looking for some Country Boy that has used this pump or at least something close to it.
Bill Harsey
04-20-2006, 17:42
I've got my go-to guy for this kind of thing near by. Will ask him when he gets home from his day job which is keeping a major rock quarry and fleet of trucks and heavy machines running. This seems like something he might know about.
I've got my go-to guy for this kind of thing near by. Will ask him when he gets home from his day job which is keeping a major rock quarry and fleet of trucks and heavy machines running. This seems like something he might know about.
Mr. Harsey,
I figured that you, or some in your area, would be my Go to Guy. Looking to see how well they work, factory or home made. Good or Bad points.
Thanks
Bill Harsey
04-21-2006, 10:01
Mr. Harsey,
I figured that you, or some in your area, would be my Go to Guy. Looking to see how well they work, factory or home made. Good or Bad points.
Thanks
I'll be tracking down Ken tonight and drag him back to this thread, shouldn't be hard to do, we share a fence line. Among his specialty's is/are hydraulic systems. Ken has more hardcore outback technology in his finger tips than anyone else I know.
If I have a difficult welding or mechanical problem, this is the guy I go ask.
Bill,
Thanks for finding this out for me. I know these pumps look real good for down range useage. Just like BMT said worth a Million Dollars in some places. Thanks
VG
Doing a little more research over these pump. I found this site (http://www.lifewater.ca/ndexram.htm), Go to the Link - Ramp Pump Design Specifications (Institute for Appropriate Technology). What I like about it, is the site layouts how to find out your rate of water flow and other info all in Metric. It also breaks down the make up of the system and the layouts that work.
Mr. Harsey,
From doing more reading, yes these pump do have a water waste at the beginning or startup of the pump. This is two fold: First because the main chamber (pressure) is filled with air, and this acts as the pressure mechanism to push the water out of the pump. This chamber must fill up with water. This chamber acts as an "air bladder" to prevent water-logging or air-logging. The homemade Ram Pump site list a Bike Tube, I've also seen a Ball. Also there is a poppet or release valve at the beginning of the Pump on the down hill side (Inlet).
Anyone used these before?
Bill Harsey
04-22-2006, 08:40
MtnGoat,
What I got from the first read thru is that these pumps cycle about once per second and some water is lost on each cycle (or pulse).
I discussed this with Ken last night, he hasn't heard of these but will break later today to come over and review the material.
You done good, stumped two woods raised Oregon rednecks on a mechanical issue. That doesn't happen often.
edited to add: Noticed one of the sources listed from your last link to the Canadian website is the North Carolina Extension Service.
MtnGoat --
I know a guy who has used these in the third world for filling impoundments used for milling grain, potable water and watering cattle. He was making pumps out of standard pipe, fittings, and small propane tanks. The cost of the pump can be very small -- it's the cost of the pipe up to the impoundment that can get prohibitive. I know because he hit me up for a donation to buy drive/delivery pipe for a project he was working on. :) High head flows allow smaller pipe diameters and less $$$. The specific application he was using them for was in mountainous areas that had spring runoff and sporadic heavy rains interspersed with dry spells. They pumped the h2o uphill during periods when the streams flowed and ran it down through a grain mill and then into cattle tanks during dry spells.
As BMT pointed out, the knock on effects from this were enormous -- more milk/better nutrition for kids, healthier cattle, more free time for women to start small businesses for cash, etc. etc.
I will track him down and PM his current location/email. I had his plan for building a ram out of standard 2" and 4" pipe -- I will try to find it.
Found it...
5914
He like this because it used cheap 1" drive and delivery pipe and it was cheap enough they could build several -- deliver up both sides of the valley wall. They used small propane tanks for the air chamber.
Edited to add: http://www.eng.warwick.ac.uk/DTU/pubs/lift.html
The guy I know was originally from Warwick engineering dept
MtnGoat --
I know a guy who has used these in the third world for filling impoundments used for milling grain, potable water and watering cattle. He was making pumps out of standard pipe, fittings, and small propane tanks. The cost of the pump can be very small -- it's the cost of the pipe up to the impoundment that can get prohibitive. I know because he hit me up for a donation to buy drive/delivery pipe for a project he was working on. :) High head flows allow smaller pipe diameters and less $$$. The specific application he was using them for was in mountainous areas that had spring runoff and sporadic heavy rains interspersed with dry spells. They pumped the h2o uphill during periods when the streams flowed and ran it down through a grain mill and then into cattle tanks during dry spells.
As BMT pointed out, the knock on effects from this were enormous -- more milk/better nutrition for kids, healthier cattle, more free time for women to start small businesses for cash, etc. etc.
mugwump
What your friend did with his is what I see the use as (farming). But your not limited, I think really temperature would only drive any issues with the pump - freezing wise.
I buy pumps just about everytime down range for a school or something. This pump looks so easy to make and the overall cost if it breaks downs in nothing. Cost to me in nothing, this pump I could save "tons" of $$ over buying a pump from Europe or Asia. Also, these being homemade, in some areas, if they work well. You can teach a trade to some locals. Then they make $$ in their pockets too.:D
Yes I would like to talk to your Buddy. Phone or Email whatever is easy for him. The first link is great - Thanks for that find. I want a metal pump plan.
VG
Bill Harsey
04-23-2006, 09:46
Mugwump,
Great information. I've been studying the pdf with the parts list for the pump.
First, looks like your guy is building a tandem or dual pump.
The parts diagrams got me thinking. One could have a couple kinds of pump kits to work from.
Of course the full kit would have everything but the water.
The next kit would be bare bones with only the parts that would be hardest to get and the rest would be found as common material in the country it was being built in.
Peregrino
04-23-2006, 12:32
MtnGoat - I've been lurking to see where this thread goes because I've never installed one of these pumps. I did study them when the "self sufficiency" movement was really big in the late 70s, early 80s and I've seen one in place/working. When MEN (Mother Earth News) was first being published (here in Hendersonville NC before they went bankrupt and got bought out by the MSM) they had a demonstration farm and this was one of the technologies they encouraged. (If they had just kept their politics to themselves I might still be a subscriber.) I've kept the books I collected back then (and some of them have started being reprinted with updates). The issues I discovered during my research are all site specific. #1 - There ain't no free ride. Most setups will require some type of impoundment to stabilize waterflow and ensure sufficient head (perpendicular drop in the water column) to function correctly. (Check out low-head micro hydro powerplant design while you're researching alternative/sustainable technologies.) The charts on your web sites are the same as what I've got in my library. #2 - Under ideal conditions, pumping efficiency is 10%. The higher you want to lift the water or the lower the head you have to start with, the less you can lift. The 150' - 600' heights you read about have high heads, high flow rates (or both), and (very) low pump rates. If you're lifting high enough the input side may (probably will) cycle more than once before it builds enough pressure in the air tank to "squirt" a water impulse out the supply side. #3 - The system is intended to function with surface water. Since wells are (should be) sited away from potential sources of contamination I don't know if it would be worth the effort to move well water. Any potable water system would probably require filtration/purification at the top of the lift with a tank and a gravity distribution system. We (3/7) did this several times in the 80's in Latin America. Chimore Base Camp comes to mind (used an electric well pump and a tower w/tank). The team before mine set it up and did a good job. All we had to do was maintain/expand it. Don't forget friction when calculating pipe sizes and lift potential.
Good job digging up the weblinks. The sustainable/permaculture/environmentalist groups have a lot of useful information that is still being developed. Another place to look is with the CA units on Bragg. I got my copy of the "Village Technologies Handbook, Volume 2" from a team mate who swiped it from a CA contact years ago. Their library should still have a lot of that stuff. A lot of stuff was compiled by USAID, VITA (Volunteers in Technical Assistance), the Peace Corps, and various missionary groups in the early 60's. Much of it has been forgotten/lost in favor of installing generators, electrical grids, pumps, etc. Unfortunately that's what the locals have been conditioned to expect by poorly thought out US aid programs. In my (admittedly not recent) experience, the indig actually demanded the "high tech" (BTW - unsustainable) solutions. I still remember pissing off a bunch of "do-gooders" when we described ourselves as "Peace Corps With Guns". Way too much fun jerking their chains. Nice thread, I hadn't thought about most of this stuff in years. Peregrino
The issues I discovered during my research are all site specific. #1 - There ain't no free ride. Most setups will require some type of impoundment to stabilize waterflow and ensure sufficient head (perpendicular drop in the water column) to function correctly. (Check out low-head micro hydro powerplant design while you're researching alternative/sustainable technologies.) The charts on your web sites are the same as what I've got in my library. #2 - Under ideal conditions, pumping efficiency is 10%. The higher you want to lift the water or the lower the head you have to start with, the less you can lift. The 150' - 600' heights you read about have high heads, high flow rates (or both), and (very) low pump rates. If you're lifting high enough the input side may (probably will) cycle more than once before it builds enough pressure in the air tank to "squirt" a water impulse out the supply side. #3 - The system is intended to function with surface water. Since wells are (should be) sited away from potential sources of contamination I don't know if it would be worth the effort to move well water. Any potable water system would probably require filtration/purification at the top of the lift with a tank and a gravity distribution system. We (3/7) did this several times in the 80's in Latin America. Chimore Base Camp comes to mind (used an electric well pump and a tower w/tank). The team before mine set it up and did a good job. All we had to do was maintain/expand it. Don't forget friction when calculating pipe sizes and lift potential.
These are some really good points that you've made. I'm doing some research to see if these can be used down range. The whole thing with any water system if the water source. I'm looking for pumps for irrigation of small plots in Communal Areas. Most I've seen use just a hand pump or have the $$ to purchase on good pump. Yes your right - there no easy way. But this is something that I can have in that old tool box.
The sustainable/permaculture/environmentalist groups have a lot of useful information that is still being developed. Another place to look is with the CA units on Bragg. I got my copy of the "Village Technologies Handbook, Volume 2" from a team mate who swiped it from a CA contact years ago. Their library should still have a lot of that stuff. I still remember pissing off a bunch of "do-gooders" when we described ourselves as "Peace Corps With Guns". Way too much fun jerking their chains. Nice thread, I hadn't thought about most of this stuff in years.
I'll have to look for that book. That's a good idea, I'll look for that when I get back to work.
I'm going to add some of the PDF files to my Book. Some really good info and prints.
MtnGoat --
That guy I mentioned is in Africa somewhere with an NGO that's trying to set up bicycle cart (http://www.re-cycle.org/trailer/) production. He will probably email me in June some time -- I'll hook you two up then.
See this site (http://www.itdg.org/?id=technical_briefs), you might find some interesting stuff in the water/sanitation section. I used the FireFox extension DownThemAll! to download all of the PDFs on the site.
.
mugwump-Thanks for emailing your buddy.
This site/link looks really good ;) I like the site for the information and technical papers it has on it. I Looked over it real quick; I liked two of them I looked at. Their RAM pump paper is okay on there. I like the other site (DTU) for their RAM pump info, it has better plans. But thanks for the site. I'm add a lot of the info & technical papers to my deployment book. I'll have to look this site over for the other subjects it has on it.
Thanks
I liked the "Handpumps" paper -- treadle pumps etc.
Ingenious.
Bill Harsey
05-02-2006, 08:01
Been thinking about this in relation to this thread for some time,
would a small portable windmill have any application?
My fear is that it would stand out and be reduced to "parts" for sale.
Been thinking about this in relation to this thread for some time,
would a small portable windmill have any application?
My fear is that it would stand out and be reduced to "parts" for sale.
In the SF world being down range in a foreign country, I wouldn't want Windmills, Solar panels, ETC. Now locals - Most Areas ready don't have them or use them in daily use. SO they’re not practical to "push" on them. Also from the little I know about "Alt" Energy it really cost too much and the need or requirement for the power would mean a lot of windmills.
My .02
The Reaper
05-04-2006, 14:40
I think he meant the windmills that pump water directly, like we used to do in the olden days, not to generate electricity and then run an electric pump.
They work well in a benign environment with steady winds.
TR
I think he meant the windmills that pump water directly, like we used to do in the olden days, not to generate electricity and then run an electric pump.
They work well in a benign environment with steady winds.
TR - Thanks for pulling my head out of my 4th point of contact. That is an idea to keep in the back of the head since its out now. :D
Bill Harsey
05-04-2006, 18:53
I think he meant the windmills that pump water directly, like we used to do in the olden days, not to generate electricity and then run an electric pump.
They work well in a benign environment with steady winds.
TR
Reaper,
Correct, that's exactly what I found Googling "windmills", the small ones considered "appropriate technology" that only pump water.
MtnGoat, Sorry, I should have defined this better. I've seen entire 18 wheeler loads with oversize trailers and markers going up Interstate-5 carrying exactly ONE SINGLE BLADE for the monster windmills being built up off the Columbia River Gorge.
These are not the ones I was thinking of for your application.
Reaper,
Correct, that's exactly what I found Googling "windmills", the small ones considered "appropriate technology" that only pump water.
MtnGoat, Sorry, I should have defined this better. I've seen entire 18 wheeler loads with oversize trailers and markers going up Interstate-5 carrying exactly ONE SINGLE BLADE for the monster windmills being built up off the Columbia River Gorge.
These are not the ones I was thinking of for your application.
That is a Great Idea Mr. Harsey - Water Windmills or even small power ones. But, yes I did first think of those huge Mills like you see in the California wind farms. We need something that can be moved by a Pre-runner or small truck. I can ask some people around here or back home in Texas. Thanks
Bill Harsey
05-05-2006, 08:33
MtnGoat,
Here is one manufacturer of windmills of various sizes, starting at 200 lbs for the head assembly.
http://www.aermotorwindmill.com/Products/CompleteMills/Index.asp
The Reaper
05-05-2006, 08:46
In the interest of redneck engineering and lightening the shipping requirement, I would add that I have seen windmill heads made effectively from Jeep rear differentials with a little welding.
The vanes are sheet metal, and pipe which can handle the torque can be the shaft. All you need is a pulley driven pump for the bottom and some more pipe (PVC?) to reach the water.
TR
Bill Harsey
05-05-2006, 08:49
Reaper,
That's as good as it gets, you drive your windmill to the site.
The Reaper
05-05-2006, 09:00
Reaper,
That's as good as it gets, you drive your windmill to the site.
You say that in jest, but I would bet that if there were enough body panels for the vanes, a load of steel pipe, and a welder, we could make a windmill from a car, to include using the water pump for the pump and the pulleys and belts to drive it.
Just a thought.
TR
Bill Harsey
05-05-2006, 09:11
You say that in jest, but I would bet that if there were enough body panels for the vanes, a load of steel pipe, and a welder, we could make a windmill from a car, to include using the water pump for the pump and the pulleys and belts to drive it.
Just a thought.
TR
I wasn't completely joking. Your exactly correct, I'd also want a cutting torch in the "shop truck" and a good angle grinder that would run off the power supply built into the portable gas powered welder.
This would be a good test of mechanical/fabrication skills.
The Reaper
05-05-2006, 09:35
I wasn't completely joking. Your exactly correct, I'd also want a cutting torch in the "shop truck" and a good angle grinder that would run off the power supply built into the portable gas powered welder.
This would be a good test of mechanical/fabrication skills.
Don't need the separate gas powered welder. You can run them off of a special alternator that provides welding capability from the engine.
http://www.zena.net/
http://www.premierpowerwelder.com/specs/ppwspecs.html
They will also provide 115 AC power and act as a power source for MIG and TIG.
You could set up a generator or fabricate a grinder off of the Jeep PTO, or just plug in a bench grinder to the special alternator output.
The cutting torch you would have to bring, though I have been told that you can do rough cuts with a welder.
TR
The Reaper
05-05-2006, 09:50
Hey, just stumbled onto this ICW the welder.
An underhood heat exchanger that will let you get water heated by your vehicle engine. Comes in handy if your windmill is taking longer to build than you thought and you brought an XX along for advice.:eek: :munchin
http://www.premierpowerwelder.com/underhood/underhood.html
TR
Check out POLDAW wind turbines. They are a modern re-design of the old idea. Cost is about $300 - $500 and they are indig-maintainable. The gearing/transmission is rope and wood -- really ingenious -- and does not tangle or foul with multiple head swings (rotations) of the blade section when the wind is changing bearing (a flaw with many inexspensive 3rd world mills).
6023
This is often coupled with a rope pump. One rope pump can be made from one old auto tire, some rope, pvc, scrap tin, and a coke bottle filled w/ cement.
6024
http://www.ropepumps.org/
Bill Harsey
05-05-2006, 13:57
Mugwump,
You keep this stuff up and I'm going to have to nominate you for the first PS.com "Redneck Engineer of the Year" award.
I'm checking the rule book now to see if big city kids are qualified to enter.
:D
Mugwump,
You keep this stuff up and I'm going to have to nominate you for the first PS.com "Redneck Engineer of the Year" award.
I'm checking the rule book now to see if big city kids are qualified to enter.
:D
It'd be an honor, but no go. I am small town at heart, but I read the redneck engineering thread and I know I just wouldn't "see" the solutions described there. A man's got to know his limitations.
This "appropriate technology" stuff intrigues me. I met a lot of folk who were hooked on developing it when I lived in the UK. Some of them are walking the walk with NGOs in some of the same places the QPs hang out. I try to keep up with them and what they are doing.
Peregrino
05-05-2006, 15:48
It'd be an honor, but no go. I am small town at heart, but I read the redneck engineering thread and I know I just wouldn't "see" the solutions described there. A man's got to know his limitations.
This "appropriate technology" stuff intrigues me. I met a lot of folk who were hooked on developing it when I lived in the UK. Some of them are walking the walk with NGOs in some of the same places the QPs hang out. I try to keep up with them and what they are doing.
A lot of the "worker bees" in the NGOs are good people doing genuinely useful humanitarian labors. Now if something could only be done about the politics of their bosses and mouthpieces. My .02 - Peregrino
Bill Harsey
05-05-2006, 16:44
Mugwump,
It always amazed me to see the working solutions the old hands in the logging operations came up with to nearly impossible problems.
We kept that outfit running with a twenty pound sledge hammer, an oxy-acetylene torch, portable arc welder, one nine inch Milwaukee angle grinder, a box of 3/4 inch drive socket wrenches and a whole lot of bad attitude.
The saying in our particular neck of the forest was: "what for a normal man would be impossible takes logger a little bit longer to get done."
I think many of the QP's live this life.
Your still nominated.
A lot of the "worker bees" in the NGOs are good people doing genuinely useful humanitarian labors. Now if something could only be done about the politics of their bosses and mouthpieces. My .02 - Peregrino
Agree completely, they are doing good work, but the worker bees' rhetoric is hard to take, too. I treat conversations with them like Sunday dinner at Granny's house: no discussion of politics. Makes things go smoother. Having said that, I have lately noticed a shift away from "magic cookie land" towards the world the rest of us live in. Stints in Darfur, recent brushes with Maoist rebels, etc. have caused a couple of them to lurch away from their org's official positions. One woman I know guiltily admitted to me that she was beginning to think the people in Darfur had the right to defend themselves. Imagine!
frostfire
05-10-2006, 09:19
hope this is relevant...albeit quite expensive
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/rough/2005/10/south_africa_th.html
got this from the frontline thread in general discussion. Perhaps it'd be a useful reference somewhere, sometime in the future.
Hey, just stumbled onto this ICW the welder.
An underhood heat exchanger that will let you get water heated by your vehicle engine. Comes in handy if your windmill is taking longer to build than you thought and you brought an XX along for advice.:eek: :munchin
http://www.premierpowerwelder.com/underhood/underhood.html
TR
Great Idea TR - the simple things that make life easy :)
hope this is relevant...albeit quite expensive
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/rough/2005/10/south_africa_th.html
got this from the frontline thread in general discussion. Perhaps it'd be a useful reference somewhere, sometime in the future.
Frost - Good idea for a school yard just about anywhere!! The kids can play with it while the pump water for the school tanks.
Check this out MtnGoat, but only if you have an afternoon to waste...
The hippo water roller (http://www.hipporoller.org/?Task=system&CategoryID=7706&HeadingText=Food+Security) is cool, the irrigation system especially.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriate_technology
mugwump
I like what I see :D
Next week I can look at it better, more time on my hands. PSC Leave and all :munchin
Start looking for Affordable Portable Irrigation Systems or farms
Thanks!!
Appropriate technology.. So many other "things" that should be APPROPRIATE... for most SA or a good ideas but those are other threads.
hope this is relevant...albeit quite expensive
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/rough/2005/10/south_africa_th.html
got this from the frontline thread in general discussion. Perhaps it'd be a useful reference somewhere, sometime in the future.
Was wondering if anyone has used anything along these lines before. Saw this is Kenya in 2007 and I thought it was great. A South African Company makes them and I'm looking at getting some.
Also looking at getting a wind mill water pump. Something along the Old west style Windmills. WESTERNWINDMILLS (http://www.westernwindmills.com/page/1139442)
Looking for Plans or "HomeMade" Windmills or water pumps again.
I have not tried this, but if I was deployed I would try it out.
Please pictures if anyone tries it out.
http://m.instructables.com/id/Hydraulic-Ram-Pump/
Golf1echo
03-06-2015, 08:32
Mt Goat, the house I bought in WNC had a water ram as did many of the houses in the area at one time. That system had a cinder block box near the creek that gathered water from a side spring, water then was piped down into the ram IIRC for every three units one got pushed vertical ( about 25' ) up to the house. The only insulation I saw was where the pipe was buried so I suppose it to be more of a 3 season system unless insulated. Unfortunately the previous owner gave the ram away other wise I would have used it for irrigation.
Mt Goat, the house I bought in WNC had a water ram as did many of the houses in the area at one time. That system had a cinder block box near the creek that gathered water from a side spring, water then was piped down into the ram IIRC for every three units one got pushed vertical ( about 25' ) up to the house. The only insulation I saw was where the pipe was buried so I suppose it to be more of a 3 season system unless insulated. Unfortunately the previous owner gave the ram away other wise I would have used it for irrigation.
That's kool, but sucks that the last owner got rid of it. Well you have plans here, so you can make one for your garden.
Noah Werka
04-09-2015, 14:53
Ram Pump (http://m.instructables.com/id/Hydraulic-Ram-Pump/)
Ram Pump Expanded (http://www.clemson.edu/irrig/Equip/ram.htm)
Noah W