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APLP
04-16-2006, 11:27
I just spent some time with L/E folks who had a hard time incapacitating a certain pit bull upon building entry. Primary entry weapons were 11.5 inch 1/7 Colt carbines. The pit bull who charged dash 2 through the door was shot in the head at close distance. The bullet penetrated through and through without stopping the dog. Two additional rounds were fired from another officer who hit the pit in the chest and hips. Both the second and third Hornady Tap bullets over penetrated the animal and again failed to incapacitate. The animal continued to run through the length of the house several times after all three impacts until eventually bleeding out. The SWAT team members stated that it was a little distracting to have the animal not incapacitated while trying to search, clear, and detain subject individuals inside the structure.

All three of the 5.56 rounds over penetrated the animal. The first 5.56 round impacting the animal was advertised as a min penetration fragmenting bullet whose performance in ballistic gelatin was demonstrated with satisfaction to the department. The Hornady TAP 5.56 rounds also over penetrated when fired at short distance to the target without stopping the animal. The department is now reviewing the use of their duty ammunition whose performance failed to perform as advertised when impacting living tissue. A five million dollar law suit was filed by the owner of the animal. The photo's of the crime scene show walls and floors through out the structure graphically sprayed with blood from the wounded animal.

This type of inability to immediately incapacitate threatening animals with conventional rifle and handgun law enforcement duty ammunition seems to be a common problem for many law enforcement officers I have talked with. In addition to over penetration liability issues within a structure, wounded animals that run off down the neighborhood street after being shot by responding officers create an additional liability to the department. The 3 year old girl who lives in the house on the corner that opens her arms wide and hollers here doggy doggy, just might loose an arm or leg when she runs out to give him a big hug.

NousDefionsDoc
04-16-2006, 11:54
Dogs are hard to KIA. And hard to hit.

Did they autopsy the animal after?

100% instant incapacitation is a myth. Good point about wounded animals.

I'm not LEO, but I think having Officer Big Dude smother them with a bomb blanket would be better than shooting with small arms.

NousDefionsDoc
04-16-2006, 12:03
Here you can see why getting a good hit is hard:

You almost have to be lying down or standing behind to get a heart or control tower shot.

casey
04-16-2006, 12:44
Ran into this problem years ago when a certain groups of Dominicans and Jamacians would buy trained Rottweilers (for 5 to 7 thousand) to guard their stash houses. The narcotics guys were scared to death when making their buys for warrants. Since we were operating in a very metro environment we changed up to have the first guy in use 00 buck. Problem was you had to clear, & advance and still pay attention for these "lions" who made very little sound. So the first in usually became the meat and moved to target. We hit one of their bigger houses for our narcotics team - I was lead in when I saw the Rottie heading in from a straight thru kitchen area. The dog was on me in just about three leaps and even though I saw him (or her) it never made a GD sound. Hit it about 18 inches away and took the entire left side of its head off - I mean teeth, eye , ear et al. The dog spun around and sat there attempting to lick its face with what was left of its tongue. Later our Humane Services took the dog to a good vet hospital who put it down. It was then that I learned about these amazing animals and how they were bred by the Romans etc.

The weird common denominator to all these dog shooting jobs was that it seemed that everyone in the house wanted to fight like mad with the police, and of course only the force neccesary to have them comply was utilized. Eventually, these groups stopped using these magnificent creatures for some unknown reason. Perhaps they had time to reflect during their long term hospital recuperations and therapy............its beyond me..........

APLP
04-16-2006, 13:13
Here you can see why getting a good hit is hard:

You almost have to be lying down or standing behind to get a heart or control tower shot.

Thanks for the chart. No necropsies were performed, just examined entry and exit wounds. The big surprise for the folks that had to shoot the pit bull was they had been told the duty ammo they recently purchased provided the best chance of effective bullet fragmentation based on gelatin profiles. The first 5.56impact to the head was slightly high dead center of both eyes and the exit was located behind the ears upper neck region. This round was a compressed ICC frangible bullet construction. The TAP 5.56 thoracic and rear appendage entry and exit wounds were reported to be approximate bullet diameter. Both hind quarter rear legs appeared to have no structural damage.

I am hoping that there might be some additional data that could be posted on the more secure sections of PS in the next week which might provide some comparative tissue destruction performance between different ammo constructions.

Roguish Lawyer
04-16-2006, 13:17
Dogs are hard to KIA. And hard to hit.

I hear poodles are especially tough to take out. :D

Pete
04-16-2006, 13:41
I hear poodles are especially tough to take out. :D

I wear size 13 boots, cruuNCH.

Pete

SF18C
04-16-2006, 13:42
I had run into this same problem many years ago. While working in Southern Iraq and Kuwait during Desert Storm we always seem to run into large, stray and very rabid dogs (we likened it to the fact that they must have been eating dead Iraqis, but I don't know how true that was). We would try to shoot them with 5.56 and 9mm rounds but those basterds would not die unless it was an up-close total head shot. We ended up using 7.62 but from an M60 to did bring 'em down (my unit didn’t have sniper rifles). I always figured it had something to do with how a dog was built because 5.56 didn't seem to faze them.

For the record, I hated shooting dogs but those suckas was mean!

gunnerjohn
04-16-2006, 14:14
This reminds me of a conversation I had with a LEO instructor friend of mine. He was describing the difficulties of canine suppression on tactical assaults of the Meth and MJ houses. The general conclusion was that a flash bang was the best devise to use on the dog. The extreme overload to the canines accute senses was too much to handle. He stated that after a flash bang went off the dog tended to head to the next county.
One of the houses they hit over near the coast had a very large rott. When they approached the front porch they tossed the flash bang directly at the dog. The rott curiously looked at the device for a second, then lights out. 6 months later, they served another warrant on the same house.(Nobody said cooks or growers were rocket scientists) When the black clad assault team rounded the corner, the same rott was on the same porch. The dog saw the team, took off and jumped in the river heading downstream. Guess the dog was smarter than its owners.

casey
04-16-2006, 17:42
This reminds me of a conversation I had with a LEO instructor friend of mine. He was describing the difficulties of canine suppression on tactical assaults of the Meth and MJ houses. The general conclusion was that a flash bang was the best devise to use on the dog.

egods - Meth house + flashbang = a very possible (unwanted) bigger bang

In some cases, I've seen so called "attack" trained dogs just simply dash around confused and then egress. I have never seen any small arms/rifle ammo used on a determined dog attack even slow it down - this includes all kinds of dog repellant or pepper sprays. I have seen plenty of dog shooting by officers who were suprised at just how many shots they fired, how many times the dog was hit, and where some of the rounds that missed or passed thru wound up. The best we've found is a danger close 00 buck round for control and shot placement. Usually it was fired in a sharp downward angle with no downrange problems - unless you are the toads living in the apartment below......

tracer
04-17-2006, 20:30
I don't have any residential buildings in my AO so I can't comment from experience. Has the topic of blunt trauma been covered with anyones department? I was thinking something along the lines of a beanbag 12ga round. What would be the the short/long term effects to the dog? Would it stop the dogs actions long enough for the tac team to finish their assault at least?
About the only possitive thing I could think of (without testing), would be you wouldn't have to worry about the beanbag overpenetrating walls or the floor and going into the apartment below or next door like the 00buck might.
I hope if this doesn't work, it would at least give someone a good idea for something that might.

ZoneOne
04-18-2006, 00:47
Members of the Tallahassee police have used Tasers w/ great effect.

Animal Control was called to an aggressive pitbull and upon arival the Animal Control officer was forced into her truck by the dog. The TPD officer arrived and tazed it, they then put the dog in the truck.


I guess it depends on the situation, but I know for a fact I've seen tazers mounted on the bottom of shotguns and rifles so they could be utilized during an entry. (For Law Enforcement)

Warrior-Mentor
04-18-2006, 18:39
Members of the Tallahassee police have used Tasers w/ great effect. The TPD officer arrived and tazed it, they then put the dog in the truck.


Would like to have seen that video.

ZoneOne
04-18-2006, 20:29
Here's a little bit more info on the use of Tasers against Animals

While they claim their product isn't designed to be used on animals, there are other reports that it works effectively againt them.

http://www.taser.com/law/product_info/support/01.htm

Edit : I'm searching for a video, they mention a VHS of one of the events available.

CoLawman
04-18-2006, 22:42
Here's a little bit more info on the use of Tasers against Animals

While they claim their product isn't designed to be used on animals, there are other reports that it works effectively againt them.

http://www.taser.com/law/product_info/support/01.htm

Edit : I'm searching for a video, they mention a VHS of one of the events available.

I clearly remember using cattle prods on cows at a feedlot. They didn't produce the voltage of a Tazer.........but it sure got the cows moving and bellowing! I assume the manufacturers of the Tazer are concerned about the lethality when used against a dog, rather than the effectiveness! Heck those invisible fences work against dogs! Volts are Volts regardless of the generator.
Perhaps the Tazer produces to many amps.

ZoneOne
04-19-2006, 15:04
I haven't heard of a Taser killing a dog yet, but it might be that I'm just not listening hard enough.

I have heard it has had lethal effects on humans, but the majority of cases involve suspects w/ heart conditions and other health problems prior to being "tazed"

jbour13
04-19-2006, 17:55
I like NDD's bomb blanket idea. I'd just hate it if chomper was keen and got loose only to get a mouth full of tactical ass! :D

Cattle prods are always fun. Especially on city folk. Had a friend that was always touching the fence, took the prod, placed it on the wire to see if the current was enough to give him a jolt. It was. :eek: I grew up on a cattle farm in Missouri, I've seen and done worse.

vsvo
04-20-2006, 09:41
Cattle prods are always fun. Especially on city folk.
As a city boy, I just wanted to thank you for not bringing that thing along with your AR to our shoot!:D

jbour13
04-20-2006, 10:54
As a city boy, I just wanted to thank you for not bringing that thing along with your AR to our shoot!:D

First ones free.....:D

Besides it seems that you're an honorary redneck.

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10459&page=2

vsvo
04-20-2006, 11:57
Besides it seems that you're an honorary redneck.


Honorary I'll gladly accept, although I claim no true creds - no matter what my wife thinks!

whit
05-06-2006, 12:45
(Tasers)...
While they claim their product isn't designed to be used on animals, there are other reports that it works effectively againt them.


***************
It might work just fine, and in a lot of situations a Taser would be great. But a raid is not one of those places for two reasons:

1. Tasers occasionally fail. One of my friends in a Florida dept. had his fail (ctg. popped out or somesuch; don't recall exactly) and one of his deputies ended up having to shoot the guy instead.

2. If you're busy operating the Taser whilst the subject is shooting you, the dog has done it's job. They are not "fire and forget".

Similar to other posts here, 9mm and 5.56 just do not incapacitate a determined dog quickly enough, IME. Even half a mag of hollowpoints from a canned MP5 take awhile. Pity you cannot shoot the jerks who deploy these poor critters. And even buckshot will sing right through a wall, etc.

I would suggest 12-ga. *frangible* slug. Total energy dump and minimal risk of overpenetration. Many of the common Breaching slugs (like AVON) will work, and have the advantage that if someone pops up firing at you, it'll work on them as well.
FWIW...