View Full Version : Basic Gone Soft
Army Times has an article with the same title, but their interpretation of results from this new approach to training is the opposite of what is written here.
http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?page=article&id=2071
I have mixed feelings about it.
My view is that Basic should be hard. Real hard, more like the USMC boot camp. It should shock all the "Civilian" out of the boys and girls.
You never know the measure of a person until you see them stressed out to the max. Hate to have a bad event in the middle of nowhere at O'dark thirty with somebody who has to perform and do it "NOW".
Towards the end of my cycle I started hearing about these experimental companies going "soft". I was a bit shocked as it was straight hell where I was at. I thought it was the standard only to find out we were being extinct. Some of what I went through was nightmarish, but I would not change it.
tyrsnbdr
04-15-2006, 02:27
This softer Basic Training is just pushing the problem children onto the war fighting units. My Company, on average, is chaptering 30% on first term soldiers for problems that should have been taken care of at IET.
This is time taken away from all the Jr Officers, and Senior NCOs that should be using their time to train the unit for combat.
CDRODA396
04-15-2006, 08:55
This article is much better than the Army Times' version. Unfortunately, this softening has been a trend for a long time and is a sad reflection of our kinder, softer, sweeter, gentler, I'm OK, You're OK, Politically Correct society.
It really boils down to if we weed out less in BCT/AIT, we save huge money, billions according to one article, but wind up handing the problem of dealing with those who arent cut out for the army to the platoon leaders/company commanders who must now build mammoth chapter packets to boot them out, detracting from where their focus should be, keeping their soldiers and themselves alive while killing insurgents, or worse, keeping the substandard troops in positions that wont get anyone killed and passing them on to the next unit without kicking them out until they find themselves promoted and in charge of good soldiers...its a no win situation.
This article is much better than the Army Times' version. Unfortunately, this softening has been a trend for a long time and is a sad reflection of our kinder, softer, sweeter, gentler, I'm OK, You're OK, Politically Correct society.
It really boils down to if we weed out less in BCT/AIT, we save huge money, billions according to one article, but wind up handing the problem of dealing with those who arent cut out for the army to the platoon leaders/company commanders who must now build mammoth chapter packets to boot them out, detracting from where their focus should be, keeping their soldiers and themselves alive while killing insurgents, or worse, keeping the substandard troops in positions that wont get anyone killed and passing them on to the next unit without kicking them out until they find themselves promoted and in charge of good soldiers...its a no win situation.
I'm going through AIT with some soldiers that leave me wondering if they even went through BCT, or if they just took it by correspondence. The big joke between myself and my buddies is to just write up the chapter packets and drop them in our Drill Sergeant's inbox.
As a linguist, I've been in IET since November 03. I have visually seen the quality of the average recruit drop. It wasn't as evident in language school, but now that I'm back with kids recently out of basic... it's a real eye opener.
Has TRADOC already forgotten the 507th Maintenance Company's stellar performance in combat? Having witnessed the product of lightened, less stress basic training in Camp Virginia and in Southern Iraq circa spring '03, I would say that this watering down of BCT even further is only get more good people KILLED. How many more troops have to die before someone GETS IT?
The Reaper
04-15-2006, 10:13
Has TRADOC already forgotten the 507th Maintenance Company's stellar performance in combat? Having witnessed the product of lightened, less stress basic training in Camp Virginia and in Southern Iraq circa spring '03, I would say that this watering down of BCT even further is only get more good people KILLED. How many more troops have to die before someone GETS IT?
Ahh, but you see, the 507th was not a TRADOC unit. They were a CENTCOM unit, out of FORSCOM.
The failure of soldiers on the battlefield is not a TRADOC failure, since TRADOC has no units engaged in combat.
Not TRADOC's problems, once they are passed on the TO&E units.
This will not be fixed till the warfighters demand something be done, and TRADOC gets the quality input, time, and resources needed to realistically train combat soldiers.
TR
Excellent point TR,
If the TO&E unit's NCO's and Officers do not maintain a high standard of training at their respective units, it does not matter what kind of troops TRADOC hands them.
You've all seen it at one point or another: recruiter goes to local high school, meets everybody that took the ASVAB. Wants to get the high scoring kids, but they're not really interested so hes left with that guy who sat in the corner in your English class that everyone made fun of cause he couldn't read all that well and kind of had a speach impediment. Not exactly Soldier of the year, but the recruiter thinks, "hey, I'll put him in and make my quota and when he gets to basic he'll wash out. First sergeant will leave me alone and I can go home early the rest of the week..."
Fast forward to basic: the drill sergeant knows this guy can't do a single correct pushup. He had to be drug up warrior tower by the 1SG, SDS, and another DS, and then still was too scared to go over the side. SOMEHOW, the day before he would have been recycled he mysteriously passes his PT test... hmmm. 1SG says, "oh well, we'll push 'em through to make our percentage and his unit will sort him out."
And today: you've got a fat body running around on a permanent profile milking the army for everything they can. Shamming out of every possible assignment, and complaining about what little work they do have to do. When it comes time to train, they either have an appointment, are hurt, OR BOTH, or pull out their profile that says, "I'm a little girl and I can't hold my rifle up to my shoulder... boo hoo." :boohoo
So, the rest of us are left to carry their share of the load (which normally isn't too much unless your a staff sergeant pretending to be a squad leader... ha) Of course then we turn on the t.v. and hear, "You go to war with the army you have..." So the question then is, why do we still have them?! If they can't even carry they're freakin weapon, or run, or jump out of a truck should the situation call for it, why are they still here?! At least send them to work in PAC or something....
Just my opinion...
Sad but true. The Army may be eliminating the only way to "render the fat".:lifter
hermitcrab
04-15-2006, 18:23
This is something that has concerned me ever since I received my orders to Ft. Jackson for BCT. I had been assuming that I would be heading to Benning so I was less concerned. My recruiter basicly told me to volunteer for everything and if someone else gets smoked to drop down with them.
My daughter joined last November and completed BCT at Ft. Leonard Wood in January. She said it was like summer camp and that they didn't do enough PT which surprised me. It was easy for her and she even said many times "I thought it would be tougher". Maybe coming from her upbringing and her old mans background it was easy for her but many of her classmates washed out and couldn't hack it. Now she is finishing her medic course and then onto the nursing program and she says it's still not hard but they make them clean the barracks alot...that's the hardest thing they do and she laughs at that!
The sad reality is that these kids (mine being one of them) will be in combat sooner rather than later and it will be absolutley imperative those officers and NCO's in charge don't screw up and waste lives due to incompetence.
Daver out
This is something that has concerned me ever since I received my orders to Ft. Jackson for BCT. I had been assuming that I would be heading to Benning so I was less concerned. My recruiter basicly told me to volunteer for everything and if someone else gets smoked to drop down with them.Relaxin Jackson:boohoo. Hey even at Benning I've seen it. I remember being on like week 10 or something, and some new guys came from 30th AG (reception). It was like a picnic. We were watching and listening as they got their first impression of the Drills, and OSUT. It was so weak I almost wanted to cry. They were doing like four pushups, get up, get a pat on the bottom lecture, then four more. Benning ain't the same anymore. I don't think the Army finds 25% fallout rate acceptable. I think it should be factored in. If the Drills aren't as tough as they need to be, too many men/boys that aren't ready get through. At the unit it is a nightmare. We don't have time to square some of these soldiers away. Some will be going downrange with little more than they got at basic, which was mediocre at best. Some cycles have even been shortened as if they don't speed through the training fast enough. I know I would have liked to get more training in many areas, but it was left to my unit. God help us all.
I wish I could say that was the end of it, but this "give them a hug and tell them it's ok" mentality continues on into the real army too. I thought after I got to my unit things would get better.... haha, jokes on me! :D
I can't really speak to Basic Training, but I can comment at what I have seen locally. We had a troop that clearly needed to be tossed out of the Army for the good of the Army.
Here was just a few of the infractions that I knew about or observed first hand:
1. Well over the weight standards (by 50lbs)
2. Dereliction of duty (falling asleep while on shift) I (as a civilian) try to push for an Article 15 because I was the supervisor of the shop when this happened, but it did not go that way!
3. Absent with out leave for several days multiple times. They guy would just not show up to work days on end!
4. Physical fights with his NCOs and Civilian counterparts.
5. Multiple failed PT exams.
Did the unit or it CSM recommend discharge, NO they promoted him!!!!
He has went from an E-1 dirt bag to a E-4 bigger dirt bag in less than 2 years, also the CSM is pushing for the Promotion board!
Some days I feel very sorry for the Army!
That is far beyond my comprehension.:confused: These sort of occurances are an enigma. Sometimes the guy that is squared away can't get promoted. ???:confused:
This will not be fixed till the warfighters demand something be done, and TRADOC gets the quality input, time, and resources needed to realistically train combat soldiers.
TR
Sir, do you think it is possible to kick start that process?
Martin
One up One down
04-16-2006, 09:31
I'm another one fresh out of basic, graduated September 17th. I was at Fort Jackson, and I'll agree it was too easy. Luckily I had great drill sergeants who inspired, and still inspire me, to do above the minimum expected. But, I saw more than a few people who I was stunned they graduated. Either they were on profile for over half of basic, or fell out of marches, what be it they shouldn't have graduated and did. If you fell out of a ruck, you made it up on a track with an empty sack. I wish I was kidding. AIT was different I'm in an MOS that puts the burden on intelligence to get through AIT, and some of the people shouldn't have been there to start with, and shouldn't have graduated at the end. But there they are getting pushed through. Now that I'm at my unit, a 5 man station, I'm stuck with one of those ones who shouldn't have made it through AIT, and I spend a good deal of my time correcting him or showing him how to do it properly, i.e. how he was trained! If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't have been at Jackson for Basic, I would've sucked it up and asked for Benning or Know, I believe I would be a higher level soldier now.
One up One down...You give me hope that I may be able to grow old with a professional military defending my freedom! Keep up enforcing the standards and maybe your persistence will square him away.
TFM...I swear to you it is all true! I couldn't even begin to make up a story as bad as SPC Maz the Spaz!
BondWells
04-20-2006, 21:26
I just attended my son's graduation from OSUT at FT Benning. He is in 18X pipeline. His company was primarily 18X, and it showed. They had little respect for other companies, who were gettng passes, etc early in basic, when their group got nothing till much later. A very impressive group, overall. They drove themselves hard, and the DIs drove them harder. Unfortunately a significant number - I think he said 39, dropped their contracts as a result of momma complaining. Obviously that is for the best. Now he is in airborne and complaining about how easy it is. So he and his buddies are doing extra PT and rucking in the evening. I went thru 30 years ago and I thought it was easy, but not as laid back as he describes. When I dropped him off I saw some fat Captains in the class - but he said a bunch failed the PT test MINIMUMS on day one - for shame. Told him to use the time to heal up and get his legs in better shape (on his own time). The good news is in three weeks I will pin the wings I received in '76 on him - as bloodwings! :lifter
Now he is in airborne and complaining about how easy it is. So he and his buddies are doing extra PT and rucking in the evening. I went thru 30 years ago and I thought it was easy, but not as laid back as he describes. When I dropped him off I saw some fat Captains in the class - but he said a bunch failed the PT test MINIMUMS on day one - for shame. Told him to use the time to heal up and get his legs in better shape (on his own time). The good news is in three weeks I will pin the wings I received in '76 on him - as bloodwings! :lifter
BondWells
I had my nephew go through Airborne School in September. He was under a RIP Contract, but talking to him he was also surprised on how easy Airborne School was. I told this is the real Army. I was really surprised on how Airborne School got rid of the Gig Pit, and some of the "other" things.:boohoo
I too did the Blood Wings. They do this speech on how by a DOD policy the are illegal. WHATEVER. The black Hats from what I saw Can't do bloodwings. I had one "sitting" over me. I was in Uniform, and the Wife was like "Don't you get in trouble". Once again WHATEVER. :lifter
Congrad on your SON.
ALL of my air assault class got blood wings. The AASLT Sgt.s were the ones that started it. Pin 'em on then a good punch to the chest (no backs of course). Then we had to stand in front of the whole company while everyone filed by and gave us a hit, do 10 to the wind and dig our coin out of the dirt with our mouth, and that was just last year. Do they really not do that at Airborne school? Thought that was part of the "right of passage."
Was AASLT (or ABN within the past 30 or so years, for that matter) really so challenging a course that bloodwings and other associated reindeer games seemed to be a fitting graduation celebration?
FWIW, I went to ABN School 15 years ago and had to do PT in my off-time to stay in shape, so it sounds like not much has really changed, to be truthful.
Warrior-Mentor
04-21-2006, 14:38
We got bloodwings in '88 when I went through Abn School.
Can't remember getting them at Air Assault in '89...do remember thinking how hard they were trying to imitate Airborne School and thinking it was a joke (the imitation part, not the training itself).
Double timing around during the day, Jump School used to make us say "Airborne" every time the left foot hit the ground.
Air Assault attempted same, except people would have fun with it...
"Air Assault..."
"Table Salt..."
"Willie Gault..."
"Pole Vault..."
"Air Insult..."
Stupid stuff that is funny years later.
BondWells
04-21-2006, 19:18
bloodwings might be mickey mouse to some...but these were mine and I'll pass them on with meaning, enthusiam, and a tradition he'll honor. The course isn't the point at least for me - it is passing my original wings onto my son. He also told me only a few come off the jump tower in Tower week - they don't require all to do it...instead they spend extra time on the swing landing trainer.:boohoo ...too bad - the tower was fun..but....I remember all the times they told us, when you feel your feet hit the ground, do your PLF - yeah right - by that time I had my knees in my face.... :)
Warrior-Mentor
04-21-2006, 20:13
I admit. I got over...was one of the guys who never went off the tower. Course the fact that we had a knuckle head get stuck in the tower and eat most of an afternoon getting him down had something to do with it.
The tower always struck me as more of a carnival ride than actual training.
Some SGM years ago told another SGM:
"I'll bet your Harley that I can get the US Army to build a giant carnival ride and call it training.
I'll tell the Officers it is realistic training using futuristic technology and they'll slurp it up."
"You're on."
...and that's how I think the tower was started. :cool:
...The tower always struck me as more of a carnival ride than actual training. ....
The tower was a ride for, I think, the world fair.
I got to Jump School right at the start of the 4th of July weekend in 74. The only detail I pulled was at the jump tower that weekend for the open house.
We, the detail, were at the tower with the cables. IIRC there were four cables around the skirt and the lift cable. They would haul the parachute, with a bench seat no less, to the top of the tower and un-break the lift cable. The parachute would come down guided by four rings attached to the guide cables and stop with the seat about 3 feet from the ground.
If small kids wanted to ride but the parents didn't we were detailed to ride with the kids. We made many rides to the top that day.
Tower week had nothing for a few of us.
Warrior-Mentor
04-21-2006, 20:38
The story continues...
"All right SGM, you won the bet. Double or nothing. I'll bet I can get the entire class of jump school students to chant...
'HIT THE HOLE POLEMAN, HIT THE HOLE.'
and no one will file a sexual harrassment complaint."
"This I gotta see. You're on..."
More proof that Airborne school was actually founded just to amuse two SGMs before they retired. :cool:
bloodwings might be mickey mouse to some...but these were mine and I'll pass them on with meaning, enthusiam, and a tradition he'll honor. The course isn't the point at least for me - it is passing my original wings onto my son.
Bondwell - It is a get Honor and Tradition pinning of the wings onto our family members. I knew this from being down there in Sept. The whole Tradition thing - its great and it looks really good. They only let Father & Son, so me being an Uncle - We were a No GO. When they call all of the Students Fathers or Grandfathers, I step up and walked out. That's when my wife said, "Don't you get in Trouble". My Nephew wasn't out front, so I had to yell his name out. We both have the same last name, his my Brothers son. So of course I had BlackHats looking at me along with the 1SG coming up to me and looking at my uniform. It was and is a great feeling to pin his wing onto his chest. I know its something that he & I will remember for sometime. Maybe one day It will me doing what your doing one day to my Son. :D
FYI - I had to fly out that Sunday to go TDY. (Set my orders up the right way) :p My Family had to drive back to Bragg themselves. So does it matter? Hell Yes! Be proud Dad :lifter
I agree--its a very meaningful tradition, and if I ever have the opportunity I'll be bursting with pride. However, I'll be sure to remember to affix the clutch-backs (or damnits, to some) after pinning on whatever insignia it is.
Gentlemen,
I can concur on all accounts. I graduated from C 2-54 at Benning this last November. I was, to say the least, disapointed. To say it was a breeze was an understatement. We were rarely smoked and our platoon ran rampant with discipline problems (which carried over after graduation, I kept up with a few of my buddies. One guy from our platoon was busted with cocaine on base, another recieved a DUI a month after graduation).
I'd say the scariest thing I saw was weapons qual. There were a handful of joes that couldnt shoot (we were all infantry, by the way). I remember this one pvt was shooting all day and still hadn't qualed and it was getting late. One of the drills took a weapon from a pvt to go "shooting for fun". I was in the lane behind the drill and about halfway through that interation I realized the Drill was shooting in the wrong lane - at the target for the pvt who couldnt qual.
So the Drills were pushing a pvt through basic, to an infantry unit, who couldnt shoot. I could ramble on for hours, but I'll go back to lurking now.
PFC Fonz
GhostInTheShell
04-24-2006, 21:41
It makes me uneasy knowing that in just about a month, I'm going to be entering BCT, where I was hoping to get the best starter training I could get. Granted, I'm going to Benning, so I shouldn't be off too horribly, but thank god I'm 18x. I'm not going to have to deal with being in a squad full of fat bodies that couldn't hit a target at 20 meters. Instead, I'll have the luck of getting trained by QP's to become a QP, so that I can actually say that my training was tough.
What is the Army doing? Soon, we're not going to have a generation of warriors...we're going to have a generation of body bag stuffers. I hate to say it, but if they're going to go soft in the training, how are these men going to fight when they've got people trying to kill them? They're not going to know how to move, how to shoot, how to defend themselves, or even how to handle the pressure of the battlezon. Heck, they're not even going to have the strength to haul their flabby butts over a wall while they're running away screaming, asking how to turn the safety on their M16's off. I'd laugh, but I can't even find this funny. It is seriously disturbing.
In my opinion, military training, no matter what branch, should be the most grueling, unbelievably difficult training that you can go through. From basic to OSUT or AIT, you should be so conditioned that getting thrown into a conflict should seem like a break.
I know I've only got a few posts on here, and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, but Sirs and Sergeants, I had to say it.
With the utmost respect,
-K.
ShotgunEnema,
If they don't feel the pain in basic, they should feel it at their unit. If you pay attention, you should be competent when you graduate, and the NCOs at your unit will make you profficient. IMHO
TFM
Infantry OSUT in '94...We did some serious PT and the stress was constantly factored in....After graduation 32 of us were on holdover waiting for the next class at ABN school; RIP and ABN contracts.
Once at ABN school we couldn't get over how easy it was. Guess our DS(s) did their job.
As for the bloodwings. After my cherry blast the CO, XO, 1SG, and all the JMs pounded in my wings; next came my team. All together....15 times. Then we had a keg party. Tradition!!
Dayem!! I never got no blood wings.:rolleyes:
Oh well!! As for the carnival ride, I guess it was fun in 100+ deg weather and 90% humidity. It was so boreing that we did millions of push ups waiting our turn and them if you were a clown and gave out with a rebel yell like I did, you can add two million deep knee bends at every pause up the stairs while wearing harness, reserve and combat pack.
I learned something a long time ago. After finishing any training it was easy and anyone who came after was a pussy.:p
As for blood wings, I think I may be able to dind better ways to prove one's manhood.
Sorry to be in the minority but aren't I always?;)
Airborne
04-28-2006, 14:21
I graduated November 2004 from B Co 2/47 Ft. Benning; I can tell you it wasn’t a picnic at all. I had great DS and a lot of smoke. I think it varies between Companies; my first year in the Army was spent in COSCOM so I know all about the turds. Thankfully I am in a much better place and am surrounded by Quiet Professionals, and COMMO Gods. But I am still thankful I was able to spend some time in COSCOM, I learned a lot about a side of the Army I never want to see again. I did have some great NCOs’ who truly took care of me and shielded me from a lot of the bull that other people had to deal with; I just hope they were able to escape!
Audie Murphy thought Basic Training was easy too.
One of his letters home to his sister stated that compared to sharecropping, Basic was easy because you got to sleep in until 0400 hrs and got to eat three meals a day. :)
Doc
Dayem!! I never got no blood wings.:rolleyes:
Oh well!! As for the carnival ride, I guess it was fun in 100+ deg weather and 90% humidity. It was so boreing that we did millions of push ups waiting our turn and them if you were a clown and gave out with a rebel yell like I did, you can add two million deep knee bends at every pause up the stairs while wearing harness, reserve and combat pack.
I learned something a long time ago. After finishing any training it was easy and anyone who came after was a pussy.
As for blood wings, I think I may be able to find better ways to prove one's manhood.
Sorry to be in the minority but aren't I always?
I never got no blood wings either.:rolleyes:
Mine was the last hard class at jump school:p It's been almost 40 years!:eek:
I'm with you (the minority team) on the practice of blood wings and viewing the infamous Force Recon tapes only reinforced that belief.
GulfVSAR
05-03-2006, 04:35
Wow. I went to OSUT at benning in early 2002. Without giving much thought to how the training was then, I never particularly felt like my drill sergeants were going "soft" on us. When we did our 25 mile "bayonet" road march, and it started raining "of course", the drill sergeants politely informed us that their prayers to the Rakkasan rain god had been answered, and that we should be thankful. Then they through mortar sims at us.
Last month a close friend (11b) of mine had gone to benning for a drill and told me that the 25 mile road march was no-longer being done, the farthest is now 15, that the drill sergeants were being forced to be nice, that the basic training privates got all brand new acu's with all the RFI gear to go with it, they get all sunday off and light training on saturdays, etc.
I feel bad now, I thought he was pulling my chain and we got a little heated in our argument.
Jack Moroney (RIP)
05-03-2006, 05:09
Mine was the last hard class at jump school:p It's been almost 40 years!
You young pups-been over 40 years for me!
You young pups-been over 40 years for me!
43 here!! IIRC ours was the last 4 week cycle at Benning -- not including PC&M week.:p
Spartan359
05-03-2006, 07:06
Can a squid participate in this conversation? Army basic isn't the only one. Navy basic has changed dramatically as well. For one they don't wear boots anymore. Sunday is pretty much a day off to call home, watch tv and other bs. They have however gone from basic marksmanship with compressed air and lasers to REAL rifles. Those sissy ass stress cards are in effect as well. Several standards for battle stations have been lowered if not disappeared. I think the biggest thing that made me grin when I went through it a few years ago was the heat index. A black flag day was in the low 90's. IF THAT! Uniform of the day during black flag days......shorts and t-shirts. I'm not gonna lie to you gentlemen...I didn't go through a last hard basic. Cause there never was one. :D
Team Sergeant
05-03-2006, 07:25
Considering two thirds of our population are FAT, very FAT or Morbidly FAT, I do not find it difficult to make the “Let’s make everything easier” leap.
TS
Bruce Long
05-03-2006, 07:53
Training must be hard to survive in combat. Standards should not be lowered.
SGM 18Z5M (Retired)
Training must be hard to survive in combat. Standards should not be lowered.
SGM 18Z5M (Retired)
From what I have seen our troops are doing as well or better than in the past. This seems to belie some comments in reference to training.
Another Navy perspective albeit from 27 years ago was that boot camp was pretty easy. None of the stuff the Army and Marine recruits went through. Weapons training consisted of 1/2 day familiarization with the 1911 then firing 5-10 rounds with a .22 in a 1911 frame. The bulk of our time was spent drilling on the grinder or in class. PT everyday was a piece of cake. Just running and calisthenics. One thing San Diego did have was an impressive fire fighting school built for the fleet that the recruits used as well. That was the most realistic training we had. Toward the end of boot camp the SEALs would come over to the PT area looking for volunteers and administering PT tests for BUD/S. We had one guy volunteer that passed the test but didn't get to go to BUD/S right away. He did go a few years later and graduated in Class 125 went on to be a plankowner at ST-8 and spent a bunch of time at ST-5. He retired just a couple of years ago. Across the fence from the Navy boot camp PT area was the Marine Corp boot camp PT area. Much slinging of epithets. Both of those commands closed some years ago.
'Gangs claim their turf in Iraq' (http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-gangs01.html)
M
Warrior-Mentor
05-06-2006, 18:39
How can a recruiter, in good faith, put a gang member in the Army? I'd publicly fry any recruiter convicted of putting gang members in. Someone finds a gang member? Trigger an investigation ...it's easy enough to trace back to which recruiter put him or her in...
That would help put an end to this crap.
The Reaper
05-06-2006, 18:47
We were having to screen some of them out at SFAS.
Not too many good reasons for an inner city kid from LA who is 19 years old to have three gunshot wounds, is there?
Problem is, if he was 28 with ten years of clean service, we might take a chance, but a year or two off the block, that is high risk.
I recommended that if they put him into the pipeline, he be restricted to 18D. Most members did not get it.
That was just one of several who came to try out.
TR
mike pasek
06-28-2007, 23:56
Army Times has an article with the same title, but their interpretation of results from this new approach to training is the opposite of what is written here.
http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?page=article&id=2071
this is a shame :( heres a video if anyone wants to watch http://youtube.com/watch?v=N5jRawaB1tY
I'm going rangers so does anyone know if I will be in a different group during basic training like the 18x pipeline goes through?
Kyobanim
06-29-2007, 02:52
this is a shame :( heres a video if anyone wants to watch http://youtube.com/watch?v=N5jRawaB1tY
I'm going rangers so does anyone know if I will be in a different group during basic training like the 18x pipeline goes through?
Tell me why it is a shame?
this is a shame :( heres a video if anyone wants to watch http://youtube.com/watch?v=N5jRawaB1tY
I'm going rangers so does anyone know if I will be in a different group during basic training like the 18x pipeline goes through?
Hey, stud, why don't you just wait and report back after you've gone through it yourself? Better yet, be sure to explain to your Drill Sergeants that you're "going rangers", they'll probably give you a big wet kiss and ruffle your hair. :rolleyes:
That video bears no relation to the BCT that I attended: 4-6 hrs sleep, no cell phones, no "seconds" in the DFAC (as though you'd want them), plenty of yelling and remediation. It's going to be what it's going to be, just learn to drive on.
It can't be all that bad. The troops seem to be performing admirably in hostile conditions.:lifter
Cold Steel
06-29-2007, 11:22
When I went through basic at Ft. Benning 2/58 my battle buddy was a chap named Mike Moyer. Nice enough kid that meant well but didn’t really pull it together as he should have during his time at basic. Those of you familiar with sand hill might recognize that name because of Moyer Hall, which was named after his father, a retired general, who would call the company CP desk to see how his son was doing. No BS story, during week 7 my DS was handing out mail and called my last name, stopped and said “I don’t have a xxxxxxx in my f-ing platoon.” Looked at me and said “oh, Moyer’s battle buddy”. I left for split-op basic training weighing 135 and in 9 weeks came home at 165.
It can't be all that bad. The troops seem to be performing admirably in hostile conditions.:lifter
Is that due the training recieved in BCT or the training at the unit level? BCT, I've always thought, was a filtering process to insure the recieving unit had something better to work with.
Is that due the training recieved in BCT or the training at the unit level? BCT, I've always thought, was a filtering process to insure the recieving unit had something better to work with.
I dunno but the final product seems to be pretty good across the board from unit to unit.
Things were ALWAYS tougher and better back in OUR days.:rolleyes:
When I was in we complained about having to put gas in a jeep when we could just put a feed bag on a mule.:lifter
When I was in we complained about having to put gas in a jeep when we could just put a feed bag on a mule.:lifter
LOL, Terry, I'd sign up for some muleteer (?) lessons any day. Just seems like something useful to have in the 'ol bag of tricks. :D
I thought Basic was going to be harder than it was, I was a little disappointed that it turned out to be fairly easy and that was in 1985. There were a few that showed talking about how easy it was going to be for them and how tough they were, those were the ones that seemed to have the hardest time or didnt make it to graduation. I dont know how these Soldiers are doing when they first show up at their units, but I had the great privilege of meeting quite a few young Soldiers in Iraq and I was not disappointed at all, quite the contrary.
Monsoon65
06-29-2007, 19:57
When I was in we complained about having to put gas in a jeep when we could just put a feed bag on a mule.
My dad said he was in when they use to get gigged for having buffalo shit on their boots.
Leozinho
06-29-2007, 21:32
"Back in 1775, in Tun Tavern, recruiting started for the new Marine Corps. The very first Marine enlistee came in, signed the papers and took an oath. He was then told to go outside and wait for the other enlistees to go through the process. They would assemble later on the front yard.
After a few minutes the second enlistee came out and had a seat on the steps, beside the first. The first man looked at the second and began grumbling, 'Well, it's just not like the Old Corps anymore.'"
:D (That's an old one, I know.)
There's no doubt that basic training has gotten softer. I'm not apologizing for that.
But amid all the concern about easy drill sergeants, lax entry standards and recruiters signing up gang members, we should talk about the average soldier that enlists in 2007.
Mainly, he enlists knowing he's going to war. That certainty has to have shaped the profile of the typical recruit. (I'm sure plenty of recruits sign up thinking for some reason they won't deploy, but I'm talking about the average recruit. He knew what he was getting into.)
I'm told that my unit used to have guys that before 9-11 never expected to be in a honest-to-God war. It turned out that some of them didn't like it. Well, they aren't in anymore, despite having gone through the last hard class of basic training.
Meanwhile, the some of the folks that enlisted in 2003 are on their 3rd tour to Iraq. To be sure, they probably didn't expect three tours in 5 years, but most of them signed up out of some sort of patriotism, rather than just for a steady job and the GI Bill. And those that sign up this year shouldn't have any illusions about what war is like.
I'm not saying that those that signed up the the last few years should go around a patting themselves on the back, but it's something to think about when we discuss the state of the new recruits.
I think an untenable op temp will do more to change the face of the Army than relaxing basic training ever could. After all, the Nintendo generation is already in the Army and has proven itself. They are the Captains and Majors and senior NCOs. We are on the Xbox360 generation now.
I'm much more worried about the exodus of O-4s that we are said to have than I am about soft basic training.
While I joined pre-9/11 (barely), I must say.. Thank you for that post, Leozinho... I don't have much of a leg to stand on among the membership of this board, but I do like to think that many of my peers are patriots.. My buddy, Mick (see my sig), joined specifically to go to war. Not because he was a War Junkie, but because of the men and women serving and that he wanted to support his country. He knew full-well that he was going to war and the risks. And he made the ultimate sacrifice, willingly, and honorably. And that, in itself, takes a strong person, IMO.
So thank you. We newbies are honored :) Both by your comment and in serving our country, in a time of war.
Leozinho
06-29-2007, 21:57
Wait. Don't thank me. I haven't been anywhere, yet. But almost all of the folks I went to basic with in 2003 have.
Also, just to be clear - I'm not painting with a broad brush here. I'm not trying to insinuate that folks that signed up pre-9-11 are inferior or less patriotic than new recruits. I used an anecdote relayed to me to point out that sometimes the good old days weren't so good.
Wait. Don't thank me. I haven't been anywhere, yet. But almost all of the folks I went to basic with have.
Also, just to be clear - I'm not painting with a broad brush here. I'm not trying to insinuate that folks that signed up pre-9-11 are inferior or less patriotic than new recruits. That comment was an anecdote relayed to me that I used to point out that sometimes the good old days weren't so good.
Perfectly clear. The only thing I took your comment to mean was a dedication of honor and respect to the people who took whatever tools were given to them, and made it happen, regardless of the circumstance. Proving that soldiers still soldier on regardless of the circumstance or lack of preparedness. :) We may be a hard headed generation, but there are those of us that still take our knocks and learn from those before us such as this fine community, and continue the fight, no matter where we came from, what we know, or what's available. We go out there, and pardon the cliche, but we live: Be all you can be.
That's why I said thanks. :)
And whether or not you've been anywhere... you're willing to. Ready or not. That's just another example of it. :)
Scottkimbal
08-26-2007, 09:29
Am I allowed to request a camp for boot camp? I havent signed the contract yet and I want to make sure that I go through the hardest camp possible. I thought that all the camps were hard. It sounds like Ft. Benning is the hardest. Is that correct, are there harder camps to go through?
Kyobanim
08-26-2007, 09:52
Take what you get and make the best of it; you only get out of it what you put into it. There are no 'hard' or 'easy' posts.
Am I allowed to request a camp for boot camp? I havent signed the contract yet and I want to make sure that I go through the hardest camp possible. I thought that all the camps were hard. It sounds like Ft. Benning is the hardest. Is that correct, are there harder camps to go through?
Let me help you out. First, in the Army, they're not called camps, they're posts. Ft Benning is an Army post in Georgia.
And no, as far as I know, you can't request where you go for basic. Where you go is determined by your chosen MOS and space available. When I went through Basic in 2002, I was supposed to go to Benning, but they were full, so I was sent to the recently de-femaled Ft. Sill.
Good luck.
Scottkimbal
08-26-2007, 23:36
Thank you for the insight.
Remington Raidr
08-27-2007, 11:07
Let me help you out. First, in the Army, they're not called camps, they're posts. Ft Benning is an Army post in Georgia.
So, what makes the difference between Forts, Posts, and Camps:confused:
So, what makes the difference between Forts, Posts, and Camps:confused:
Lets not short the people in blue - they have a base, well more than one.:D
Lets not short the people in blue - they have a base, well more than one.:D
My favorite is Los Angeles AFB. There are no runways; not even a heliport. :D
Pat
Kyobanim
08-27-2007, 12:22
So, what makes the difference between Forts, Posts, and Camps:confused:
1. A fort is a square structure built on the plains to house the Calvary
2. A post is something that is used to hold up the walls of the fort
3. A camp is the space inside the fort where the tents are put up for the Cavalry to sleep in.
Hope that clears things up.
:cool:
1. A fort is a square structure built on the plains to house the Calvary
2. A post is something that is used to hold up the walls of the fort
3. A camp is the space inside the fort where the tents are put up for the Cavalry to sleep in.
Hope that clears things up.
:cool:
LoL! Good stuff!
As far as the original question, I think it just has to do with who 'owns' said installation. For the Marine's the garrison is a Camp, the Army it's called a Post, and the AF call their's a Base.
My favorite is Los Angeles AFB. There are no runways; not even a heliport. :D
Pat
I hope they can at least hang a picture of a AC (Plane/Helo) on the wall. I bet they have models on their desk also.:eek:
Next thing ya' know somebody will want to know how many Trucks are on Ft. Bragg.
Should I run for the bunker now?:D
Next thing ya' know somebody will want to know how many Trucks are on Ft. Bragg.
Should I run for the bunker now?:D
The Airborne has trucks??? :eek:
;) :D
The Airborne has trucks??? :eek:
;) :D
That didn't take long.
When you throw out a baited hook something is going to nibble.
You older guys let this soak a while.:D
Pete
OK you young guys, this subject has soaked overnight and you appear to be avoiding the subject.
By tradition, if you go on Post and break a Truck you find........
OK you young guys, this subject has soaked overnight and you appear to be avoiding the subject.
By tradition, if you go on Post and break a Truck you find........
A means to properly cut up, and dispose of the flag, and a .45 Cal round to defend it.
That was one of my Soldier of The Year questions when I was in Hawaii. Thank god my S-3 SGM asked me the question beforehand at a practice session.
"PFC *****, how many trucks are on post?"
I about chit myself trying to go through MTOE in my young mind about how many trucks the 25th ID (L) had on post. He thankfully stopped me before my brain reached a full rolling boil. :D
OK you young guys, this subject has soaked overnight and you appear to be avoiding the subject.
By tradition, if you go on Post and break a Truck you find........
Pete
By the time we made it through the Q Course we were flushing that basic Army crap and filling our heads with medical journals, IMPOC formulas, demo tables oh and very important which bars were SF friendly and how to fill out TDY orders and vouchers. That soldier of the year stuff was for the support guys and the brown nosers who wanted to be a 1SG of HSC. You know what is scary I have a soldiers guide for taking the board still in a box. It is yellowing a lot but has things like how many Trucks are on a Post and what is in it. I am such a pack Rat. May be a good thing for the Museum.:D
A means to properly cut up, and dispose of the flag, and a .45 Cal round to defend it.
SF-BHT,
With all due respect, This is NOT basic Army crap......this concept conveys an important principle! The concept of the lesson is still in my head after many years.(even if the grey matter has started leaking out):D
SF-BHT,
With all due respect, This is NOT basic Army crap......this concept conveys an important principle! The concept of the lesson is still in my head after many years.(even if the grey matter has started leaking out):D
You missed my point. As QP's we filled up our Grey matter with so much additional info that is why I or others were not Picking up very fast on Pete's "Truck........." comment.:)
We all came up in the army and hopefully learned that type of info but most teams are made up of Sr. E-6's E-7's and an E-8. Quite different than a platoon in the Regular Army. I remember getting a E-5 right out of the Q Course and it took all of us to get him ready for the board and we also made him go to the Soldier of the Month just to drive him crazy. We all had to put our heads together to get him ready because we had not needed to do this kind of thing in years. We had moved past that type of thing and had to dust off the cobb webs to make sure the info we gave him was correct. SF is a little detached from the regular Army in my day and I bet it still is. Not knocking the Regular Army. We get all our people from them. You have to start some where.