View Full Version : non-select
I hope that I am not going outside of my lane with this question. I went to selection this past year and was a non-select. I know that I stunk up the STAR but we were told that land navigation was not the only reason we were not chosen. I am preparing to return to Camp Mackall this June for another try and I am attempting to cure all of my deficiencies. We were not counseled on what the reason(s) we were not selected. I am wondering if there is a way to find out what reason beside land nav that I was not selected.
I fully understand the statement "do your best" however I feel without at least attempting to get some feedback then I am not doing my best.
Thank you very much
Team Sergeant
04-12-2006, 08:29
I hope that I am not going outside of my lane with this question. I went to selection this past year and was a non-select. I know that I stunk up the STAR but we were told that land navigation was not the only reason we were not chosen. I am preparing to return to Camp Mackall this June for another try and I am attempting to cure all of my deficiencies. We were not counseled on what the reason(s) we were not selected. I am wondering if there is a way to find out what reason beside land nav that I was not selected.
I fully understand the statement "do your best" however I feel without at least attempting to get some feedback then I am not doing my best.
Thank you very much
Welcome to our world.
Congrats on your decision to try again.
Do the best you can.
Team Sergeant
Just do everything better than you did the first time and you should be good to go.
The Reaper
04-12-2006, 09:55
I hope that I am not going outside of my lane with this question. I went to selection this past year and was a non-select. I know that I stunk up the STAR but we were told that land navigation was not the only reason we were not chosen. I am preparing to return to Camp Mackall this June for another try and I am attempting to cure all of my deficiencies. We were not counseled on what the reason(s) we were not selected. I am wondering if there is a way to find out what reason beside land nav that I was not selected.
I fully understand the statement "do your best" however I feel without at least attempting to get some feedback then I am not doing my best.
Thank you very much
odu:
We look for the "whole man". The 1SG at SFAS should have explained this to you in detail, to include his "three-legged stool" analogy.
Normal reasons for non-selection in addition to the STAR failure would include poor physical performance, low-intelligence scores, poor aptitude for learning, psych problems, bad spot reports, providing false information, criminal records, inability to obtain a clearance, drug or alcohol problems, poor performance as a team member, and bad peer reports.
In four years of following SFAS classes, I have never seen anyone stay till the end and not be out-counseled.
Were you boarded?
It occurs to me that you probably know deep down inside why you were not selected. You were not selected because you failed to meet a standard. If you can not figure out what it was, that reflects a lack of self-awareness, something that we also look for. If you decide to come back, prepare yourself better in all areas, get your mind right, be a good team member, and do your best.
Good luck.
TR
NousDefionsDoc
04-12-2006, 10:08
Just do everything better than you did the first time and you should be good to go.
Have you been selected?
Congrats on your decision to try again.
Do the best you can.
Agree!! Congrats on your decision to try again.
Train on your short falls. You know what you didn't do well on. Fix them!
Just do everything better than you did the first time and you should be good to go.
Read the Threads in this Forum: Special Forces Assessment & Selection, a lot of info on the posts.
Use the Search button too.
You can always get the BOOK :D - WM
I like that never give up attitude......you know what went right and wrong.
Good luck...................Do your Best
Warrior-Mentor
04-12-2006, 14:24
You can always get the BOOK :D - WM
Thanks for the plug MG. :o
You weren't selected due to a poor showing on the STAR alone. IF you made it thru the end of team week and were Non-Selected, then you had multiple areas that were considered weak. I have a few questions for you. Please reply to me with answers.
1. Were you a 24 day Non-Select?
2. Were you out counseled?
3. If so, what areas were you told to work on?
4. FINALLY- WHY would you ask anyone on this site WHY you weren't selected?
Nobody will ever give the keys away to the castle to someone who isn't known, trusted, or who has proven himself. You haven't done any of those to this point so quit trying to figure out WHY you didn't make it last time and worry about HOW you will "Do the best you can" next time! If you were given another chance to come back then the Cadre thought enough of you to give you another shot at redemption. Don't screw it up because it will be your last chance.
Good luck...train hard, be a team player.....and DO THE BEST YOU CAN!
Thank you all for your replies. I was non-select after the STAR which I performed poorly at. I was not at all prepared for this however I have taken many steps to improve myself in this facet. While we were not individually out counseled, we were told that there were reasons other than land nav that were taken into account into being non-selects.
My time at Camp Mackall made me even more determined to succeed. The cadre gave me an increased respect for all of the qualified soldiers. I have a copy of the "Get Selected" book however nothing prepared me for the terrain and the distance between points in the STAR. I now know what I face and plan on tackling it head on. I also feel that the long distance run hurt me as I trained more for the PT test than the distance runs. Since coming back I have competed in half marathons to cure that deficiency.
Again, thank you everyone for your replies. I apologize if it appeared that I was attempting to get additional G2. I realize now that I was asking for the keys to the castle improperly. Very poor situational awareness on my part.
odu,
I was a 24 day non-select but out all that was non-selected I was told to come back. I was confused and wanted answers too for awhile. Forget about it. Your seeking answers you won't find. I did great on the star and didn't get selected, so your doing bad on the star didn't help but it wasn't the whole reason you didn't get selected.
I too was planning on going back. Then had hernia surgery and then got promoted now have to go to BNOC. But my sights are on the OCT or NOV classes.
I feel your pain man. Good Luck
The Reaper
04-12-2006, 20:59
odu,
I was a 24 day non-select but out all that was non-selected I was told to come back. I was confused and wanted answers too for awhile. Forget about it. Your seeking answers you won't find. I did great on the star and didn't get selected, so your doing bad on the star didn't help but it wasn't the whole reason you didn't get selected.
I too was planning on going back. Then had hernia surgery and then got promoted now have to go to BNOC. But my sights are on the OCT or NOV classes.
I feel your pain man. Good Luck
Carbine:
Both you and odu have been given the answers. Maybe they were not what you wanted, but they were correct, and sufficient for you to understand. If anything, I probably gave you more info than I should have.
If you feel that our replies are inadequate, we will not waste any further time trying to explain to you, or any future non-selects.
As I have already pointed out, people who can't figure out the real reason they were not selected lack self-awareness, and that is something that we are looking for.
TR
NousDefionsDoc
04-12-2006, 21:47
however nothing prepared me for the terrain and the distance between points in the STAR.
Aye GOD son - STOP SNIVELING! "Terrain"? "Distances"? What the hell are you going to say humping the Hindu Kush? Try your body weight in the Andes. You don't know what terrain and distance is.
Sniveling about a GD walk in the park! I never heard such a thing. All you got to do is walk a bit and find a stake - nobody shooting at you or chasing you.
Do it or don't - but quit whining about it.
NousDefionsDoc
04-12-2006, 21:54
And for the other one: You feel his "pain"? Both of you report to the "Taps" forum and read ever freakin' post from the beginning. Then go read the "Above and Beyond" forum. Then shut your whining pieholes.
Santa Maria Madre de Dios - you feel his "pain"? You don't know what f-ing pain is.
Troops out there bustin' their asses in conditions you can't even have nightmares about and you two have "pain" about "terrain and distances" at Mackall.
Post some more whinging on this board.
Normal reasons for non-selection in addition to the STAR failure would include poor physical performance, low-intelligence scores, poor aptitude for learning, psych problems, bad spot reports, providing false information, criminal records, inability to obtain a clearance, drug or alcohol problems, poor performance as a team member, and bad peer reports.
TR,
I understand you need SECRET clearance prior to attending SOPC/SFAS. But, do they not tell you whether or not your clearance was given prior to getting to the class? Or do they allow you to attend the course before your clearance is determined? The reason I ask is because I have some hindrances that might keep me from obtaining clearance. Either way, I'm going to try. Thanks in advance.
Team Sergeant
04-13-2006, 07:48
TR,
I understand you need SECRET clearance prior to attending SOPC/SFAS. But, do they not tell you whether or not your clearance was given prior to getting to the class? Or do they allow you to attend the course before your clearance is determined? The reason I ask is because I have some hindrances that might keep me from obtaining clearance. Either way, I'm going to try. Thanks in advance.
When you filled out your questionnaire for a clearance did you write down all those “hindrances”?
Granting a secret clearance is fast and easy for responsible individuals devoid of “hindrances”. Individuals with certain types of “hindrances” will never be allowed to join Special Forces or the US military for that matter. Because every individual is different and some actually think they will try to fool the system and not write down all their accumulated “hindrances” when we do find them, and we will, we will “flag” and pull that individual from any training he or she is currently attending and send them packing.
Don’t expect a quick adjudication of your clearance if you possess certain types of “hindrances”.
TS
TS is on the money...I used to process EPSQ packets at my old BN. You'd be surprised what some guys had on their record and still were granted a clearance...PROVIDED THEY WERE HONEST. On the other hand, we had a lot denied because some joe left some seemingly minute infraction off and lied about it.
Best thing you can do in your favor is to be up front in the EPSQ packet and any interview that may result.
The Reaper
04-13-2006, 08:58
TR,
I understand you need SECRET clearance prior to attending SOPC/SFAS. But, do they not tell you whether or not your clearance was given prior to getting to the class? Or do they allow you to attend the course before your clearance is determined? The reason I ask is because I have some hindrances that might keep me from obtaining clearance. Either way, I'm going to try. Thanks in advance.
You do not need a clearance to attend SOPC or SFAS.
You do need one to attend the SFQC.
The EPSQ is normally filled out at SFAS. Those who have "hindrances" are not scheduled for the SFQC till they are cleared up and adjudicated. Lying or omitting issues on the EPSQ can and frequently does get you extra negative attention.
I believe that I explained this all in one of the stickies. You might want to do some searching and reading before asking aby more questions.
Good luck.
TR
Warrior-Mentor
04-13-2006, 10:36
I hope that I am not going outside of my lane with this question. I went to selection this past year and was a non-select. I know that I stunk up the STAR but we were told that land navigation was not the only reason we were not chosen. I am preparing to return to Camp Mackall this June for another try and I am attempting to cure all of my deficiencies. We were not counseled on what the reason(s) we were not selected. I am wondering if there is a way to find out what reason beside land nav that I was not selected.
I fully understand the statement "do your best" however I feel without at least attempting to get some feedback then I am not doing my best.
Thank you very much
"Character is what you do on the third and fourth attempt."
- James Mitchner
I was misunderstood. "Pain" was not as in physical pain. I was talking about dreaming of getting your chance finally go to SFAS in between deployments and schools. Training and mentallly preparing yourself. Busting your hump, and then I got's to do it all over again, but I would gladly do it again.
I wasn't trying to take anything away from the QP's. Your good at what you do and are the best. I've worked with QP's in Iraq. I've seen you all lay your lives on the line day in and day out, and that's the team I want to be on. Sorry if I ticked some of you off. Not my intention.
C
NousDefionsDoc
04-13-2006, 20:43
I'm not ticked off. I'm tired of the whining. STAR this and STAR that. Terrain and Distance. If you can't terrain associate at a trot, you shouldn't be allowed outdoors.
There is one reason for "non-select" in my not at all humble opinion. And one reason only.
The individual under going assessment and selection did not answer The Question, though his actions, beyond any shadow of a doubt.
Do you know what The Question is?
BTW: I know you didn't mean physical pain. I am a Medic, not stoopid.
Guys I just have to say this and if it pisses you off, what can I say. I have been retired for awhile and SFAS was still in it's infancy. SFAS if I remember correctly stands for Special Forces Assessment and Selection there is no "T" in there for Training where you recieve feedback. You are there for people to assess your skills , knowledge and ability to perform. If your attitude is good your skills and brain stay in tact then you are selected. If you want feedback go back to kindergarten for christ sake and leave all theses terrible, diffcult tasks to the people that can perform and accomplish the assigned task.
NousDefionsDoc
04-13-2006, 21:00
Guys I just have to say this and if it pisses you off, what can I say. I have been retired for awhile and SFAS was still in it's infancy. SFAS if I remember correctly stands for Special Forces Assessment and Selection there is no "T" in there for Training where you recieve feedback. You are there for people to assess your skills , knowledge and ability to perform. If your attitude is good your skills and brain stay in tact then you are selected. If you want feedback go back to kindergarten for christ sake and leave all theses terrible, diffcult tasks to the people that can perform and accomplish the assigned task.
Will you be my Team Sergeant? Pretty please? I mean when we come back in the next life.:)
The Reaper
04-13-2006, 21:03
Will you be my Team Sergeant? Pretty please? I mean when we come back in the next life.:)
He was one of the best.
I was proud to know him. Despite the fact that he was buds with Baum.
TR
But its not fair!!!
Na just joking. All your points taken.
C
NousDefionsDoc
04-13-2006, 21:19
Do you know what The Question is?
Ambush Master
04-13-2006, 21:24
I was misunderstood. "Pain" was not as in physical pain. I was talking about dreaming of getting your chance finally go to SFAS in between deployments and schools. Training and mentallly preparing yourself. Busting your hump, and then I got's to do it all over again, but I would gladly do it again.
I wasn't trying to take anything away from the QP's. Your good at what you do and are the best. I've worked with QP's in Iraq. I've seen you all lay your lives on the line day in and day out, and that's the team I want to be on. Sorry if I ticked some of you off. Not my intention.
C
What's PAIN?!?!?!?!:munchin
When you filled out your questionnaire for a clearance did you write down all those “hindrances”?
Granting a secret clearance is fast and easy for responsible individuals devoid of “hindrances”. Individuals with certain types of “hindrances” will never be allowed to join Special Forces or the US military for that matter. Because every individual is different and some actually think they will try to fool the system and not write down all their accumulated “hindrances” when we do find them, and we will, we will “flag” and pull that individual from any training he or she is currently attending and send them packing.
Don’t expect a quick adjudication of your clearance if you possess certain types of “hindrances”.
TS
TS-No, I haven't filled out a questionnaire yet. I will be honest when I do so though.
TR-I've searched and have found some great information, but wanted clarification. I read in "Get Selected" that some recruits are sent to the Board for failing to meet the pre-requisites, i.e. ineligible to receive security clearance.
Thank you for your replies.
The Reaper
04-13-2006, 21:41
TR-I've searched and have found some great information, but wanted clarification. I read in "Get Selected" that some recruits are sent to the Board for failing to meet the pre-requisites, i.e. ineligible to receive security clearance.
Thank you for your replies.
If you can't get a clearance, we are not going to put you into training. That would be a total waste of resources.
If there is any doubt, you may be asked to explain your "hindrances" to the board's satisfaction.
Since people who sit on the board are ones you will see again, and are important to your future, lying to them would be a bad idea.
Some people with clearance issues are told that they will not be returning for the SFQC till their clearance has been adjudicated. That can take a while.
You are a long way from the board at the end of SFAS. Odds are very good that even if you sign an 18X contract, you will not make it that far.
My advice to you is to focus on the things you have control of, and the 25 meter target, getting into shape.
TR
If you can't get a clearance, we are not going to put you into training. That would be a total waste of resources.
If there is any doubt, you may be asked to explain your "hindrances" to the board's satisfaction.
Since people who sit on the board are ones you will see again, and are important to your future, lying to them would be a bad idea.
Some people with clearance issues are told that they will not be returning for the SFQC till their clearance has been adjudicated. That can take a while.
You are a long way from the board at the end of SFAS. Odds are very good that even if you sign an 18X contract, you will not make it that far.
My advice to you is to focus on the things you have control of, and the 25 meter target, getting into shape.
TR
Will do, thank you for your reply.
Men,
Not that this subject needs to be beat up anymore than it has been, but...Come on, you know exactly why you did not make it...I know why I did not make it and it does not need a board to fill me in on the reasons. I, went into it believing it was going to be a physical feat that I would easily push through...After a few days , I realized quick that is was more. I learned from that and will be back in september.
Also, you remember how the cadre were during selection...? What makes you think that the men on this board would be any different. "Do your Best".
-VAFF
The Reaper
04-15-2006, 12:58
VAFF:
Welcome aboard.
Do some reading here, especially the stickies and intros. Fill in your profile and introduce yourself in the proper place before posting again.
Good luck when you return.
TR
bost1751
04-15-2006, 21:21
Well put. The assessment deal was still pretty new to me when I retired, and other than the Sr WO course, I avoided Bragg for my last 10 years. Yes, like you said, assessment is just that.
In all honesty I did SFAS twice...I was just not mature enough the first time around and waited almost 2 years to go back. I had no qualms about why I was non-selected the first time...too self-centered and not enough of a "team mate".
And as for NousDefionsDoc question:
I never worked on the Selection cadre, but if I did my only selection criteria would be, "Do I want this guy on my team covering my six?" That should guide you far as for how to approach selection!
As far as a clearance I also had some issues to clear up but hey if you are honest and can show the why, where and when you can still get a TS-SCI! I am living proof! But there is a lot to be said for keeping your nose clean!
NousDefionsDoc
04-17-2006, 11:06
That is indeed the question Brother.
Warrior-Mentor
04-17-2006, 12:17
I never worked on the Selection cadre, but if I did my only selection criteria would be, "Do I want this guy on my team covering my six?" That should guide you far as for how to approach selection!
Close, I would say here should be the criteria...
Selection: Can I train this guy to cover my 6 on a team?
SFQC Graduation (Sage): Do I want this guy on my team covering my 6?
Fresh out of selection, most guys are not ready to go straight to a team. They need the SFQC to help them not only to learn the technical skills, but to grow and mature as a Soldier.
Warrior-Mentor I totally agree with the statement
Fresh out of selection, most guys are not ready to go straight to a team. They need the SFQC to help them not only to learn the technical skills, but to grow and mature as a Soldier.
But I add this, you can teach someone skills but you really can't change their character or personality. I always felt that what selection is looking for is: Do you have the internal make up to be train-able as well as the character to fit in on a team.
But I don't wish to split hairs...bottom line if someone is a 21 day non-selectee they need to take a good hard look at themselves and find the shortcoming. If they can't find their flaw I wouldn't try going back again...rucka sacka is too heavy to carry around for another non-selection!
Warrior-Mentor
04-17-2006, 14:02
De acuerdo.
Warrior-Mentor I totally agree with the statement
But I add this, you can teach someone skills but you really can't change their character or personality. I always felt that what selection is looking for is: Do you have the internal make up to be train-able as well as the character to fit in on a team.
But I don't wish to split hairs...bottom line if someone is a 21 day non-selectee they need to take a good hard look at themselves and find the shortcoming. If they can't find their flaw I wouldn't try going back again...rucka sacka is too heavy to carry around for another non-selection!
Thanks for figuring out how important those two (personality/character) things are. Your Kung Fu is strong SF18C!! Those are things that I have always known and at least now it's being evaluated in SFAS. That's what is dropping guys out now who in the past might have made it. It's tough to see those 24 day non-selects stand there after giving it their all but at least we know the regiment isn't getting only a strong, smart guy....The regiment is getting a strong, smart guy who can also play well with others! Now we need the real "Action Guys" on the teams to keep these young men motivated and stay in for the long run. The story today in the Fayetteville Observer Times is a little concerning.
Thanks for your input!
Daver sends.....
The Reaper
04-18-2006, 11:20
You guys are on the money.
Having sat through boards for several years, I have seen countless guys sent away because they were lacking some aspect of the total package, some were told never to return due to untrainable aspects.
We can make kids better land navigators, faster runners, etc., but we can not teach heart, intelligence, or ethics.
Many times, it came down to the cadre being asked if they would want to serve with the individual being evaluated. A "NO" vote from a proven tac with several years on the teams and at SFAS said a lot.
I am not there now, but I know that Daver, his boss, and the guys at Selection are making sure that these guys being selected meet our standards and are trainable, or they would not keep plugging away at their jobs.
TR
Dustin03
05-01-2006, 10:11
I was a 24 day non select twice, both times for totally different things. If anybody was at SFAS in Jan. of this year you could probably guess who this is because I made the biggest screw up out there. Although I had guys telling me that it was not my fault alone i still kick myself in the nuts ever time I think about it.
My question is this, are they still giving NTR's for all non selects? I was told to wait it out and hopefully it will change. until then I'm going on a deployment with an infantry unit, and plan on attending 98G school to be on a SOT-A team when I get back. Also, is there a way I can have my performance evaluations sent to me from both classes I attended?
The Reaper
05-01-2006, 10:20
I was a 24 day non select twice, both times for totally different things. If anybody was at SFAS in Jan. of this year you could probably guess who this is because I made the biggest screw up out there. Although I had guys telling me that it was not my fault alone i still kick myself in the nuts ever time I think about it.
My question is this, are they still giving NTR's for all non selects? I was told to wait it out and hopefully it will change. until then I'm going on a deployment with an infantry unit, and plan on attending 98G school to be on a SOT-A team when I get back. Also, is there a way I can have my performance evaluations sent to me from both classes I attended?
I have never seen soldiers NTRed merely for being first (or second) time non-selects.
People who are NTRed are not wanted back for a reason, it could be for your benefit or that of the unit. The presumption at that point is that you do not have what it takes to make it through the course, and never will.
That does not mean that you are a bad person or cannot be a great soldier. It merely means that you have been assessed and were not selected for continuation in SF training. You took your best shots, and stepped up to the plate to test yourself. Most never do.
In the final analysis, the high standards are the reason it is "Special Forces", and not "Average Forces".
TR
Dustin03
05-01-2006, 10:53
Yes sir, they told all non selects they where NTR'd, and that's the way it's going to be for a while. We called the Guard liason at Bragg and he said our best bet was to wait it out for a year until the COC changes again, and perhaps they will lift this new rule. As far as I know the NTR rule is still in effect. Now this was in January, and I haven't heard any change yet.
If you were a NTR in Jan and the guard told you to wait a year the rule may change, check your calendar it's only May, 7 months short of being a year. Attention to detail will carry you a long way in the military and civilian life.
Good advice from everyone. For the guys wanting to go through again. Good Luck. Personally know of one guy who went through SFAS 3 times finally getting selected on the third try and finishing the Q.
Yes sir, they told all non selects they where NTR'd, and that's the way it's going to be for a while. We called the Guard liason at Bragg and he said our best bet was to wait it out for a year until the COC changes again, and perhaps they will lift this new rule. As far as I know the NTR rule is still in effect. Now this was in January, and I haven't heard any change yet.
First of all, before you say things like all Non-selects were NTR'd and that's the way it's going to be for a while you better hope you are right! In this case, you are WAY wrong and generally pissing me off. Since I personally know everyone who was present at your board, I can promise you the reason you weren't selected is because you did not meet the requirements to be selected and therefore weren't. It's pretty simple.....you made it through 24 days but you weren't what we were looking for and nobody on this site can change that nor would they want to. Just because you make it through 24 days doesn't give you the right to automatically be selected. The best thing you can do is continue on with what you're doing and be satisfied that you tried your best. The fact that you were a 24 day Non-Select TWICE and are bringing your grievance here tells me all I need to know. The board was RIGHT by Non-Selecting you.
Good Luck.
The Reaper
05-01-2006, 20:19
Well, Dustin, if you weren't an NTR before, you probably are now.
I did not understand where you got that from either, but I wasn't there. Daver was, and he has just confirmed that you were not told that.
Maybe you were told that you were an NTR, but that does not mean all non-selects were, unless you have access to all of the student records.
Thanks for clearing that up, SGM.
TR
Team Sergeant
05-01-2006, 20:21
The board was RIGHT by Non-Selecting you.
Good Luck.
The SGM has spoken.
This is not a reality show. If you feel you must "air" your complaints or excuses in public expect the SGM to meet you head on.
Dustin03, you did not measure up.
Case closed. Now move out and draw fire.
Team Sergeant
Selection: Can I train this guy to cover my 6 on a team?
SFQC Graduation (Sage): Do I want this guy on my team covering my 6?
--WM
What else is there to say. I am not sure it gets any more clear cut than this. You guys (QP) have a way of breaking things down to the most simple terms. Thanks.
Gentlemen,
I was referred to this board by CPTAUSRET over at SOCNET, and have a question regarding being a non-select that GREENHAT suggested I ask (very, very carefully and politely) on this board.
The question regards O's (uh, me) who are non-selects because of SARS, and/or potentially psych. I am hesitant to post specifics in a public forum because I am unsure how much I can say about SARS/psych. I believe I can discuss it's existance, but not the specific scenario or interview.
If I reattend SFAS down the road as an EM/NCO instead of as an O, will the board view this in a negative light?
I do not intend to be shady, secretive or vague, but I am attempting to tread carefully since I am fully aware that there are a lot of stripes/rockers/stars and oak leafs on this forum. I know exactly what my outprocessing brief said, and I know exactly where I made my mistakes. However if this is an "ingrained" personality trait (My assessor did not know) I do not want to waste the Cadre's time (and Army's dime) if the same negative characteristic would appear again.
Admins if I am out of line, please delete immediately. I did use search and gathered the relevent info.
Gentlemen, thanks for your time and consideration. I would greatly appreciate any insights via PM if that is appropriate and possible.
For reference/background the original question was posted NOV 05 at socnet under the Special Forces Forum with the title :"Officer to Enlisted Question"
http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?t=54390
Jack Moroney (RIP)
07-07-2006, 13:39
The question regards O's (uh, me) who are non-selects because of SARS, and/or potentially psych. If I reattend SFAS down the road as an EM/NCO instead of as an O, will the board view this in a negative light?
Well I really do not know how to answer your question other than with an observation. If you were non-select because of SARS/psych it makes no difference whether or not you are an officer or an NCO.
As far as attending SFAS and succeeding as an NCO vice an officer, you do realize that SF NCOs fill roles often exceeding their US grade structure and have served as Brigade advisors and above. They have also "run" and "strongly influenced" nations. They are not just outstanding soldiers, but exceptional leaders, managers, practitioners of unique skill sets, and teachers beyond peer. While I cannot speak for the board that will consider your success or failure for selection, it would not make a whole lot of difference to me whether you were an officer or not if you did not have the potential to be first and foremost a Special Forces Soldier. While we may hold officers to a higher standard, it was my personal philosophy that we did so because the soldiers for whom they were to assume responsibility deserved none but the very best when it came to the leadership that was to support them. It used to be that the playing field, when it came to the selection process for SFAS, was pretty even and it did not make much difference whether or not you were an officer or an NCO, save those traits that would make you a liability as an officer in SF or any other branch. The reason being that the leadership responsibilities of the NCO and Officer in SF are not distinct when folks are away from the flag pole.
The Reaper
07-07-2006, 16:31
First, you need to do some reading here and introduce yourself in the proper place. Since you were referred here by CPTAUSRET, we will skip the prrliminary ass-chewing and ask that you do that at your earliest opportunity. It does indicate a potential problem with SA and attention to detail.
I would say that reattending depends on whether you think the deficiency noted is a fluke, a temporary issue, or a permanent one.
For example, you can improve your education, but not your basic intelligence. If your SARS issue was a bad decision and you think you might do better next time, come back. If you do not understand the difference between right and wrong, we can't help you and it would be a waste of time.
Almost invariably, IMHO, the cadre outbrief each stud and tell him what he did right, what he did wrong, whether he should come back, and what he needs to work on before he does. Did that not happen with you?
TR
Gentlemen,
I was referred to this board by CPTAUSRET over at SOCNET, and have a question regarding being a non-select that GREENHAT suggested I ask (very, very carefully and politely) on this board.
The question regards O's (uh, me) who are non-selects because of SARS, and/or potentially psych. I am hesitant to post specifics in a public forum because I am unsure how much I can say about SARS/psych. I believe I can discuss it's existance, but not the specific scenario or interview.
If I reattend SFAS down the road as an EM/NCO instead of as an O, will the board view this in a negative light?
I do not intend to be shady, secretive or vague, but I am attempting to tread carefully since I am fully aware that there are a lot of stripes/rockers/stars and oak leafs on this forum. I know exactly what my outprocessing brief said, and I know exactly where I made my mistakes. However if this is an "ingrained" personality trait (My assessor did not know) I do not want to waste the Cadre's time (and Army's dime) if the same negative characteristic would appear again.
Admins if I am out of line, please delete immediately. I did use search and gathered the relevent info.
Gentlemen, thanks for your time and consideration. I would greatly appreciate any insights via PM if that is appropriate and possible.
For reference/background the original question was posted NOV 05 at socnet under the Special Forces Forum with the title :"Officer to Enlisted Question"
http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?t=54390
I have one question for you right now;
1. Did you get boarded by the Bn Commander and other folks in the Bn conference room?
Depending on your answer, I can give you feedback.
SGM,
Negative. I was not interviewed by the board. The Cadre clearly stated during the outprocessing brief that I was quickly eliminated from consideration because of a specific SARS.
First, you need to do some reading here and introduce yourself in the proper place. Since you were referred here by CPTAUSRET, we will skip the prrliminary ass-chewing and ask that you do that at your earliest opportunity. It does indicate a potential problem with SA and attention to detail.
I would say that reattending depends on whether you think the deficiency noted is a fluke, a temporary issue, or a permanent one.
For example, you can improve your education, but not your basic intelligence. If your SARS issue was a bad decision and you think you might do better next time, come back. If you do not understand the difference between right and wrong, we can't help you and it would be a waste of time.
Almost invariably, IMHO, the cadre outbrief each stud and tell him what he did right, what he did wrong, whether he should come back, and what he needs to work on before he does. Did that not happen with you?
TR
TR,
I have corrected my mistake. My apologies. No excuse.
I did participate in an outbriefing by an assessor, and was clearly told where I failed. He was unsure if this would hurt my chances in the future, however.
It was not a moral issue. I acted too aggressively. However, the assessor did not know if the psychologist identified this as ingrained (permanent personality trait) or simply a poor judgement call (temporary bad decision). I believe I simply made a bad judgement call. I was unable to confirm this with the psych, however, since we had a pretty heated interview.
I hope this clarifies. Thank you for your time and advice.
Well I really do not know how to answer your question other than with an observation. If you were non-select because of SARS/psych it makes no difference whether or not you are an officer or an NCO.
As far as attending SFAS and succeeding as an NCO vice an officer, you do realize that SF NCOs fill roles often exceeding their US grade structure and have served as Brigade advisors and above. They have also "run" and "strongly influenced" nations. They are not just outstanding soldiers, but exceptional leaders, managers, practitioners of unique skill sets, and teachers beyond peer. While I cannot speak for the board that will consider your success or failure for selection, it would not make a whole lot of difference to me whether you were an officer or not if you did not have the potential to be first and foremost a Special Forces Soldier. While we may hold officers to a higher standard, it was my personal philosophy that we did so because the soldiers for whom they were to assume responsibility deserved none but the very best when it came to the leadership that was to support them. It used to be that the playing field, when it came to the selection process for SFAS, was pretty even and it did not make much difference whether or not you were an officer or an NCO, save those traits that would make you a liability as an officer in SF or any other branch. The reason being that the leadership responsibilities of the NCO and Officer in SF are not distinct when folks are away from the flag pole.
Sir,
Understood. Thank you for the advice. It is much appreciated.
SGM,
Negative. I was not interviewed by the board. The Cadre clearly stated during the outprocessing brief that I was quickly eliminated from consideration because of a specific SARS.
The bottom line then is that the board had no doubt that you are not SF material. As we stated in the day one briefings, SFAS is your "Try Out" for the varsity team. You were given a fair shot and you took it but missed making the team. It happens alot and all you officers came here under no illusion it would be a "Gimme". Officers are better prepared then enlisted soldiers and we expect more from them. SF is not for everybody fortunatly for the Regiment we don't want everybody. At least you tried and made it to the end. We can never keep our force strong if young men like yourself stop showing up. Fortunately, more will come and be selected. You did your best and gave it your all so at least you can look yourself in the mirror and know you didn't quit.
Good luck with your career.
SGM
Warrior-Mentor
07-11-2006, 12:13
At least you tried and made it to the end. We can never keep our force strong if young men like yourself stop showing up. Fortunately, more will come and be selected. You did your best and gave it your all so at least you can look yourself in the mirror and know you didn't quit.Good luck with your career.
SGM
Just reiterating the importance of what SGM had to say.
Thank you for trying.
JM
Daver,
I appreciate the insight and guidance, SGM. It is much appreciated.
WM,
Roger, sir. What I am trying to learn about, is if I return to SFAS as an NCO, will I have a clean slate or will I have a very, very difficult time convincing the board?
I asked two outbriefers this question, and I received two very different answers. Which is understandable since this is apparently an uncommon occurance.
There has been more than once since I've been in that I've heard from a peer: "I made the wrong choice; I should have enlisted for 18X/Option 40, etc." (this is usually after reading a book like "Imperial Grunts" prior to writing yet another MOI for a dog and pony show). Rather than go straight to the civilian world and put the military behind me, I figured I should at least look at the option of enlisiting to do something I love while I am still young, in shape and single. This was further reinforced by the fact that I ran into an 18x I had gone to college with who decided not to pursue a commission. Instead, he was successful in the civilian world, decided something was missing, and decided to try and join the varsity team. Right now, I honestly envy him.
My paperwork to do this was submitted prior to learning I would attend SFAS as an O. It was then put on hold by my CoC. Now that I am considering different career options, I am trying to gather as much information as possible about everything I can. The information from this board has been extremely helpful and I do appreciate the responses and advice that have been sent my way.
I would love to reattend SFAS, no matter what at what rank, or in an AD/NG capacity. However I would hate to make an uninformed decision right now without trying to learn as much as possible from those who have BTDT. I know that I can excel on the physical and teamwork portions. I am very uncertain about the workings of the board and psych. I don't want to waste anyone's times by reattending as an NCO only to discover that the board would look upon my actions as silly, stupid or suspect.
I understand that not all personality types are what SF is looking for. But I do know that how someone reacts to failure is a great indicator of their character.
Again, thanks for taking the time out to help, gentlemen.