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Pete
04-10-2006, 16:44
The lax case gets more sticky by the day.

DNA does not link the Lax students to the Lady dancer in question.

The DA intends to press forward with the case.

Al S. and T.B. stand ready to help with the case.

Gypsy
04-10-2006, 16:49
I'm perplexed...if the DNA does not link the alledged suspects to the claim of rape by the woman dancer, why would the DA choose to proceed?

rubberneck
04-10-2006, 16:53
I'm perplexed...if the DNA does not link the alledged suspects to the claim of rape by the woman dancer, why would the DA choose to proceed?


The DA crawled way out on the limb with some of his comments to the press about this case now he can't crawl back without losing face. I guess he would rather lose in court than to eat some of the comments he has made in public.

Gypsy
04-10-2006, 17:06
Interesting. I just saw it reported on Fox News that 26 of the 27 alleged suspects have given DNA samples, maybe he's waiting for the last one.

rubberneck
04-10-2006, 17:16
Interesting. I just saw it reported on Fox News that 26 of the 27 alleged suspects have given DNA samples, maybe he's waiting for the last one.

Accodring to the stripper there were three Duke players that raped her. If 26 out of 27 have been exonerated due to DNA testing doesn't that make her a liar? I haven't heard the DA accuse anyone but members of the Lacrosse team.

I think the DA should have kept his big yap shut until he knew he had the goods on the team before preening for the cameras.

The Reaper
04-10-2006, 17:16
1. He is up for reelection this year and hoped to win votes in the black community by going after these student athletes.

2. There is a possibility that the LAX players did rape her, but left no DNA evidence.

3. The local papers have been crucifying these guys for weeks, if he dropped it, he would be seen as incompetent humself.

4. There are a lot more holes to this case than has been shown so far, there are a number of questions that remain.

5. IIRC, Jesse and Al supported Tawana Brawley against her racist white attackers as well. Even after they found there weren't any.

BTW, there were not 27 athletes, there were 47, but they only took DNA from 46 because the other player was black and the stripper (let's call her what she is) claimed that the attackers were all white, so he was excluded. The DA had to act because the media convicted the athletes before the trial, and the largely black populace of Durham were calling for blood.

TR

MtnGoat
04-10-2006, 17:20
Interesting. I just saw it reported on Fox News that 26 of the 27 alleged suspects have given DNA samples, maybe he's waiting for the last one.

The 27 was a black Lacrosse player/student. As TR stated:

BTW, there were not 27 athletes, there were 47, but they only took DNA from 46 because the other player was black and the stripper (let's call her what she is) claimed that the attackers were all white, so he was excluded.

Lets see what the city does overnight.

rubberneck
04-10-2006, 17:21
5. IIRC, Jesse and Al supported Tawana Brawley against her racist white attackers as well. Even after they found there weren't any.

Even worse they knew very early on that she had fabricated her entire story and still slandered the defendants one of which IIRC was an assistant DA who has since sued Sharpton for slander and won.

Gypsy
04-10-2006, 17:39
Thanks Gentlemen, will certainly be "interesting" to see what unfolds...

Warrior-Mentor
04-10-2006, 17:46
The local papers have been crucifying these guys for weeks, if he dropped it, he would be seen as incompetent himself.

What happened to INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY?

The Reaper
04-10-2006, 17:49
What happened to INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY?

That rule is suspended for media events, criminal sex allegations and interracial crime.

TR

Warrior-Mentor
04-10-2006, 18:32
That rule is suspended for media events, criminal sex allegations and interracial crime.

TR

That's funny, I keep a copy of the Constitution in my office and couldn't find that section in there...:rolleyes:

Pete
04-10-2006, 19:15
That's funny, I keep a copy of the Constitution in my office and couldn't find that section in there...:rolleyes:

The local rag will have some updates in the morning. I'm sure one of us will post the links for the out-of-towners.

Pete

The Reaper
04-10-2006, 19:22
That's funny, I keep a copy of the Constitution in my office and couldn't find that section in there...:rolleyes:

Let one of your soldiers be ACCUSED of a sex crime, child abuse, domestic violence, or racism, and see whether guilt has to be proven or not before people make decisions.

Today's Raleigh News & Observer headline, top of the front page:

"Team has swaggered for years".

Guess what side they are on?

TR

Ambush Master
04-10-2006, 20:12
Just heard on the "News" that NONE of the DNA of the Team Members MATCHED what was on or about the "victim"!?!?!?!

Maybe they just didn't offer to tip her enough?!?!?!

WTFO!!!!

bost1751
04-10-2006, 23:43
Nothing surprising here. The media found something to jump on and the escalation went from there. Someone already hit on the biggest reason for the DA to continue with prosecution, politics. Our judicial system is heavily influenced by money and politics. as you all already know. Work in law enforcement for a while and it won't take long to get a belly full of the state of our judicial system. High profile draws attention, DAs are elected. I believe that should say it all. As for the constitution, it applies only when convienent or so it seems. higher level courts can overturn decisions of the lower courts and the local levels can still get the "credit" they were looking for. Drama, politics and money.

Pete
04-11-2006, 04:09
Nothing surprising here.


http://www.fayettevillenc.com/article_ap?id=83549

The latest from the AP.

Detcord
04-11-2006, 06:10
I'm sure if the girl was white and was raped by members of a football team that was all black (except for one white guy), the accused players would have been "cleared" the minute the DNA evidence said they weren't there.

The black players would be on TV talking to Opra and other farts in the wind about how it was a witch hunt because they were black.

But if you're white, and cleared with DNA, you get to still possibly face a criminal trial...

QRQ 30
04-11-2006, 06:33
The lax case gets more sticky by the day.

DNA does not link the Lax students to the Lady dancer in question.

The DA intends to press forward with the case.

Al S. and T.B. stand ready to help with the case.

1. There was one team member not tested -- a black member.

2. Pursuing the case could and probably does mean investigating fraud, false reports etc.

The Reaper
04-11-2006, 08:06
Today's N&O headline:

"DNA clears players, lawyers say;
DA vows to continue inquiry"

TR

Warrior-Mentor
04-11-2006, 10:04
When does the stripper get hammered for false accusations?

The Reaper
04-11-2006, 10:31
When does th estipper get hammered for false accusations?

Clearly, not for another 21 days at least.:D

TR

Roguish Lawyer
04-11-2006, 11:31
While you guys justifiably criticize the media for convicting the players prematurely, aren't you prematurely judging the case also? I thought the idea was to marshal and review all of the relevant evidence, THEN make a decision . . . :munchin

The Reaper
04-11-2006, 11:37
It seems to me that presumptive innocence has been overcome by media trial in this case. That is especially vexing in light of the number of suspect who are on tape or who have confessed to their crimes yet the media continues to refer to them as "alleged" criminals, yet in this case, the LAX players.

I was not saying that they didn't do it till the DNA results were announced, now I feel that it is less and less likely that they did it. It is still possible, but not likely.

TR

rubberneck
04-11-2006, 11:40
I thought the idea was to marshal and review all of the relevant evidence, THEN make a decision . . .

If I am mistaken that applies to juries and court officers. I am neither. Besides, unless things have changed recently isn't there a presumption of innocence in a criminal trial? Based on what I have read thus far I choose to presume that the players are innocent and the DNA tests support that presumption. ::p

Roguish Lawyer
04-11-2006, 11:48
the DNA tests support that presumption.

Have you seen the test results? Reviewed the testing methodology?

Say "media reports of the purported test results" and I'll be quiet. ;)

The Reaper
04-11-2006, 12:02
Have you seen the test results? Reviewed the testing methodology?

Say "media reports of the purported test results" and I'll be quiet. ;)

Well, I watched their attorneys say that the DNA evidence implicated none of them, but they could be lying SOBs.

You know how lawyers are.

TR

QRQ 30
04-11-2006, 12:08
Let me repeat something that seems to have been lost in the shuffle. All players were not tested. Just the white players. Maybe she is color blind, cant't count and/or involved in a conspiracy.

Roguish Lawyer
04-11-2006, 12:41
Well, I watched their attorneys say that the DNA evidence implicated none of them, but they could be lying SOBs.

You know how lawyers are.

TR

LOL, and these are criminal defense lawyers you're listening too.

Remember, if the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit!

MtnGoat
04-11-2006, 13:45
Let me repeat something that seems to have been lost in the shuffle. All players were not tested. Just the white players. May she is color blind, cant't count and/or involved in a conspiracy.
But QRO, She did report that three conducted the assault. Well, I guess that College education is really paying off Now.

Man you just Got to the love the American Education System!! :lifter

bost1751
04-12-2006, 00:08
I watched some of these news this morning and it was entertaining at best. Of course the lack of DNA match was mentioned over and over, but the DA made a comment that was interesting. He stated they will pursue the case. What is interesting is he said "case" not investigation. Later the media mentioned there photographs of this stripper having bruises before arriving at the Duke lax party. A highly respected criminalist reported DNA is not found in 75-80% of sexual assault cases. They seem to contidict one another on the DNA aspect. The DA also said the upcoming election does not influence this in any way. My question is a simple one, where and what is the evidence? The DA can be convinced all he wants that a crime has been commited, but the evidence speaks for itself. There are numerous factors in this: explosive media coverage, high profile, history of Lacrosse team, race, politics and community relations. With all those external influences the evidence, if any, will dictate the outcome. If this does goe to trial I hope a change of venue is granted.

Goggles Pizano
04-12-2006, 07:03
Let me repeat something that seems to have been lost in the shuffle. All players were not tested. Just the white players. Maybe she is color blind, cant't count and/or involved in a conspiracy.

Excellent point. The DA not ordering the entire team tested is a major mistake with this case and if his decision over ruled the initial police investigation he's a bigger jackass than has been presented so far. If he does not have enough evidence to order an arrest, and was praying for DNA, this ship has sailed. Contrary to media opinions this would not be the first time someone lied to the cops about a rape case (whatever her motivation might be).

The Reaper
04-12-2006, 09:40
Excellent point. The DA not ordering the entire team tested is a major mistake with this case and if his decision over ruled the initial police investigation he's a bigger jackass than has been presented so far. If he does not have enough evidence to order an arrest, and was praying for DNA, this ship has sailed. Contrary to media opinions this would not be the first time someone lied to the cops about a rape case (whatever her motivation might be).

46 out of 47 gave DNA samples. Again, the only player not tested was black, and she said that all of her assailants were white.

TR

QRQ 30
04-12-2006, 11:28
46 out of 47 gave DNA samples. Again, the only player not tested was black, and she said that all of her assailants were white.

TR
I agree. Thus my statement:"Maybe she is color blind, cant't count and/or involved in a conspiracy."

Goggles Pizano
04-13-2006, 09:24
46 out of 47 gave DNA samples. Again, the only player not tested was black, and she said that all of her assailants were white.

TR

Roger that Sir, however during any investigation the smart play is to cover all bases knowing that the possibility exists that your victim may lie. The most notorious example I can think of is Tawana Brawley. A thorough investigation cleared the officers and exposed the lies. I am not suggesting they do not have additional evidence to pursue the case (photos, additional lab work, witnesses that dispute timelines, etc), but to make such hay over DNA suggests to me that the DA is not confident with what was collected or the victim's story. AL or RL could better explain appeal options for the defense with an exclusion of one player as I am certainly no lawyer. :D

QRQ 30
04-13-2006, 09:40
More of her story: three white men, three minutes in a little itty bitty coat closet.
WOW!!

The Reaper
04-13-2006, 09:49
I hate to bring out the race card, and I do not believe that she was raped by the sole black member of the LAX team. However, let's say that a white stripper claims she was raped at a house party by three black guys from a basketball team. Do you think that the white team members would be excused from DNA testing? What would the position of Jesse and Al be?

The facts are not all in in this case. However, I would say this. I believe that she had sex with someone(s) that night. I believe that it may not have been consensual. I am unconvinced at this point that the LAX players did it, not because they are white, go to Duke, or are athletes. I would grant that they may have done it, but at this point, I have seen no evidence presented in public that would make this anything other than a "he said, she said" case. I would love to know what the rest of the forensic evidence is, what the other stripper has said happened, and what the statements of the LAX players are. The DA has access to all of that and thinks that he has a case. At the same time, as he is facing an election in a largely black city, he may have his own motivation for pursuing this case. If he can prove that these kids did it, they should receive an appropriate sentence of hard jail time. If not, it seems to me that a lot of apologies are going to be due.

At this point, all we are doing is speculating. I will say that in a recent conversation with my local sheriff, he complained of the difficulty of getting a jury to convict without significant forensic evidence like DNA. He blamed it on the "CSI" mentality, where everyone who has seen the show thinks that every case is solvable with forensic evidence, and that every Mayberry department is prepared to collect and process it.

The truth will come out in due time. In the meanwhile, other black people have been murdered in Durham, and no doubt, over a dozen black women raped there. What is being done about those cases, and are a disproportionate amount of finite resources being dedicated to this high profile, white on black crime allegation?

Just a few thoughts.

TR

QRQ 30
04-13-2006, 09:56
Her husband was on TV yesterday decrying the fact that they only referred to her as a stripper rather than a college student, married and a mother. WTF is she doing styripping? Durham is a very racially charged city. NCCU was the "all Black campus" of UNC but they were forced to "integrate". I went to Durham Tech down the street and NCCU had at least 5 "Token Whites".

Goggles Pizano
04-13-2006, 10:40
I hate to bring out the race card, and I do not believe that she was raped by the sole black member of the LAX team. However, let's say that a white stripper claims she was raped at a house party by three black guys from a basketball team. Do you think that the white team members would be excused from DNA testing? What would the position of Jesse and Al be?

The facts are not all in in this case. However, I would say this. I believe that she had sex with someone(s) that night. I believe that it may not have been consensual. I am unconvinced at this point that the LAX players did it, not because they are white, go to Duke, or are athletes. I would grant that they may have done it, but at this point, I have seen no evidence presented in public that would make this anything other than a "he said, she said" case. I would love to know what the rest of the forensic evidence is, what the other stripper has said happened, and what the statements of the LAX players are. The DA has access to all of that and thinks that he has a case. At the same time, as he is facing an election in a largely black city, he may have his own motivation for pursuing this case. If he can prove that these kids did it, they should receive an appropriate sentence of hard jail time. If not, it seems to me that a lot of apologies are going to be due.

At this point, all we are doing is speculating. I will say that in a recent conversation with my local sheriff, he complained of the difficulty of getting a jury to convict without significant forensic evidence like DNA. He blamed it on the "CSI" mentality, where everyone who has seen the show thinks that every case is solvable with forensic evidence, and that every Mayberry department is prepared to collect and process it.

The truth will come out in due time. In the meanwhile, other black people have been murdered in Durham, and no doubt, over a dozen black women raped there. What is being done about those cases, and are a disproportionate amount of finite resources being dedicated to this high profile, white on black crime allegation?

Just a few thoughts.

TR

To answer your first question Sir as an investigator no, I would not excuse any player from testing unless directed to do so by a DAG. As for Jesse and AL we have smaller likenesses here who raise the race issue ad nauseum, and they are treated with the same disdain as the larger fish. I agree the facts are not all in-but the evidence is. Unfortunately we are not privvy to it at this time however I can say that this DA better have solid witness accounts, or conflicting player interviews lest his case fall apart. I also agree that politics and racial tensions always ratchet up the populace and perhaps that was the intent since he (the DA) is up for reelection.
As for the "CSI" mentality it is the nature of jurors to be fickle and thus creates many an ulcer to law enforcement. I am sure that the Duhram police detectives are doing the best with the resources they have for their additional case loads. Unfortunately I bet there has been a huge amount of overtime spent investigating this one case, and ultimately the city will suffer financially regardless of the outcome trial or no trial.

Solid
04-22-2006, 22:38
I applaud whichever talking head criticized the "CSI generation" view of a crime scene.
Yes, DNA evidence is important. Yes, other forensic evidence like that obtained through a "rape kit" are also important.

However, one thing we have had hammered into our heads over and over by statistics professors is that all of the above forensic tests are nowhere near 100%. In fact, the margin of error on most of these kinds of tests would, if put in the proper light, shock and amaze jurors.

Bottom line: this kind of evidence is not the be-all, end-all. It will merely support either the prosecution or defence's argument. As much as I would like it to be so, the lack of DNA evidence does not mean that the stripper(s) were lying.

Furthermore, I do not disapprove of the one black player on the team not being given a DNA test. This is not a matter of racism: almost all evidence the DA has is based on the testimony of this stripper. If she is adamant that the men that assaulted her were white, there is absolutely no point testing the one black player on the team. If her friend had said she wasn't sure what race the purported rapists were, then yes, they should have tested the black player. However, this was not the case. They had nothing to go on, no reason to test that one player. It makes sense, therefore, that they didn't.

The media, including Duke's own Chronicle, have made a mess of this case by pulling race into it. I am not saying that race is not a factor in the case; what I am saying is that the purported "facts" of this case reported in the media are being overshadowed by the racial prejudices -big or small- held by pratically everyone in this country and the world. To add to the mess, it so happens that DA Nifong is up for reelection this month, and a case like this can propel him into the limelight. The product of these factors is that two things are often ignored:
1) Innocent until proven guilty.
2) The evidence in this case, as eventually reported by the defense and prosecution.

What this should bring to everyone's attention, IMHO, is the way Duke students percieve Durham residents and vice versa. There is a lot of mutual suspicion flowing both ways, and, while it is damn hard to propose a sure-thing solution, work has to be done to create an understanding between the two parties.

JMO, please don't take offense.
Solid

QRQ 30
04-23-2006, 07:00
Solid is correct on most things. Personally I feel that both sides of a case "leak" as much as possible about a case in order to influence potential jurors with information that may not be admitted in court. You can object, strike from the record or whatever you want but you can't erase what a person has heard or read.

I lived worked and went to school in Durham. There is a large black population but no more racially charged than any other city. The blacks have to live somewhere since there aren't any across the highway in Chapel Hill.:rolleyes:

Essentially "Momma Duke" owns the city. Contrary to popular belief, Duke is not a bastion for the rich, (that's UNC).:p Over 90% of the student body attend on some form of tuition assistance or other. Basically no one can afford. The Duke Founfation screens NC schools for potential students beginning in middle-school. These students are selected an recruited on the basis of need and academics.

As for the incident, I doubt there is a college or university in the nation which doesn't have its "Animal House". Limestone College, near here, just suspended its entire baseball team for a hazing incident. Let's not lose sight of the incident. If it happened it needs to be solved as to who did it, and proper punishment meted out.

BTW: Admitted DNA isn't 100% accurate but it is expressed in odds which are billions to one. I prefer forensics to some other types of cases. A while back some jurors said they convicted a mother of murder because she didn't display the emotions of a mother who had lost her child. My Gof, I hope I am never tried by such a jury. I don't show emotions. When I went to my father's funeral people were talking about what an asshole I must be because I wasn't shedding tears.