View Full Version : Are we at war with Islam?
bassbuckeye
07-21-2013, 08:14
Interesting. Infiltration? Sleeper Cell? Insurgents? Or am I unjustly paranoid?
I'm paranoid..........but damn the falafel is good
Disclaimer: I believe in freedom of religion and I don't think any one group, race, creed, religion are all bad. I also realize that Christianity has had its share of issues.
Are we at war with Islam?
I think so, yes we are at war with Islam. More important question that begs to be answered, Is Islam at war with us? Meaning a civilized society.
There are plenty of instances for years where attacks against the US and England are done by a jihad or extremes of the Islam. "Sharia Law" is in direct conflict with the US Constitution.
I don't see any moral or ethical code in sharia law.
......More important question that begs to be answered, Is Islam at war with us? Meaning a civilized society.
.
Islam is unique in having a developed doctrine, theology, and legal system that mandates warfare against "unbelievers," aka the "kafir/kafiroon" - and Islam has already declared war on us, a never ending eternal war, and the perpetual acts of terrorism only reinforce what is sanctioned by their legal doctrine, and it's the law, it's shariah.
John Quincey Adams put it ever so succinctly:
“…he [Muhammad] declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind…The precept of the Koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God.”
-John Quincey Adams-
http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=11283
T-Rock....JQA had it exactly right and it has not changed one iota......
it's a funny thing tho as many Muslims have no idea what their religion is about until it is shoved in their collective faces....
Cannot wait for Maj. Jihadipants to start spouting his crap during the trial....there will be some excellent 'Cair' spots telling us that 'he does not represent Islam'....then WTF does...
Throwing acid in school girls faces or giving them head shots.
Hanging homosexuals in public, not really hanging but hoisting them up with a crane so they slowly choke to death.
Burning Christians and their Churches and destroying any other religious or cultural icons.
Posing the same dead baby body over and over again for the press.
You know, regular religious stuff.
The following article by Clare M. Lopez is called: "The Mosque: Center of Religion, Politics and Dominance". An excellent - and timely - article about what is currently happening in Syria. But it goes further, and is worth the read.
http://lopez.pundicity.com/13603/mosque-religion-politics-dominance
(Clare M. Lopez is a strategic policy and intelligence expert with a focus on Middle East, national defense, WMD, and counterterrorism issues. Specific areas of expertise include Islam and Iran.)
Trapper John
08-09-2013, 05:16
T-Rock....JQA had it exactly right and it has not changed one iota......
it's a funny thing tho as many Muslims have no idea what their religion is about until it is shoved in their collective faces....
Cannot wait for Maj. Jihadipants to start spouting his crap during the trial....there will be some excellent 'Cair' spots telling us that 'he does not represent Islam'....then WTF does...
Throwing acid in school girls faces or giving them head shots.
Hanging homosexuals in public, not really hanging but hoisting them up with a crane so they slowly choke to death.
Burning Christians and their Churches and destroying any other religious or cultural icons.
Posing the same dead baby body over and over again for the press.
You know, regular religious stuff.
Spoken like a true SGM/CSM and gets right to the point. :lifter
Trapper John
08-09-2013, 05:30
The following article by Clare M. Lopez is called: "The Mosque: Center of Religion, Politics and Dominance". An excellent - and timely - article about what is currently happening in Syria. But it goes further, and is worth the read.
http://lopez.pundicity.com/13603/mosque-religion-politics-dominance
(Clare M. Lopez is a strategic policy and intelligence expert with a focus on Middle East, national defense, WMD, and counterterrorism issues. Specific areas of expertise include Islam and Iran.)
Very, very good post Stobey! Informative, clear, and enlightening- a must read IMO. The intrinsic Sunni-Shiite battle is our leverage point for defeating Islam.
More war is coming in the Middle East, hasn't stopped for thousands of years.
Evans is a longtime Middle East scholar and is a decades-long friend of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. He told WND radical Islamic elements will keep fighting for their cause and that almost certainly means much more misery for Egypt.
“You’ll have civil war, ultimately, in Egypt. There’s no question about it,” he said. “It’s not over yet. This is a battle for Islam. It’s not about Democracy. It never was.”
Unprecedented and historic events are unfolding almost daily in the Middle East, but nowhere is the gathering threat more serious and deadly than in the Islamic Republic of Iran. Dr. Jerome Corsi’s “Atomic Iran” is a much-needed wake-up call to Americans.
He said the fight is really between radical Sunni and Shiite elements, both of whom want to establish a Middle East caliphate. He said the Shiites want to have Iran as the anchor of the caliphate, and Sunnis were hoping to have their base in a Muslim Brotherhood-controlled Egypt.Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/08/expert-israel-attack-on-iran-imminent/#1De3gutgJ4U6xh1o.99
Trapper John
08-24-2013, 12:03
I just received this from another Brother. From where I stand, I think this is a very poignant lesson from history and the danger inherent in Tolerance by the majority. Please pass this on to friends and family.
*A German's View on Islam*
This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I
have ever read. The author's references to history are accurate
and clear. It's not a lengthy read, it's easy to understand, and it's well
worth the read. The author of this email is Dr.Emanuel Tanya, a well-known
and well-respected psychiatrist. A man whose family was German aristocracy
prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates.
When he was asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he
gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.
'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return
of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those
who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just
sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us,
and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost
everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my
factories.'
We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is
the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to
live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is
entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel
better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging
across the globe in the name of Islam.
The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history.
* It is the fanatics who march.
* It is the fanatics who wage any 1 of 50 shooting wars worldwide.
* It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or
tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire
continent in an Islamic wave.
* It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It
is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque.
* It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of
rape victims and homosexuals.
* It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become
suicide bombers.
The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent
majority,' is cowed and extraneous. Communist Russia was comprised of
Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were
responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful
majority were irrelevant.
China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists
managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.
The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a
warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across
South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder
of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.
And who can forget Rwanda , which collapsed into butchery. Could it not
be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?
History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our
powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:*
*Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.
Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because
like my friend from Germany , they will awaken one day and find that the
fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs,
Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many
others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it
was too late.
Now Islamic prayers have been introduced into Toronto and other public
schools in Ontario and, yes, in Ottawa too, while the Lord's Prayer was
removed (due to being so offensive?) The Islamic way may be peaceful for
the time being in our country until the fanatics move in.
In Australia , and indeed in many countries around the world, many of the
most commonly consumed food items have the halal emblem on them. Just look
at the back of some of the most popular chocolate bars, and at other food
items in your local supermarket. Food on aircraft have the halal emblem,
just to appease the privileged minority who are now rapidly expanding
within the nation’s shores.
In the U.K, the Muslim communities refuse to integrate and there are now
dozens of “no-go” zones within major cities across the country that the
police force dare not intrude upon. Sharia law prevails there, because the
Muslim community in those areas refuses to acknowledge British law.
As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group
that counts - the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this
email without sending it on is contributing to the passiveness that allows
the problems to expand.
GiveRespect
08-24-2013, 23:17
I'm a Muslim. Am I an enemy? Should I even consider going to the military now. Will I go and disrupt unit morale? Am I a threat to this nation? I’ve been reading all the posts and I feel like everything I did up to this point was a waste. All the pushups, pull-ups, running, swimming, and reading. All the very basic things I did to ensure my success, is it now gone? All this time on this website was it for nothing? Until tonight I was dead sure that I needed to fight for my country and defend the constitution and NOT sharia bullshit law. I wanted to help free the oppressed .I wanted to be something bigger than I was. If my name was forever wiped for the "sands of time” but I helped overthrow the unjust it would have been fine to me. I feel like I could never be truly accepted because of my religion now. I feel so nothing right now. But anyway regardless, still thank all of you for serving this nation. Truly I don’t mean that in any sarcastic way. You brave men inspired me and thank you. But now I have some thinking to do. God bless America, its troops, and its allies.
GR, were you born into the Muslim faith, or did you change faiths?? What is it about the Koran, and the Muslim faith that you find alluring or the need to follow??
Just curious..
I'm a Muslim. Am I an enemy? ........
Do you believe that the Koran is the true word of Allah?
Do you believe that everything in the Koran is true and you must follow it?
Do you believe in abrogation as it applies to the verses in the Koran?
Are you a good Muslim or are you an apostate?
Only you can answer those questions and therein you find your own answer.
Trapper John
08-25-2013, 08:21
GR- I admire and respect immensely the personal aspirations and values that you display in your post.
Let me just get this out there - you are not a true Muslim nor are you following Islam and you are certainly not the enemy. As my Brothers queried, you need to answer some fundamental questions about your choice to follow Islam which by the way you are not following if in fact your words are reflecting your true beliefs and if in fact your actions are consistent with those beliefs.
One more thing - It took a lot of courage on your part to make that post here. That is an SF trait. OK, it wasn't one more thing. Also, take a look at the references posted on this thread about the al Sira. Look at what Muhammad did as a reflection of his true motives and true values. Then ask yourself some questions - Is this a prophet of God? Do I want to emulate this person's values in my life? Is Islam really a religion?
You are asking the right questions in your post and I suspect that you have the motivation and moral courage to continue your quest. I also suspect that you have just found many guides to assist you along the way - count me among them. :lifter
Paragrouper
08-25-2013, 08:47
I'm a Muslim.
So what?
Will some view your religious beliefs with suspicion? Yes. within SF you can find people that view others religious beliefs, or lack thereof, suspicious. Why should you be any different. We are a diverse, outspoken group--thin skins need not apply.
If you think it will be a problem it will be a problem and the problem will be you. So please cease the whining about all the PT and reading you've done and how that might have been wasted time. That's just a piss poor attitude.
Abu Jack
08-25-2013, 08:49
GR,
I recently had a colleague who grew up in Iran and left at the age of 18, came to the US, got an education joined the army and is currently a LTC. He brought an incredible amount of knowledge on Islam, Iran, Persia and a host of other middle east subjects to the team we worked together on. In his own words he was a bad Shia. He likes the alcohol. He is a great american and I have no doubt about where his loyalties lie. How about you?
Here is the oath of enlistment you'll take if you join:
(a) Enlistment Oath.— Each person enlisting in an armed force shall take the following oath:
"I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
Now my question is will you take this oath with out any reservation? Do you believe Sharia Law should replace the Constitution?
Obviously we don't want another Hasan. I'm sure he took the same Oath when he enlisted and I'm sure he took his Oath when he was promoted to Major.
You have to decide for yourself.
I'm a Muslim. Am I an enemy? Should I even consider going to the military now. Will I go and disrupt unit morale? Am I a threat to this nation? I’ve been reading all the posts and I feel like everything I did up to this point was a waste. All the pushups, pull-ups, running, swimming, and reading. All the very basic things I did to ensure my success, is it now gone? All this time on this website was it for nothing? Until tonight I was dead sure that I needed to fight for my country and defend the constitution and NOT sharia bullshit law. I wanted to help free the oppressed .I wanted to be something bigger than I was. If my name was forever wiped for the "sands of time” but I helped overthrow the unjust it would have been fine to me. I feel like I could never be truly accepted because of my religion now. I feel so nothing right now. But anyway regardless, still thank all of you for serving this nation. Truly I don’t mean that in any sarcastic way. You brave men inspired me and thank you. But now I have some thinking to do. God bless America, its troops, and its allies.
Only if you follow Islam as it is written will you be an enemy.
If you believe Muhammad to be the perfect man and his actions valid today as they were long ago, to be emulated in all things, then you would be an enemy.
If you believe that Islam, as a religion and political construct must reign supreme...as it is written, then you will be an enemy of anyone that wants to retain their form of Western Govt.
Islam is not a passive religion designed to co exist with other forms of Govt.
I've always understood, from reading the Koran, Hadith, Sira that a 'true' Muslim will always seek to have Islam as not only the Religion of the land but the arbiter of local law.
It is not, as written and practiced by Muhammad, a separate issue.
I have found that military personnel that call themselves Muslim cherry pick the Religion and ignore much of its tenets. They can be good soldiers.
To many ME Muslims they would really call these US soldier 's Takfir.
Originally Posted by GiveRespect View Post
I'm a Muslim.
I am an American....how bout we start there?
Then we can move on to this...
I am an American Soldier.
I am a warrior and a member of a team.
I serve the people of the United States, and live the Army Values.
I will always place the mission first.
I will never accept defeat.
I will never quit.
I will never leave a fallen comrade.
I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills.
I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.
I am an expert and I am a professional.
I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy, the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.
I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.
I am an American Soldier.
And if you work real hard you can then graduate to this...
I am an American Special Forces soldier. A professional!
I will do all that my nation requires of me.
I am a volunteer, knowing well the hazards of my profession.
I serve with the memory of those who have gone before me:
Roger's Rangers, Francis Marion, Mosby's Rangers,
the first Special Service Forces and Ranger Battalions
of World War II, the Airborne Ranger Companies of Korea.
I pledge to uphold the honor and integrity
of all I am - in all I do.
I am a professional soldier.
I will teach and fight wherever my nation requires.
I will strive always, to excel in every art and artifice of war.
I know that I will be called upon to perform tasks
in isolation, far from familiar faces and voices,
with the help and guidance of my God.
I will keep my mind and body clean, alert and strong,
for this is my debt to those who depend upon me.
I will not fail those with whom I serve.
I will not bring shame upon myself or the forces.
I will maintain myself, my arms, and my equipment
in an immaculate state as befits a Special Forces soldier.
I will never surrender though I be the last.
If I am taken, I pray that I may have the strength
to spit upon my enemy.
My goal is to succeed in any mission
- and live to succeed again.
I am a member of my nation's chosen soldiery.
God grant that I may not be found wanting,
that I will not fail this sacred trust.
"De Oppresso Liber"
but it all starts with "I am an American"
Any questions
Justinmd
08-26-2013, 11:15
I'll throw this in: Our fallen SF brother Ayman Taha, google his name.
Justin
I'll throw this in: Our fallen SF brother Ayman Taha, google his name.
Justin
RIP Brother,
I stand by everything I said prior. I only comment on what is written in and about Islam by its practitioners...
I'll throw this in: Our fallen SF brother Ayman Taha, google his name.
Justin
Serving Was Soldier's Mission
Sudan Native Killed in Iraq Did 'Good Deeds' By Martin Weil
Courtesy of the Washington Post, Wednesday, January 4, 2006
Ayman Taha, a Berkeley graduate who was described as athletic, a speaker of many languages, and a friend to all who met him, had only to write his dissertation to earn his PhD, his father said.
But three years ago, Taha, a budding economist and the son of a Northern Virginia couple, Abdel-Rahman and Amal Taha, joined the Army to serve in the Special Forces. About a year ago, he was sent to Iraq.
On Friday, as Staff Sergeant Ayman Taha, 31, was preparing a cache of munitions for demolition in the town of Balad, the explosives detonated and he was killed, the Pentagon said yesterday. It is "a very terrible thing," Abdel-Rahman Taha said. "He was a son, and a very special son."
The father added: "If you believe in God and you realize that this is God's will . . . it makes it a lot easier." There is also consolation, the father said, in feeling that "this is something Ayman wanted to do." A family friend, Nada Eissa, agreed. "No, he didn't have to do it," she said. "This is something he wanted to do."
Ayman Taha was born in Sudan, into an academically accomplished international family. Both parents hold doctorates. When his father worked for the World Bank, Ayman attended elementary school in McLean. He went to secondary school in England, then received a bachelor's degree from the University of California at Berkeley and a master's in economics from the University of Massachusetts, where he was working toward a PhD. "He lived in many cultures," his father said, and spoke English, Arabic, Spanish and Portuguese. More important, his father said, were his personality and character.
"If he has a five-minute conversation with you, that would be the beginning of a lifetime relationship," the father said. "I never heard anybody who ever complained that Ayman did something wrong to him. "He was just that type of character," the father said.
About three years ago, Ayman Taha told his father, "Dad, I have been going to school since I was 5 years old. I want to take a break." The father said he suggested that his son "try something in the World Bank . . . or Merrill Lynch." But one day, "out of the blue," his son told him that he had signed the papers that would take him into the Special Forces. He said his son was "definitely" patriotic and believed "in the mission."
"He strongly agreed that what they were doing is good and that they were helping people in the Middle East to get out of the . . . historic bottleneck" that had confined them. Since boyhood, those who knew him recalled, Ayman Taha had taken an interest in military matters, which showed itself in the books he read and the toys he played with.
Joining the Special Forces was "something he felt compelled to do," said a friend, Hisham Eissa, who lives in Los Angeles and is Nada Eissa's brother. In economics, Taha's interest was in development. "He felt very strongly about making a difference," and "I think he felt that people like him" were needed for it, Eissa said. "Everyone whose life he touched loved this guy," Hisham Eissa said. "There isn't a single person who knew him who isn't torn up about this."
The Pentagon said Taha was assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 5th Special Forces Group, based at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. His wife, Geraldine, and child Sommer live near the base. One sister, Rabah, is a special education teacher in Fairfax County, and another, Lubna, attends Marymount University.
His father said Taha was a devout Muslim who believed that "the message of Islam is very simple . . . to believe in God and do good deeds."
What you see on this board are soldiers frustrated with a violent, oppressive fundamentalist Islamic movement and they take is seriously enough to not just blindly hate it but to study Islam to understand it and find the root cause of such virulence.
Christianity (the Bible) could not stand up to such scrutiny, unscathed. However, Fundamentalist Christians who take one passage to an extreme or preach violence are are not a serious threat and are openly marginalized by a vast majority of Christians.
With most Muslims neither vocal nor violent, the radical minority becomes your voice and action. Fair or not, that is the conclusion drawn. That you wish to serve and do not adhere to -- or agree with -- Sharia law, says you do not follow your religion blindly and are willing to defend us from people who do.
IMHO, you do have a decision to make of what you value of your own integrity most. You never have to give up your religion, but you do have to honor the oath you make as an American soldier. [See bluebb post.] It cannot be compromised for any religious or secular belief. Hasan lied in his oath. That set up his actions as a murderer. Look at PFC Manning. He is a convicted traitor. He compromised his oath for a personal, secular belief. Can you take the oath and keep it -- no matter what? We give up much of our own freedoms in our time as soldiers. But what we gain, within ourselves and our units, and for our country, is immeasurable.
There is always the exception to the rule, take Zudi Jasser (not sure on spelling) as an example; muslim, former Naval officer, activist against islamic extremists (not a term I prefer but will use for brevity). Is this a guy that will attack a group of unarmed soldiers? Not very damn likely. But he is an apostate, despised by most members of his own faith.
I never cared about someone's religion when I was on active duty. I spent most of my time in Latin America, almost entirely Christian and mostly Catholic (which I am), the conflicts there were/are mostly political or drug infused political. I did not know anything about islam until I went to Iraq in 2004 and worked with the Emergency Response Unit (ERU) of the Iraqi Police. That is when we (myself and my fellow former 7th SFG guys) discovered that training these guys was vastly different than our Latin American cousins. From that point I have spent most of my reading time dedicated to Islam. I'm not going to go into my typical rant here since it involves typing and it was no accident that I was an 18B. I have become convinced that we should be at war with islam, it is contrary to our way of life, the foundation of our country and western civilization. Islam has been at war with us since the 620's AD....by us I mean everyone that is not muslim.
Anyone can point to other religions and find horrible acts commited in the name of God, God's, fairies, whatever. However, There is nothing in Christianity, Judaism, Buddism or any other religion I know of (keep in mind, I was a Bravo) that compels its followers to strive towards violently destroying other religions.
I apologize for being verbous, so I'll wrap this up quickly; do not believe what I say, or CAIR, or Robert Spencer, or George Bush...get a koran, a Reliance of the Traveler, politically incorrect guide to islam, Because They Hate, etc, and read it. As Special Forces soldiers it our responsibility to understand our enemy, otherwise the tab would read REGULAR FORCES. To the muslims in our military and our country; you too need to understand your religion, if you can still say you are commited to the American concept of freedom of religion then great, I just don't understand how it's possible from what I've read and observed.
Trapper John
09-22-2013, 07:02
Well said all! But, GiveRespect, these reply's were directed to you and we have not heard a response from you since your second post. I am truly interested in what you think? My guess is, so are the others that have posted here. What say you, GR?
The Reaper
09-22-2013, 08:33
Well said all! But, GiveRespect, these reply's were directed to you and we have not heard a response from you since your second post. I am truly interested in what you think? My guess is, so are the others that have posted here. What say you, GR?
GR has not been back to the board since 26 Aug.
You must have scared him off.
TR
Trapper John
09-22-2013, 10:00
GR has not been back to the board since 26 Aug.
You must have scared him off.
TR
I sent him a PM this morning. Jeeez, if I scared him off, I'm sure glad he didn't run into Dusty. :eek:
I sent him a PM this morning. Jeeez, if I scared him off, I'm sure glad he didn't run into Dusty. :eek:
Where's he gonna run into me at...the mosque? :D
Trapper John
09-22-2013, 10:08
Where's he gonna run into me at...the mosque? :D
The WalMarts maybe? According to MR2 you've been hanging out there and causing a lot of mischief lately. :D
The WalMarts maybe? According to MR2 you've been hanging out there and causing a lot of mischief lately. :D
lol "the Walmarts"? :D
Spoken like a true devotee, Bro. ;)
bailaviborita
09-23-2013, 02:44
The entire German view of Islam:
But doesn't that contradict 3-24 which implies the will of the majority is all you need? And that being mean to people naturally builds self-destructive antibodies? ;)
I had hoped that he would put up some kind of counter argument, I enjoy debating these types. To come on and whine like a little girl and then run away is just pathetic. Maybe push-ups or pull-ups or whatever the hell he was saying is the wrong direction for him, maybe kegel exercises would be better (yes, that's spelled right, had to look it up).
I wasn't sure whether I should post this here or in The Comedy Zone, but here goes:
It seems like CAIR (the Council on American Islamic Relations), who was actually an un-indicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation trial - translated: "in bed" with both the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas - is in pretty hot water for money laundering the millions of dollars they get from oil-rich Gulf Arabs.
That in itself is a long story:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/09/hamas-linked-cair-has-been-running-a-global-criminal-money-laundering-operation-out-of-washington-dc.html
But apparently CAIR is now changing its name to the "Washington Trust Foundation, Inc." Yep, that's right. Their new acronym is going to be "WTF". Humorous, and somehow so very appropriate!
WTF's Incorporation documents can be found here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/169514273/WTF-Incorporation-Docs-DCRA-File-Re-WTF-Fka-CAIR-An-as-of-6-18-13-OCR
That's awesome. I'd like to think that they are dealing with an insurgency within their organization but I'm sure this is self inflicted.
Trapper John
09-25-2013, 05:58
LMAOROF - WTF? Hilarious :D
The Reaper
09-25-2013, 19:11
I don't think the average American is going to find the words "Washington" and "Trust" to belong in the same title, unless it is a bank, and maybe not even then.
TR
DoJ Slams FBI for Ties with CAIR (Muslim Brotherhood)
by Clare M. Lopez
The Clarion Project
September 22, 2013
http://lopez.pundicity.com/13801/fbi-cair-muslim-brotherhood
It's been a tough week for the Muslim Brotherhood in America. First came the plaintive wail of "Legislating Fear: Islamophobia and Its Impact in the United States," a 162-page hit list from the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) documenting groups and individuals it really wishes wouldn't be quite so effective at pointing out how the doctrine and sacred texts of Islam form the legal basis for Islamic terrorism.
The report's introductory letter from CAIR Executive Director Nihad Awad leads off with a dismayed acknowledgement of the dramatic success of the American Laws for American Courts (ALAC) initiative, which has seen six state legislatures – Arizona, Kansas, South Dakota, Tennessee, Oklahoma, and Louisiana – pass bills designed to "protect American citizens' constitutional rights against the infiltration and incursion of foreign laws and foreign legal doctrines, especially Islamic Shariah Law."
That CAIR even needed 162 pages to get through the impressive cadre of media outfits, non-profit organizations (among them the Clarion Project), publications, think tanks and their donors, is testament to the vibrancy of the counterjihad movement that strikes such foreboding into the U.S. Ikhwan (Muslim Brotherhood) establishment.
Then the next shoe dropped. On September 19, the Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General released its "Review of FBI Interactions with the Council on American-Islamic Relations." The report is sharply critical of the way the FBI implemented and managed its 2008 policy on curtailing contact with CAIR in the wake of overwhelming evidence about CAIR's ties with HAMAS (the Muslim Brotherhood's Palestinian branch) which had been documented presented in 2007-2008 Holy Land Foundation (HLF) HAMAS terror funding trial.
CAIR was named by the Justice Department as an unindicted co-conspirator in the case. The FBI report demonstrated that, contrary to subsequent FBI policy which stipulated that non-investigative interactions between the FBI and CAIR be significantly restricted, a number of FBI field offices (specifically the ones in New Haven, Connecticut; Chicago, Illinois; and Philadelphia, Pennsylvania) failed to obey this directive and continued to engage in contact with CAIR.
The DoJ report additionally critiques FBI Headquarters for failing to provide its field offices with clear and consistent guidance, as well as appropriate oversight.
The same day as the DoJ report was released, Rep. Frank Wolf (R-VA), the influential Chairman of the House Appropriations Committee's Subcommittee on Commerce, Justice, Science, and Related Agencies (responsible for the FBI's budget) fired off a sharply-worded letter to FBI Director James Comey, citing both conflicting guidance coming from the FBI's Office of Public Affairs (with its emphasis on Muslim "outreach") as well as "outright violations from several field offices."
Wolf singled out the Special Agent in Charge (SAC) in the FBI's Los Angeles field office for his blatantly "insubordinate behavior," described in the report as actually instructing his subordinates "not to abide" by FBI Headquarters policy regarding contact with CAIR.
Moreover, as Wolf notes, given that the DoJ report focuses on only five incidents of continuing FBI field office contact with CAIR, there is no way to know whether, in fact, this is but the tip of an iceberg of policy violations inside the FBI. Wolf's letter to Director Comey concludes with his expectation that people be fired.
Ikhwan scholar Shamim Siddiqi warned that there would be challenges to the process of dawa (proselytizing). Writing of the Muslim Brotherhood's "settlement process" in his 1989 monograph, "The Methodology of Dawah," Siddiqi noted that early gains did not mean "smooth sailing" would last: "In this initial stage there may not be any opposition to Dawah work. For some time the Islamic Movement of America may have some smooth sailing. But with the increase in Dawah efforts, in the number of activities and growth of the strength of the organization, the anti-Islamic forces will take notice of the multifarious activities of the Movement … the fight … may become a challenge for them … [a]larming signals will be raised by the so-called 'free press.'"
The Brotherhood attempts to counter these "anti-Islamic forces" and America's "free press" with a strategy of information dominance, as I described in a recent essay, History of the Muslim Brotherhood Penetration of the U.S. Government.
A key element used to achieve information dominance—that is, to control the official understanding of Islam and the Muslim Brotherhood—is the penetration into U.S. government intelligence and security agencies, such as the FBI.
Such tactics are straight out of the field manual on classic intelligence and counterintelligence tradecraft, but they are not only aimed at accessing sensitive information. Rather, such penetration is conducted for the purpose of exerting influence by inserting practiced, smooth-talking Ikhwan operatives into trusted advisory positions close to FBI and other national security leadership.
Indeed, that strategy has made startling progress (to the great detriment of U.S. national security), by significantly altering U.S. domestic (and foreign) policy on Islam and the Muslim Brotherhood.
As documented in Patrick Poole's masterful June 2013 overview of U.S. "outreach" policy toward the Muslim Brotherhood, Blind to Terror: The U.S. Government's Disastrous Muslim Outreach Efforts and the Impact on U.S. Middle East Policy, that "outreach" really goes in one direction only: From the Muslim community to the FBI, in order to communicate what the Muslim community wishes to tell the U.S. intelligence community, but never to be influenced or depended upon for genuine assistance in combating Islamic terrorism.
The only way for the FBI and the rest of the U.S. Intelligence Community to develop an accurate knowledge about CAIR, HAMAS, the Muslim Brotherhood and the jihadist ideology they all share is to expand and enforce the FBI's policy of official distancing itself from CAIR.
Cutting off contact with CAIR, however, but continuing to conduct "outreach" on a regular basis with its fellow HLF case co-conspirators like ISNA (Islamic Society of North America) still leaves the FBI exposed to Ikhwan da'wa, especially in the absence of all the curriculum material and subject matter experts about Islam that have been purged and blacklisted from DoJ and other government training courses since 2012 under Brotherhood supervision.
And while they're at it, reversing the absurdity set forth in the FBI's "Touchstone" document would mark another step in the direction of a sane policy vis-à-vis the Brotherhood. The "Touchstone" document says that membership in an organization—like an Islamic terror group—that engages in violence mustn't be taken as evidence of agreement with that violence, if the group also is engaged in some legitimate advocacy activity.
One week of rough sailing for the American Ikhwan is a good start, but there's a long way to go to reverse the FBI and overall U.S. official culture of dependency on all the wrong sources.
Engaging in the war of ideas requires first studying the enemy's ideas, not purging them from all consideration. Enemy jihadis whose terrorist-supporting activities, ideology and identities have been exposed in a court of law can never be suitable "outreach" partners for law enforcement agencies—especially agencies like the FBI that have been duped and penetrated for far too long by their Ikhwan comrades.
For an alternative list of potential partners that won't lead them down a dawa detour, the FBI would do well to check out the new CAIR report.
On the trail of al-Shabab’s Kenyan recruitment 'pipeline'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-24263357
"The armed siege at the Westgate shopping mall in Nairobi has focused attention on the al-Qaeda affiliate, al-Shabab. When the attack happened, the BBC's Panorama programme had been investigating the recruitment pipeline of young Muslims through Kenya to join the Islamist group in Somalia.
I meet Makaburi in a fly-infested room not much bigger than a cupboard, in Mombasa, eastern Kenya......"
Now this is what the cleric says "..."There's no such thing as a moderate Muslim. The prophets did not teach us moderation in Islam - Islam is Islam," he said.
"Being a moderate Muslim is accepting what your enemies want you to be."...."
Look at how the reporter frames the cleric's words"..Makaburi makes no apology for his activities and believes they are justified according to his own controversial interpretation of verses in the Koran...."
The story does a fairly good job on detailing the amount of help that is given to the jihad by local Muslims.
*Entire Post*
Considering that the the FBI falls under the DOJ umbrella that sounds like a bunch of good cop, bad cop, Eric Holder needs to find a fall guy mumbo jumbo.
Crazy people like Michelle Bachman, Steve Emerson, Daniel Pipes and Naiomi Wolfe have been beating this drum for a long time.
And it appears not to be just the FBI:
Yet despite all this, Elibiary still got his appointment to the DHS Advisory Council, and has now been promoted. Mohamed Elibiary has risen as far as he has without ever being properly vetted because government and law enforcement officials, and the media, are so avid to find a moderate Muslim who will stand against Islamic jihad terrorism that they will accept virtually anyone’s claim to be just that, no questions asked.
And Dalia Mogahed is a shill for Sharia. Obama’s adviser on Muslim affairs appeared on a British television show aired by the pro-Sharia group Hizb ut-Tahrir in 2009, where she said: “Sharia is not well understood and Islam as a faith is not well understood.” How have we misunderstood Islamic law? We have associated it with “maximum criminal punishments” and “laws that… to many people seem unequal to women.” The Western view of Sharia was “oversimplified,” said Barack Obama’s adviser on Muslim affairs; most Muslim women worldwide, she said, associate it with “gender justice.”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/09/muslim-brotherhood-supporting-dhs-adviser-blames-copts-for-promoting-islamophobia.html
GiveRespect
10-01-2013, 01:17
Didn’t think you guys would have missed me, anyway contrary to belief I was not at the local salon crying away my problems to my hairdresser. I wasn’t complaining about PT. I idolized you guys and when I read some posts on how all Muslims are Un -American and bad I got a little emotional and I wrote something on the fly. I take full responsibility for that but again I was not whining about some little PT. I diverge, from the topic. I’m an AMERICAN. An AMERICAN who happens to be Muslim. If you don’t like it, that’s your right as an American. I don’t believe in sharia law. I believe in the constitution. I also believe In the Quran. However will I go and commit treason for that fact. HELL NO. Will I go and stop supporting our troops and bill of rights for sharia. HELL NO. Will I go and kill innocent people for Sharia law. HELL to the NO. The fact is that about 1 billion people are Muslim. Yet very very small percentage commits terror. But they are the over whelming majority of the “voice”. For now they represent Islam Until true Muslims must take a very large stand in demonizing these savages, actively supporting wounded warrior and 9/11 charities (etc. , and turn the Taliban into the Westbrook Baptist church. In the sense that no one cares about the WB church because they don’t have that “voice”. That’s what I think are main issues. Thank you for serving this nation. And I do support the right for you to call me a ‘GIRLY-MAN-WANNABE-LOSER- WHOS AFRIAD OF CONFRENTATION’.
-----GOD BLESS AMERICA AND ITS TROOP
------GIVE RESPECT OUT
Trapper John
10-01-2013, 05:45
And I do support the right for you to call me a ‘GIRLY-MAN-WANNABE-LOSER- WHOS AFRIAD OF CONFRENTATION’.
Glad to see you back GR! You have the courage of your convictions, IMO, and being an independent thinker that is willing to "put it out there" is a key SF trait. "girly-man-wannabe-loser"? Naah, don't think so!
One thing I would like you to consider: I think it was Winston Churchill who said something to the effect that all it takes for tyranny to prevail, is for good men to remain silent. (I'm sure Richard, or one of my other Brothers, will correct the historical context;))
So, in that vein, what are "moderate" Muslims doing? (I am still not convinced there is such a thing as a moderate Muslim). IMO, as a non-Muslim, you either are or you're not. There is no middle ground.
One thing I would like you to consider: I think it was Winston Churchill who said something to the effect that all it takes for tyranny to prevail, is for good men to remain silent. (I'm sure Richard, or one of my other Brothers, will correct the historical context;))
Holy Alex Turbek Batman! What is Edmund Burke.
So, in that vein, what are "moderate" Muslims doing? (I am still not convinced there is such a thing as a moderate Muslim). IMO, as a non-Muslim, you either are or you're not. There is no middle ground.
Good question. I too am interested in GiveRespect's answer.
............Good question. I too am interested in GiveRespect's answer.
It begins at Friday prayers - when the clerics begin pushing the jihad line. If the "moderate" Muslims sit there and let it go on and on then they are not "moderates". If they see the old guy talking to young kids and then the kids turn up in Somalia and they don't do something they are not "moderates".
Until they do that they are just inactive jihadies.
While we like to believe in moderate Muslims - remember, to good Muslims they are apostates.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/10/01/muslim-man-becomes-christian-after-recovering-from-brain-aneurysm/?intcmp=HPBucket
A Syrian-born Alabama man says he was a Muslim when a brain aneurysm left him in a prolonged coma, but when he surprised doctors with his recovery, it started him on a path to Christianity.
Karim Shamsi-Basha was raised in Syria with parents he says were tolerant of all faiths. His family practiced Islam mostly culturally, but Shamsi-Basha says he was "very serious” about his religion as a teenager. "I prayed five times a day. I walked to the mosque before sunrise. I fasted the month of Ramadan," Shamsi-Basha told the Christian Post.
Weary of Syrian President Bashar Assad’s regime, Shamsi-Basha immigrated to the U.S. when he was 18, to attend the University of Tennessee. After that, he married, had his first son, and moved to Birmingham, Ala. In 1992, he suffered a brain aneurysm that left him in a coma for almost a month.
When he awoke from the coma, his rare, almost total recovery amazed his neurosurgeon, who told Shamsi-Basha he was extremely fortunate and needed to find out why he survived.
That question started Shamsi-Basha on a 20-year journey that he says led him to Jesus Christ. He began reading the Bible and was baptized in 1996, but he says it took another 10 years of challenges -- including a divorce, his father’s death and becoming homeless -- before he fully accepted becoming a Christian.
Shamsi-Basha has documented that odyssey in a new book, “Paul and Me.” It’s part memoir, part philosophy, including various theologians’ thoughts about Paul, one of the Bible’s most central figures, whose own conversion took place in the Syrian city of Damascus.
Snip
Trapper John
10-01-2013, 09:45
Holy Alex Turbek [Trebek?] Batman! What is Edmund Burke.
See, GR, I told ya' one of the Brothers would correct me.;) Thanks, MR2, I was only 150 years off. :eek:
GiveRespect
10-01-2013, 19:12
I can identify with this whole “Islam is a beast which wishes to devour the west”, because my European culture experienced it. My southern European country was occupied for about 500 years. The Muslim invaders were fought off for 30 years before we were occupied. I grew listening to stories about our national hero who destroyed the Turks left and right until his death. So I understand this whole WAR with Islam. I don’t think were at war with Islam. I think that’s a very short sighted view. It’s my understanding that the strongest point of Special Forces is your ability to understand, adapt, and then teach the local culture you’re in. So I think it would be unproductive to view people as the enemy JUST because of their religion, tampering successful cooperation between you two. In my opinion young poor uneducated men fight America because they have been so successfully been brainwashed by propaganda. To me if it’s not religion, its nationalism, then family, then personal revenge. I don’t think there is any ONE thing that can demise the power of the Taliban. However blaming 1 billion people and demonizing them as traitors isn’t going to help. I’ve never read storied of Harvard educated Muslims fighting for the Taliban. I could be wrong on that please correct me. But I have read about very educated Muslim soldiers fighting and dying in the US military against the Taliban. Infect I’ve read about it on this website. I wouldn’t say we are at war with Islam. But with an international terror group that happens to Islam as propaganda. What if tomorrow a Christian group blows up 5 mosques in Germany, telling the world they have god on their side? What if that christen group blew up a parliament building because it’s not Christian enough citing versus from the bible? What if this international group made up of different nationalities released a tape saying until Europe becomes a center of Christ again, they will continue to attack. IS Europe at war with Christianity or this group? That’s my view, I could be wrong but I’m posting to learn from all of you.
-----GOD BLESS AMEICA AND ITS TROOPS
-----FLOYD MAYWEATHER BEST P4P ON THE PLANET
-----GIVE RESPECT OUT
The Reaper
10-01-2013, 19:36
What if tomorrow a Christian group blows up 5 mosques in Germany, telling the world they have god on their side? What if that christen group blew up a parliament building because it’s not Christian enough citing versus from the bible? What if this international group made up of different nationalities released a tape saying until Europe becomes a center of Christ again, they will continue to attack.
When was the last time that happened?
The difference is that Christians have not done this to muslim civilians in many years, and muslims are doing it to the rest of the world every day.
Christians and Jews are being persecuted, churches burned, women raped, and children murdered 365 days a year, all in the name of islam.
Where is the accountability?
Are we not all people of the book? When did muslims decide that Christians and Jews were sheep to be slaughtered? Or has this always been the policy?
Did you miss the news from Kenya? This is becoming a global religious war. At least by large numbers of muslims.
And BTW, OBL himself was from a well-eductated, wealthy family. It isn't just the poor and uneducated who are committing the heinous crimes.
I think we need to be Americans first, and members of a religion after that.
TR
What if tomorrow a Christian group blows up 5 mosques in Germany
I hate to say it, but I am to the point where I would probably go have a beer in celebration.
Oldrotorhead
10-01-2013, 20:32
GR,
What is 5% of a billion people? If Muslims don't control or inform on these "radicals" so they can be controlled then the consequences of what happen to the Muslim world fall on the Muslims no matter who they are or what they think.
Will you inform on a Imam that advocates attacks on Christians or Jews? How many in your Mosque or community will fight against them openly. I think if Muslims don't police their own someone else will.
I don't hate all Muslims several I consider friends. One Muslim woman was a guest in our house on Saturday, and I have knowingly had a Muslim friend that was armed behind my back, and was not worried. They are both upset with the idiots, but have taken no action to stop those idiots. A lot if Islam's future is in your hands, but it will not stay in your hands if these attacks continue.
Islam is at war with any other religion/creed....it always has been, it is not a 'moderate' religion by design.
All of the individuals that are killing Christians/rape marriage/burning church's in predominately Islamic countries do not fit the 'terrorist' profile.
They are often folks whipped up by a local Imam that live in that community.
The Police/military that stand by and observe are not 'terrorists'.
The Government officials that enact anti Christian laws (burned Church's may not be rebuilt without Govt. permission etc.) are not terrorists.
They are simply Muslims/Islam in the majority.....this is what you can expect in any majority Islamic State.
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/139917/reza-aslan/the-christian-exodus?cid=soc-facebook-in-snapshot-the_christian_exodus-091513
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/07/world/middleeast/islamists-seize-town-in-southern-egypt-and-attack-christians.html?_r=0
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/09/27/a-global-slaughter-of-christians-but-america-s-churches-stay-silent.html
GiveRespect
10-01-2013, 22:28
When was the last time that happened?
The difference is that Christians have not done this to Muslim civilians in many years, and Muslims are doing it to the rest of the world every day.”
No offense but I think you didn’t fully comprehend what I was trying to say , maybe I said it wrong ,but I don’t know how to rewrite my last post again .
“Where is the accountability?”
I mentioned that there needs to be more accountability. So I agree with you
“Are we not all people of the book? When did Muslims decide that Christians and Jews were sheep to be slaughtered? Or has this always been the policy?”
Muslims haven’t decided anything in regards to terrorism. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda’s leadership decides for its local population what goes on and how to treat other people. In fact didn’t Al-Qaeda spring out of the mujahedeen? Weren’t they the pro American capitals loving Muslims we supported. Didn’t we teach them to kill the soviets? Didn’t the corrupt men out of that origination such as UBL take advantage of a war torn poor nation and create a terrorist organization. ITS funny how afghan Muslims during the cold war were the good guys. But now since they spiraled out of control ALL Muslims are bad. It’s not a group which prosecutes its own people to keep them scared for their lives BUT ALL Muslims. It’s not a group that hides in Mosques and Hospitals and schools BUT ALL Muslims. It’s not a group that puts acid on little Muslim girls trying to get to school. BUT ALL MUSLIMS. Its not a group that decided to hijack a 2 planes and commit one of the worst American tragedies BUT ALL MUSLIMS even the ones that died that day.
“I think we need to be Americans first, and members of a religion after that.”
I agree with you 110 percent .
“I hate to say it, but I am to the point where I would probably go have a beer in celebration.”
That’s the attitude Nazis had about synagogues, that’s the Attitude Al-Qaeda and its followers had about 9-11. AM I calling you a Nazi or a terrorist? Of course not. But the moment you think like them, is the moment they beat you .
“What is 5% of a billion people? If Muslims don't control or inform on these "radicals" so they can be controlled then the consequences of what happen to the Muslim world fall on the Muslims no matter who they are or what they think“Will you inform on a Imam that advocates attacks on Christians or Jews? How many in your Mosque or community will fight against them openly. I think if Muslims don't police their own someone else will. “In my community that would never happen. An imam talking that nonsense has the grounds of him getting permanently replaced and look like the “village idiot”. However to answer your question yes I would. I would report him and I think have explained how the Muslim community needs to take more action.
I think have explained how the Muslim community needs to take more action.
And you are trying to convince them how, exactly? Is there a Q&A after prayers? Is there a suggestion box at the door of the mosque? Have you stood up in your community and challenged them to take action? If not, are you willing to?
Pat
“I hate to say it, but I am to the point where I would probably go have a beer in celebration.”
That’s the attitude Nazis had about synagogues, that’s the Attitude Al-Qaeda and its followers had about 9-11. AM I calling you a Nazi or a terrorist? Of course not. But the moment you think like them, is the moment they beat you .
I don't believe the Jews were running around Europe raping women, burning up churches, destroying malls, beheading non-Jews, all of which is the cornucopia terror we know as Islam aka the Religion of Peace.
However like the Religion of Peace, the Nazi's and the Japanese ran around the globe raping women, burning up churches, destroying cities, slaughtering millions and singling out groups like the Jews for slaughter.
So to put this in to context......you are saying the folks celebrating V-J Day and V-E Day had the same attitude as the Nazi's and AQI???
Trapper John
10-02-2013, 05:33
When was the last time that happened?
The difference is that Christians have not done this to Muslim civilians in many years, and Muslims are doing it to the rest of the world every day.”
No offense but I think you didn’t fully comprehend what I was trying to say , maybe I said it wrong ,but I don’t know how to rewrite my last post again .
“Where is the accountability?”
I mentioned that there needs to be more accountability. So I agree with you
“Are we not all people of the book? When did Muslims decide that Christians and Jews were sheep to be slaughtered? Or has this always been the policy?”
Muslims haven’t decided anything in regards to terrorism. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda’s leadership decides for its local population what goes on and how to treat other people. In fact didn’t Al-Qaeda spring out of the mujahedeen? Weren’t they the pro American capitals loving Muslims we supported. Didn’t we teach them to kill the soviets? Didn’t the corrupt men out of that origination such as UBL take advantage of a war torn poor nation and create a terrorist organization. ITS funny how afghan Muslims during the cold war were the good guys. But now since they spiraled out of control ALL Muslims are bad. It’s not a group which prosecutes its own people to keep them scared for their lives BUT ALL Muslims. It’s not a group that hides in Mosques and Hospitals and schools BUT ALL Muslims. It’s not a group that puts acid on little Muslim girls trying to get to school. BUT ALL MUSLIMS. Its not a group that decided to hijack a 2 planes and commit one of the worst American tragedies BUT ALL MUSLIMS even the ones that died that day.
“I think we need to be Americans first, and members of a religion after that.”
I agree with you 110 percent .
“I hate to say it, but I am to the point where I would probably go have a beer in celebration.”
That’s the attitude Nazis had about synagogues, that’s the Attitude Al-Qaeda and its followers had about 9-11. AM I calling you a Nazi or a terrorist? Of course not. But the moment you think like them, is the moment they beat you .
“What is 5% of a billion people? If Muslims don't control or inform on these "radicals" so they can be controlled then the consequences of what happen to the Muslim world fall on the Muslims no matter who they are or what they think“Will you inform on a Imam that advocates attacks on Christians or Jews? How many in your Mosque or community will fight against them openly. I think if Muslims don't police their own someone else will. “In my community that would never happen. An imam talking that nonsense has the grounds of him getting permanently replaced and look like the “village idiot”. However to answer your question yes I would. I would report him and I think have explained how the Muslim community needs to take more action.
Very good response, GR:lifter I think TR hit the nail on the head - we are all children of God (however you define it) and crimes against humanity that are perpetrated in the name of any religion, state, race, group, or cult are, in the end, still crimes against humanity.
"In all things there is an unequal portion of good and evil, the trick is to calculate the ratio and act accordingly" [Jester].
De Oppresso Liber!
GR,
Answer my query...why do average Muslims within Islamic countries participate in or stand by while their Christian neighbors are killed, raped or burned out.
This is happening in Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Sudan etc. etc. It cannot happen in Saudi Arabia because they won't even allow Christians to wear a cross, bring a Bible into the Country....they asked our Chaplains (while we were defending their Country) to remove any non Islamic symbols.
You live in the US, Muslims are a slim minority, go to an Islamic Country and see how Christians are treated.
This persecution of Christians has been going on for a very long time.
Don't give me 'People of the Book' stuff either...that early Meccan period stuff was abrogated and you know it.
All Muslims are not terrorists and all Muslims do not practice aggressive Islam.
Islam is flawed in that Muhammad is 'worshipped' if not directly but in 'fact'.
He is the most perfect human being and to be emulated.....and from this the terrorists spring as Muhammad by his own definition was a terrorist.
Why was every female soldier PW sexually abused? Why not, Muhammad said 'what you take with your right hand'.....and those taken in battle are 'property'...he did it, he condoned it and gave female slaves as booty to his followers.
Taken in an ancient context this was the norm....but in Islam Muhammad is the perfect man and what he did is not taken in any historical context....Al Azhar University and the Imams in SA continually issue Fatwa's based upon what M did then that is applicable now......there is no 'well, that was the attitude long ago, we've 'evolved'.
Raiding the Caravans still takes place today as does mutilation under sharia law....why were many of the victims in Kenya mutilated....sharia allows for mutilation of criminals and enemies.
People of the Book........not my book.
Remember: Evil exists because good men don't kill the government officials committing it -- Kurt Hofmann.
Remember: Evil exists because good men don't kill the government officials committing it -- Kurt Hofmann.
If evil is inherent within a religious/social conscript how does one kill that except from within?
Weren’t they the pro American capitals loving Muslims we supported. Didn’t we teach them to kill the soviets? Didn’t the corrupt men out of that origination such as UBL take advantage of a war torn poor nation and create a terrorist organization. ITS funny how afghan Muslims during the cold war were the good guys. But now since they spiraled out of control ALL Muslims are bad. It’s not a group which prosecutes its own people to keep them scared for their lives BUT ALL Muslims. It’s not a group that hides in Mosques and Hospitals and schools BUT ALL Muslims. It’s not a group that puts acid on little Muslim girls trying to get to school (GR wrote)
I can respect that fact that GR keeps coming back with his opinion but this is getting old. GR, get a Koran,a Reliance of the Traveler, copy of Milestones and read the damn things. What you are saying is apostasy in the Islamic world, period. You're tenacity is appreciated, however, at this point in the debate you need to have a minimal understanding of YOUR religion and you clearly do not. Web site after web site have been posted here for your benefit which I assume you have not looked at.
I agree with a previous post, if they start blowing up mosques (they being anyone other than muslims) I will be celebrating with a beer....and a pulled pork sandwich.
Trapper John
10-02-2013, 20:00
If evil is inherent within a religious/social conscript how does one kill that except from within?
You raise a very good point there Bro! And that brings me to a discussion I had with 98G this afternoon. Let's consider the possibility that the majority of Muslims do not take the teachings of Islam literally- they are "culturally" Muslim. They want to live their lives in peace and strive for the same things we all do. As a case in point, are all Catholics literal practicing Catholics? No, of course not. Many make life choices that are not in keeping with Catholic doctrine - they are Catholics by "culture". Could the same be true for Muslims? Logic would say yes.
If we accept the notion of "cultural" Muslims, then do they not represent a huge opportunity for us? What I am suggesting is that in this line of thinking "cultural" Muslims can be viewed as potential assets to rise up against the Islamic extremists to quash them with extreme prejudice. Isn't this exactly what we do in SF? Are we missing a force multiplication opportunity here? Maybe we have been looking at this whole issue through the wrong end of telescope?
Let's try out some new thinking on the issue and see where that leads.
I'd say there is some possibility to that except that Muhammad covered that base a long time ago.
Any Muslim that takes the side of a non Muslim over another Muslim commits sin...it is takfir....there is no exclusion for the subject matter.
Any Muslim that chooses non Muslim friends over Muslim friends is committing a sin.
It has to come from within Islam and those Muslims must, in fact, ignore or change their own doctrine.......throw out large elements of the Koran/Sira/Hadith and change their view/concept of Muhammad's actions as 'perfect' under any circumstance.
Fat chance.
When a cultural Catholic suddenly embraces his or her religion they do not blow up innocent (or guilty) people, commit suicide, throw acid on people, etc, etc. This can be said for EVERY other religion with the exception of islam. There is nothing in Christian, Jewish, Buddist doctrine that compels believers to harm, in any way, those that disagree with them. Sure, you can be a pain in the ass and generally unpleasent to be around but you CANNOT kill others, pretty simple rules. Additionally, to answer why there has been no uprising in the muslim religion against these terrorist groups is because they comply with Sharia law, to protest against them would be in direct violation of that law as well as the koran. If you want to do the SF thing, you would convert them to another....any other, religion.
Should have just waited for PRB to make his post.
GiveRespect
10-02-2013, 22:34
I try to make points, but at the end of the day almost all of you reply to me with "Islam sucks balls, Muhammad can blow my pet fish named Muhammad sucks” I think I have many valid points and they are almost never answered ,so I don’t know what to write anymore . I understand what the general attitude is, and it won’t change. At all. So in conclusion all Muslims are terrorists and all Muslims who aren’t fighting are actually inactive jihadists. We must put all Muslim citizens in internment camps to keep them from turning on us. Also, we must cut foreign aid to prominently Muslim countries because they will use those resources to attack us. Finally we must nuke Mecca to stop this plague known as Islam. And man when the mosques do get blown up I’m going to celebrate by eating a pig … Alive. And call it”Muhammad Gives Great Rim Jobs” (no fatwa’s were issued in the making of this post).
------STILL GOD BLESS AMERICA AND ITS TROOPS
------ WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO TOP 5 HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMP OF ALL TIME
------ GIVE RESPECT OUT
GR,
You never addressed any of the comments I made, you only made very general points we've all heard before.
I don't believe you really have an in depth understanding of your own Religion.
If you understood the relationship of the Koran to the Hadith/Sira and how that is interpreted by the gold standard of Islamic jurisprudence (Al Azhar University as an example) you wouldn't have asked some of the questions or made the 'points' you did.
Some of us speak Arabic and have worked in Islamic countries for nigh on to 30 years.
These are not abstract observations.
I try to make points, but at the end of the day almost all of you reply to me with "Islam sucks balls, Muhammad can blow my pet fish named Muhammad sucks” I think I have many valid points and they are almost never answered ,so I don’t know what to write anymore . I understand what the general attitude is, and it won’t change. At all. So in conclusion all Muslims are terrorists and all Muslims who aren’t fighting are actually inactive jihadists. We must put all Muslim citizens in internment camps to keep them from turning on us. Also, we must cut foreign aid to prominently Muslim countries because they will use those resources to attack us. Finally we must nuke Mecca to stop this plague known as Islam. And man when the mosques do get blown up I’m going to celebrate by eating a pig … Alive. And call it”Muhammad Gives Great Rim Jobs” (no fatwa’s were issued in the making of this post).
------STILL GOD BLESS AMERICA AND ITS TROOPS
------ WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO TOP 5 HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMP OF ALL TIME
------ GIVE RESPECT OUT
You are 18. We are only asking you to defend what is written in your Holy Book. You are here for a reason. It's up to you to tell us what that reason is. And, tell us what this means: "Confused young men make the best......"
Pat
GiveRespect
10-02-2013, 23:24
GR,
You never addressed any of the comments I made, you only made very general points we've all heard before.
I don't believe you really have an in depth understanding of your own Religion.
If you understood the relationship of the Koran to the Hadith/Sira and how that is interpreted by the gold standard of Islamic jurisprudence (Al Azhar University as an example) you wouldn't have asked some of the questions or made the 'points' you did.
Some of us speak Arabic and have worked in Islamic countries for nigh on to 30 years.
These are not abstract observations. ‘
I guess I don’t have a true understanding. I guess I’m a middle class white boy that doesn’t truly understand what is going on in the world. Most of you have first hand experienced I can only dream about. I’m tired that this is going nowhere. Maybe it’s both.
‘I agree with a previous post, if they start blowing up mosques (they being anyone other than muslims) I will be celebrating with a beer....and a pulled pork sandwich.’
You’re just a plain ignorant. I don’t know what to say anymore but I get it. I truly do.
‘ You are 18. We are only asking you to defend what is written in your Holy Book. You are here for a reason. It's up to you to tell us what that reason is. And, tell us what this means:’Im actually here, because I wanted to be here. No one forced me (not saying you did).I failed, I tired and I failed . I TRIED.I really did .I thought I explained …some-thing but I failed.
‘And, tell us what this means: Confused young men make the best......"
You earned the tab. You tell me
Give all of my respect to Trapper john, you’re the man .Not excluding anyone here even you hacksaw, like you care, you all are truly men among men who deserve the respect of all Americans. And most importantly, thank you. You are the men people should look up to not Kayne West or Lindsey lohans coke addiction .
In the end I sum up my opinion with
'Only idiots simplify to justify stupidity'-GiveRespect (actually quoted myself..kinda weird)
---ALLAH BLESS ALL THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND ITS TROOPS
---BOXING>MMA
--- GIVE RESPECT OUT
‘And, tell us what this means: Confused young men make the best......"
You earned the tab. You tell me.
No I didn't. I didn't even try. And I wouldn't if I had it to do over again. I had other plans. I respect these guys as brothers-in-arms as they do me, fly-boys, armor, artillery, and supply. It's the uniform, not the patch or tab.
Buck up! Support us, or join us. Your choice. ;)
Pat
p.s.: I joined the Army when I was 17.
Trapper John
10-03-2013, 05:58
I'd say there is some possibility to that except that Muhammad covered that base a long time ago.
Any Muslim that takes the side of a non Muslim over another Muslim commits sin...it is takfir....there is no exclusion for the subject matter.
Any Muslim that chooses non Muslim friends over Muslim friends is committing a sin.
It has to come from within Islam and those Muslims must, in fact, ignore or change their own doctrine.......throw out large elements of the Koran/Sira/Hadith and change their view/concept of Muhammad's actions as 'perfect' under any circumstance.
Fat chance.
You are absolutely correct, IF this is a static culture. I am questioning that view of Islam as static. Are we not seeing some evidence of changes in the culture today? Doesn't GR represent an example of a Muslim that does not take the tenets of Islam literally and inappropriate today? Didn't Christianity evolve from the days of the Inquisition? Couldn't Islam fracture into different sects just as Christianity did? As I asked earlier, are we missing an opportunity here to exploit and hasten a cultural change? If we continue to view this as a binary in black or white terms doesn't that create a no-win scenario?
Not too many things that I can think of are truly static and certainly not a culture of human beings.;)
The Reaper
10-03-2013, 08:29
I try to make points, but at the end of the day almost all of you reply to me with "Islam sucks balls, Muhammad can blow my pet fish named Muhammad sucks” I think I have many valid points and they are almost never answered ,so I don’t know what to write anymore . I understand what the general attitude is, and it won’t change. At all. So in conclusion all Muslims are terrorists and all Muslims who aren’t fighting are actually inactive jihadists. We must put all Muslim citizens in internment camps to keep them from turning on us. Also, we must cut foreign aid to prominently Muslim countries because they will use those resources to attack us. Finally we must nuke Mecca to stop this plague known as Islam. And man when the mosques do get blown up I’m going to celebrate by eating a pig … Alive. And call it”Muhammad Gives Great Rim Jobs” (no fatwa’s were issued in the making of this post).
------STILL GOD BLESS AMERICA AND ITS TROOPS
------ WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO TOP 5 HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMP OF ALL TIME
------ GIVE RESPECT OUT
That is not what has been said, and you are not exactly showing respect at this point.
Answer the questions you have been asked and participate in a discussion maturely without the hyperbole and exaggeration or go elsewhere to troll.
Frankly, you are coming across more as a petulant, immature teenager than a muslim.
Argue using the facts, not your emotions.
And be respectful of others and their opinions.
TR
FlagDayNCO
10-03-2013, 09:54
I have to believe there are many that are not following the rules. This has been going on for decades and the recent uprisings in the last decade are examples of this.
Many Middle Eastern nations have been allowing more Western (can't say Christian) dress, play, work habits as a means to satisfy the people. This has been the younger generations, but think that this is now a generation plus in the making. Remember Iraq before our involvement? I recall Iraq had the highest percentage of population of women and men following Western dress and styles.
The Muslim Brotherhood and many of the related splinter groups have been trying to reel this in. AQ was one extreme group (in our eyes), but they see themselves as Conservatives- wanting to follow the written rules with devastating effect to non-believers. The battles going on are not an "Arab Uprising", as much as it is the people fighting against MB types that want to keep the population opprressed.
I guess Progressivism can have a positive effect, when true believers of Islam can not keep the masses from shifting away.
It is also another glaring example of where our National Leaders are on the wrong side of the battle. In plain sight, Dear Leader has been supporting the MB and conservative Islam. Our national interests should have us supporting more moderate thinking.
Egypt is an example where American and Western influence have done America well, until a few years ago. Our military training influenced the thinking of Officers within their Army, as well as their government. Attached to the FID mission were numerous State projects and other forms of economic partnering, but we also gained a trading partner that was one of the top consumers of US manufactured goods.
Hearts and minds.
No, I do not doubt there are many that want to kill us. I have fought in enough of those countries to know this first hand. What we do know is there are many people in those countires that want nothing more than to live a peaceful life and detest the elements within their country that cause the problems, many times under the guise of "true Islam".
FlagDayNCO
10-03-2013, 10:02
My browser wasn't updated when I replied, so here is more.
Doc Illinois posts a very good point. Liberal Muslims.
I believe they are like Liberals in our society. A lot of voice but as the work (fight) becomes tougher, the numbers start to diminish.
The tough crowd of Islam happens to be the gang that is willing to fight and kill. I'm not too sure the moderates will ever be able to diminish their numbers or influence. There needs to be a major elimination of those hard liners, and trying to wait them out with pacification can never work.
The big hurdle we also face is we are not "from there" and are injecting ourselves into their society. That is their perspective.
We also have to convince our own people the dangers of allowing Islam to leak into our governments and society. This is a cancer.
Is there a way to influence more of the moderate Muslims to eliminate the hard liners? Right now, kinetic is the only thing to convince them.
Couldn't Islam fracture into different sects just as Christianity did?
How is that working out for the Ahmadi (Ahmadiya) Muslims in Pakistan and Indonesia?
FlagDayNCO
10-03-2013, 11:29
Here are some snips from an article in AT that brings some further to light to our own failing to correctly label this:
Rereading some early history books concerning the centuries-long jihad on Europe, it recently occurred to me how ignorant the modern West is of its own past. The historical narrative being disseminated today bears very little resemblance to reality.
Consider some facts for a moment:
A mere decade after the birth of Islam in the 7th century, the jihad burst out of Arabia. Leaving aside all the thousands of miles of ancient lands and civilizations that were permanently conquered, today casually called the "Islamic world" -- including Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and parts of India and China -- much of Europe was also, at one time or another, conquered by the sword of Islam.
In 846 Rome was sacked and the Vatican defiled by Muslim Arab raiders; some 700 years later, in 1453, Christendom's other great basilica, Constantinople's Holy Wisdom (or Hagia Sophia) was conquered by Muslim Turks, permanently.
Nor did America escape. A few years after the formation of the United States, in 1800, American trading ships in the Mediterranean were plundered and their sailors enslaved by Muslim corsairs. The ambassador of Tripoli explained to Thomas Jefferson that it was a Muslim's "right and duty to make war upon them [non-Muslims] wherever they could be found, and to enslave as many as they could take as prisoners."
Yet this may not even be necessary. Thanks to the West's ignorance of history, Muslims are flooding Europe under the guise of "immigration," refusing to assimilate, and forming enclaves which in modern parlance are called "enclaves" or "ghettoes" but in Islamic terminology are the ribat -- frontier posts where the jihad is waged on the infidel, one way or the other.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/10/surreal_and_suicidal_modern_western_histories_of_i slam.html
You are absolutely correct, IF this is a static culture. I am questioning that view of Islam as static. Are we not seeing some evidence of changes in the culture today? Doesn't GR represent an example of a Muslim that does not take the tenets of Islam literally and inappropriate today? Didn't Christianity evolve from the days of the Inquisition? Couldn't Islam fracture into different sects just as Christianity did? As I asked earlier, are we missing an opportunity here to exploit and hasten a cultural change? If we continue to view this as a binary in black or white terms doesn't that create a no-win scenario?
Not too many things that I can think of are truly static and certainly not a culture of human beings.;)
TJ,
Islam has not shown any major examples of evolving...on the contrary, some of the most stringent interpretations and mind sets (Wahabiism) as it relates to the Koran came about in the late 1700's early 1800's.
This form of Islam is 'pushed' by Saudi Arabia and the 'free Mosques' in the US come with a free Wahabi Imam.
Trapper John, GR does not have even a minimal understanding of his religion, I do not think we can use him as a microcosim of modern islam. Some day he may take to heart on what has been told to him on his religion and he will read up and either go one way or the other. Islam has been static for 14 centuries, it will remain that way, it is designed to be so. Maybe my opinion on this is harsh but it is from observation and living in their countries for the last 10 years. Historically speaking, this "war" has been going on a long time
. I think I have many valid points and they are almost never answered ,so I don’t know what to write anymore
GR, how can you accept Islam if you don't agree with its tenets?
The following is Islam, but is it acceptable?
Many things cannot be done without the Caliph’s permission, however:
.
(A: though if there is no Caliph (def: o25), no permission is required
(Reliance of the Traveller)
o4.17 There is no indemnity obligatory for killing a non-muslim…
(see pgs 593-598 - The Reliance of the Traveler: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law)
(O: Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada, signifying warfare to establish the religion.
o9.1 Jihad is a communal obligation (def: c3.2). When enough people perform it to successfully accomplish it, it is no longer obligatory upon others.
o9.8 The caliph makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians [kafirs] (N: provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya, def: o11.4) - which is the significance of their paying it, not the money itself-while remaining in their ancestral regions) (O: and the war continues) until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah Most High.
(Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law Pages 30-45, 588-595, 595-610).
w4.1 THE FINALITY OF THE PROPHET’S MESSAGE (from a1.5)
(2) Previously revealed religions were valid in their own eras, as is attested to by many verses of the holy Koran, but were abrogated by the universal message of islam, as is equally attested to by many verses in the Koran…
…it is unbelief (kufr) to hold that the remnant cults now bearing the names of formerly valid religions, such as “Christianity” or “Judaism,”…
(3) islam is the final religion that allah most high will never lessen or abrogate until the last day.
(Pgs. 846-848 - The Reliance of the Traveler: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law)
What happens for the professing kufr you may ask?
The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
a 1.5 ...a person is not morally obligated by Allah to do or refrain from anything unless the invitation of a prophet and what Allah has legislated have reached him (n:w4) ....
...."We do not punish until we send a messenger" (Koran 17:15)
c2.5 The unlawful (haram) is what the Law giver strictly forbids. Someone who commits an unlawful act deserves punishment...
(3) and unbelief (kufr), sins which put one beyond the pale of Islam (as discussed at o8.7) and neccessitate stating the Testification of faith (Shahada)...
(pgs 30-31)
o8.2 In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (A: or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed
o8.7 (2) to intend to commit unbelief, even if in the future. And like this intention is hesitating whether to do so or not: one therby immediately commits unbelief:
(15) to hold that any of Allah's messengers or prophets are liars, or to deny their being sent:
(Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law Pages 30-45, 588-595, 595-610).
http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Traveller-Classic-Islamic-Al-Salik/dp/0915957728
If one is going to insist that a practitioner of a set of beliefs answer for the history of that set of beliefs, what is to stop others from holding us to the same level of accountability and suspicion?
For example, many Americans talk about states' rights. But how many could lay out the intellectual, political, social, military, and cultural history of that concept and its many twists and turns? Should today's advocates of states' rights be held accountable for how that belief system has impacted adversely not only this country's history, but the history of the world as well?
My point is that we take grave risks if we set standards of inquiry and conduct for other peoples without holding ourselves to a similar set of rules.
My $0.02.
. If one is going to insist that a practitioner of a set of beliefs answer for the history of that set of beliefs, what is to stop others from holding us to the same level of accountability and suspicion?
IMO, Moral relativism isn't an excuse to dismiss immoral behavior...
In Islam, the Prophet Muhammad is known as al-Insān al-Kāmil (the perfect human) and uswa hasana (an excellent model of conduct). -Sura 68:4/33:21, etc.-
It wouldn't be an issue if Muslims didn't truly believe that the Prophet Muhammad was the sacred model to emulate, not only by all Muslims, but entire mankind.
I can think of no other historical figures that have affected our modern world more negatively than those of Muhammad.
If standards is good, then double standards is twice as good?
Trapper John
10-04-2013, 07:06
I agree that the tenets of Islam are a static belief system as PRB suggests (no evidence of its evolution) and that it is designed as such. Wouldn't that, therefore, be its fatal flaw? I contend that Islam was contrived by Muhammad merely as a method for controlling people for his own personal interests. That it has been expanded to what it is today is nothing more than a tool for control by oppression. Every system that has endeavored to control people by oppression has ultimately failed. Islam will also fail. We can either hasten that end or prolong it.
In my view we are at War with Islam and Islam is at War with us and every other non-Muslim, by definition. My question is, are we approaching this the right way? History would suggest not.
To continue the fight from the perspective that I am right you are wrong and justifying our position from a historical context leads to the problem Sig points out -
If one is going to insist that a practitioner of a set of beliefs answer for the history of that set of beliefs, what is to stop others from holding us to the same level of accountability and suspicion?
There's no advancing from that position - stalemate.
I think the battlefield is the human domain. The most striking lesson I learned in SF while working with indigenous peoples (although only briefly with Muslims) is that at the core they are just like me. We aspire to the same things. That's a common ground from which we can win. (FlagDayNCO, I am honored that you picked up on that point in your signature line.)
Hacksaw, GR may not represent a microcosm of the Muslim world, I need to defer to your and PRBs experience on that one. But, he does represent a start and a point for force multiplication.
De Oppresso Liber :lifter
I agree that the tenets of Islam are a static belief system as PRB suggests (no evidence of its evolution) and that it is designed as such. Wouldn't that, therefore, be its fatal flaw? I contend that Islam was contrived by Muhammad merely as a method for controlling people for his own personal interests. That it has been expanded to what it is today is nothing more than a tool for control by oppression. Every system that has endeavored to control people by oppression has ultimately failed. Islam will also fail. We can either hasten that end or prolong it.
In my view we are at War with Islam and Islam is at War with us and every other non-Muslim, by definition. My question is, are we approaching this the right way? History would suggest not.
To continue the fight from the perspective that I am right you are wrong and justifying our position from a historical context leads to the problem Sig points out -
There's no advancing from that position - stalemate.
I think the battlefield is the human domain. The most striking lesson I learned in SF while working with indigenous peoples (although only briefly with Muslims) is that at the core they are just like me. We aspire to the same things. That's a common ground from which we can win.
De Oppresso Liber :lifter
In my mind, we prolong it by challenging it in a manner, as Sigaba pointed out, few of our own could effectively argue. There are about 1.6 billion Muslims, or 23% of the world’s population, making Islam the second-largest religion. So we can argue that they must all read more and then convert or be terrorists... or we can try and co-opt the moderate muslims to separate from the extremists as they keep their cultural identity. There are areas of differences. They seem a better starting point than getting 800 million people not only literate (the current estimate of non-literate muslims) but also well-read and versed in their religion. Statistically, not even the literate will be as well read in Islam as some members of this site. Here is an except from Pew Research.
The world’s 1.6 billion Muslims are united in their belief in God and the Prophet Muhammad and are bound together by such religious practices as fasting during the holy month of Ramadan and almsgiving to assist people in need. But they have widely differing views about many other aspects of their faith, including how important religion is to their lives, who counts as a Muslim and what practices are acceptable in Islam, according to a worldwide survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life.
The survey, which involved more than 38,000 face-to-face interviews in over 80 languages, finds that in addition to the widespread conviction that there is only one God and that Muhammad is His Prophet, large percentages of Muslims around the world share other articles of faith, including belief in angels, heaven, hell and fate (or predestination). While there is broad agreement on the core tenets of Islam, however, Muslims across the 39 countries and territories surveyed differ significantly in their levels of religious commitment, openness to multiple interpretations of their faith and acceptance of various sects and movements.
...
Generational differences are also apparent. Across the Middle East and North Africa, for example, Muslims 35 and older tend to place greater emphasis on religion and to exhibit higher levels of religious commitment than do Muslims between the ages of 18 and 34. In all seven countries surveyed in the region, older Muslims are more likely to report that they attend mosque, read the Quran (also spelled Koran) on a daily basis and pray multiple times each day. Outside of the Middle East and North Africa, the generational differences are not as sharp. And the survey finds that in one country – Russia – the general pattern is reversed and younger Muslims are significantly more observant than their elders. http://www.pewforum.org/2012/08/09/the-worlds-muslims-unity-and-diversity-executive-summary/
Reading the full report, there seems to be logical places to start. Something I recall about divide and... ;) IMHO, it certainly points out (within the full report) a potential for a force multiplier strategy.
My point is that we take grave risks if we set standards of inquiry and conduct for other peoples without holding ourselves to a similar set of rules.
My $0.02.
Along the lines of an exemption from Obamacare for Congress and the unions?
The Reaper
10-04-2013, 10:03
....There are about 1.6 billion Muslims, or 23% of the world’s population, making Islam the second-largest religion....
I think the biggest problem is that a significant portion of those 1.6 billion muslims are never going to stop killing in the name of allah until there is only one religion, for 100% of the population of the planet.
Whether we are at war or not is irrelevant. They are, and will be for the forseeable future.
Personally, I am not sure that there is anything we can do about it, other than to try and stop them where we can.
Maybe a muslim Martin Luther will emerge. Unfortunately, he will be considered an apostate by the true believers.
TR
"If one is going to insist that a practitioner of a set of beliefs answer for the history of that set of beliefs, what is to stop others from holding us to the same level of accountability and suspicion?"
Every comment I've made regarding Islam is in reference to its practice today....I only reference its 'history' because that history is as valid today as it was in its time...there is no difference in Islamic jurisprudence.
Muhammad is basically 'worshipped' as the most perfect man and his example is to be emulated......there are no provisions for allowing for antiquity.
David Pearl had his head cut off because Muhammad designated that method of slaughter for captured enemies. The Islamists refer to the Hadith, Sira and Koran when committing ritual murder so as to be 'correct'.
Islamic law is not an abstract.
It is written as to what hand you wipe your ass with, how you blow your nose, if you fart during prayer that prayer is abrogated.
Sharia is drawn from Muhammad's actions/example and law giving.
That a woman is worth half of a man...in court. That it takes 4 witnesses to confirm a rape occurred etc. etc......
This is not some abstract relationship between you and allah....it is a lock step eyes right.
Trapper John
10-04-2013, 10:36
Maybe a muslim Martin Luther will emerge. Unfortunately, he will be considered an apostate by the true believers.
TR
I was thinking the same thing. Martin Luther was considered an apostate in his day. Didn't stop him.;)
Maybe a muslim Martin Luther will emerge. Unfortunately, he will be considered an apostate by the true believers.
TR
Sounds like a good premise for a new Phoenix Program. A Thirty Years War would par things down to a more manageable Crusade.
The Reaper
10-04-2013, 11:00
I was thinking the same thing. Martin Luther was considered an apostate in his day. Didn't stop him.;)
I thought he was a heretic?
TR
Trapper John
10-04-2013, 13:06
Sounds like a good premise for a new Phoenix Program. A Thirty Years War would par things down to a more manageable Crusade.
Now that's doin' it SF Style! :lifter
Trapper John
10-04-2013, 13:08
I thought he was a heretic?
TR
Yep, that too. Along with Galileo, Copernicus, and some notable others. Pretty good company if you ask me ;)
FlagDayNCO
10-04-2013, 13:12
As many of the original posts in this thread noted, we have to continue to search for and root out every facet and tactic they are using. Kinetic response (or even pre-emptive strikes) is only a portion of our playbook, at this time. We need to identify more of these Progressive Muslims and work them further. At the same time, the other options should not be diminished.
The Persian Kingdom is emerging again, at speeds faster than even the Muslims ever imagined, thanks in no part to the current POTUS and his Minions. This is not a recent occurrence, but has been developing for decades. Iran and the MB have well laid out plans for their emergence and believed domination, but they did not factor in such wide spread retaliation from their own kind. For Persians, conflict was not limited to the operation of armies, but was carried on behind the front by Persian agents and partisans, by subversion and sabotage, and by propaganda and indoctrination. We should also identify that there is no history to this cause, it is absolute in their terms and considered current for their way of thinking. What we view on our calendar from a thousand years ago is current to them.
The Phoenix plays a part in Persian history. Iran Air uses it as their logo. MR2 is on to something.
This all has to be done knowing that our own people are working in support of the Muslim creep. Whether it is various levels of our government assisting the Muslim cause, partnering with them in some political show of "Make Friends", or business influences, the approach of getting their own to dilute the spread of Muslim into our governance is paramount. We need to use this to help us defend our nation and way of life.
I've been doing this with a Moroccan at my work. He is a Muslim, but absolutely does not agree with Islam by Force. His family follows the same path, which was nationally recognized. Religious freedom is protected under Moroccan Constitution. What is interesting is he shares that an over whelming majority of his "people" back home feel the same way. Yes, there are growing concerns with the MB there, but the people are working to shut that down. His attending prayer here in America helps push his view onto others, so they can see that it is possible to be less intense in their faith.
A Muslim MLK may never emerge, as the True Believers would claim he is diluting Muhammad’s stature and kill him. Then again, there is so much derisive fighting amongst the Islamic world, we may just need to feed the beast.
I think the biggest problem is that a significant portion of those 1.6 billion muslims are never going to stop killing in the name of allah until there is only one religion, for 100% of the population of the planet.
Whether we are at war or not is irrelevant. They are, and will be for the forseeable future.
Personally, I am not sure that there is anything we can do about it, other than to try and stop them where we can.
Maybe a muslim Martin Luther will emerge. Unfortunately, he will be considered an apostate by the true believers.
TR
What I liked in the Pew Research report is that it breaks down by age, by country, by type, etc... so that the sorting function is more controllable. The idea is not to further alienate and challenge 1.6B people, but use vocabulary and focus on where the best leverage points exist. They vary by region and demographic. Isolating a smaller set seems a better approach to me. 800 million are illiterate, so expecting any nuanced understanding from that segment is probably not going to pan out. It is not a solution, but rather places to chip away and plant new ideas.
I admit, it may be no more than an attempt to drive around a blocked road on the wrong one, but it also may be a decent shortcut as well. And the road is blocked...
While nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer,
nothing is more difficult than to understand him.
- Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky -
Just throwing out my simple observations and opinions to add to the more educated and experienced on the subject.
Almost universally, the most recent acts of terror (worldwide) perpetrated by Muslims (wherever located) express grievances against the West on behalf of all Muslims.
Second, regardless of the nationality or ethnicity of the terrorist involved - the one common denominator for many of the recent attacks was that such acts were perpetrated by devout Muslims - true believers who see the world in black and white - us versus them.
Third, it is not uncommon to hear both leader and foot solider terrorist alike, speak of establishing a Caliphate.
Fourth, the terrorists all express a deep hatred of the West - especially the United States.
As for moderate Muslims managing the relatively "small" percentage of radical Muslims...the radical Muslims are just no fun...they are on a mission from Allah...if your argue with them they may kill you. So who is really driving the bus and how does that bode for an actual reduction in violence?
IMO, all Muslims are certainly not the enemy, but Islam has been at war with the West since its inception. One need merely look at all the seemingly unconnected attacks worldwide by Muslims against non-Muslims. I maintain that the attacks are not random and in fact are connected by one root ideology. At this stage, who is at war with whom might be less important than the West aggressively killing the folks who mean to does us harm (and for the most part they let us know who they are) and the West continue developing, as best we can, our counter to the breeding grounds of terrorism - ignorance, poverty, discontent, unemployment and propaganda. People are dying in the name of Allah...lots of them.
See the link below and scroll down:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2013.htm
IMO, all Muslims are certainly not the enemy, but Islam has been at war with the West since its inception. One need merely look at all the seemingly unconnected attacks worldwide by Muslims against non-Muslims. I maintain that the attacks are not random and in fact are connected by one root ideology.
Yep
The Reaper
10-04-2013, 15:16
The muslims came within a hair's breadth of overrunning all of Europe at Vienna in 1683.
Less than 100 years before our independence, the horde was at the gates besieging the city when the Poles arrived and saved Europe.
Does anyone think that was the end of it?
TR
Roguish Lawyer
10-04-2013, 15:58
Less than 100 years before our independence, the horde was at the gates besieging the city when the Poles arrived and saved Europe.
Fortunately this was before light bulbs were invented.
Fortunately this was before light bulbs were invented.
:D:D:D:D
Gong!!!
Trapper John
10-05-2013, 20:05
The XO and I were sitting on the back porch this morning enjoying the start of a new day. As is her custom, she opened the paper to read and out fell the Parade magazine insert with the picture of Malala Yousafzai captioned "The Face of Courage". Well, that started me thinking about this thread, the demographics of the Muslim world and their beliefs (thanks to 98G), and a Phoenix Program Redux (MR2 is on to something IMO), and the many thoughtful posts of the rest of you here.
Maybe it is young Muslim women that we should target as assets to begin the change? Malala in her view is not unique - she represents the aspirations of most young women of her generation. (98G you might want to verify that from the Pew demographic study.) These are the Muslims we need to support. Their enlightenment with proper support, education, and protection (the darker side of the Phoenix Program comes into play here) would be unstoppable, IMO.
And before my Brothers chastise me for suggesting an army of girls, (I hear the snickering :D) I can tell you from experience of raising two girls, they can be vicious when crossed - like being locked in a closet with a wolverine. :D Exploitable assets? You bet!
And while I'm at it, GR, I can say with almost certainty that Malala would not run away and pout when she was challenged.;)
Maybe there might be an 'in'.....
There is no ambiguity in Islam, Koran. Hadith, Sira or Sharia law as to women's inferiority.
After military conquest Muhammad would give out captured women, in at least one case he asked that they be raped in front of their husbands. They were then the sex slaves/concubines of the new 'owner'...there are 4 Koranic verses that allows that the owner has full sexual rights with his new slave. There are no verses that prohibit rape. (One of the reasons all US female PW's were sexually abused....it is allowed)
The Koran has verses that allow a man to beat his wife...no where does it command him to love her. It states a man 'Is a degree above her' and the Hadith says that they are intellectually inferior and are the majority of hells occupants (because they are weak of will).
A man may divorce his wife at will, if he does this twice and then wishes to remarry she must have sex with another man first (Sharia)...men are exempt from this type of degradation.
Women are not free to marry whom they will as are men...a husband can also marry 3 more wives at his will.
She must be available at all times for sex (as a field ready to be tilled) according to the Koran.
Women do not inherit proportionally to men as they are half of a man.
Her word in court is worth half of that of a man.
If a woman is raped there must be 4 male witnesses or she can be charged with adultery not rape. She can be stoned to death...the male gets lashed.
If an Islamic woman is killed in an accident the blood money is half of that for a man.
If the woman killed is not Islamic it is halved again.
Etc.Etc.....
Islam in Arabic means 'submission' and that submission is twice the load for any female.
Western Females (NOW types) don't seem to have any problems with any of that - as long as it's not the Southern Baptists....
I have been reading this thread with fascination and appreciate the level of intimate knowledge you all have learned about this religion. I know this thread is not comparing Islam with Christianity, but in pondering the question posed by the OP, I can't help but do so.
In Christianity, free will is paramount, as God wants us to come to him of our own free will and not by force. Islam seems to be a requirement for all believers and non-believers must be forced into it. (I know there are examples in history where this is not the case, but for the past few centuries, Christianity has not been killing non-believers while followers of radical Islam have.)
Christianity follows the Ten Commandments, including "thou shalt not kill", while Islam encourages murder of non-believers and degradation of women.
Our country was founded with the belief that all should have the freedom to worship, or not worship, as they see fit. Radical Islam is not of the same opinion.
In all religions, there are the devout, and the less devout, and the not-so-much. But even the not-so-much devout Christian believes the core principles of Christianity even if they don't always follow them. I am assuming it is the same for Islam. There are also those that pick and choose what they will or won't believe in on both sides, but that is probably not the majority.
So, in theory, if we are not at war with Islam itself, IMO, we should be. And I like the idea of fighting it from within. It seems it would have to be an insidious method to achieve success and chane their way of thinking and the basic fundamentals of their beliefs.
Trapper John
10-06-2013, 06:21
I have been reading this thread with fascination and appreciate the level of intimate knowledge you all have learned about this religion. I know this thread is not comparing Islam with Christianity, but in pondering the question posed by the OP, I can't help but do so.
In Christianity, free will is paramount, as God wants us to come to him of our own free will and not by force. Islam seems to be a requirement for all believers and non-believers must be forced into it. (I know there are examples in history where this is not the case, but for the past few centuries, Christianity has not been killing non-believers while followers of radical Islam have.)
Christianity follows the Ten Commandments, including "thou shalt not kill", while Islam encourages murder of non-believers and degradation of women.
Our country was founded with the belief that all should have the freedom to worship, or not worship, as they see fit. Radical Islam is not of the same opinion.
In all religions, there are the devout, and the less devout, and the not-so-much. But even the not-so-much devout Christian believes the core principles of Christianity even if they don't always follow them. I am assuming it is the same for Islam. There are also those that pick and choose what they will or won't believe in on both sides, but that is probably not the majority.
So, in theory, if we are not at war with Islam itself, IMO, we should be. And I like the idea of fighting it from within. It seems it would have to be an insidious method to achieve success and chane their way of thinking and the basic fundamentals of their beliefs.
To change "their way of thinking and basic fundamentals of the their beliefs" is an exercise in futility, IMO. You simply cannot change who a person is or any group of people's core beliefs. To fight this battle ("war") from the point of view of Christianity v Islam is a trap and is a no win argument for the reasons that Sigaba and others have pointed out.
The objective (again my opinion) is to find the groups or a demographic that already aspire to personal liberty and reject the subjugation of Islam. The Pew report that 98G references seems to identify possible demographic groups that are aspiring to that. Malala is a case in point and the women under the age of 25 may be the target assets. And the more I think about it, the better I like MR2s idea of a Phoenix Program Redux as a means.
Pete, to your point, I hadn't thought about it, but I don't recall NOW getting their panties in a knot over the subjugation of women under Islam either. Hmmmm!
To change "their way of thinking and basic fundamentals of the their beliefs" is an exercise in futility, IMO. You simply cannot change who a person is or any group of people's core beliefs. To fight this battle ("war") from the point of view of Christianity v Islam is a trap and is a no win argument for the reasons that Sigaba and others have pointed out.
The objective (again my opinion) is to find the groups or a demographic that already aspire to personal liberty and reject the subjugation of Islam. The Pew report that 98G references seems to identify possible demographic groups that are aspiring to that. Malala is a case in point and the women under the age of 25 may be the target assets. And the more I think about it, the better I like MR2s idea of a Phoenix Program Redux as a means.
Pete, to your point, I hadn't thought about it, but I don't recall NOW getting their panties in a knot over the subjugation of women under Islam either. Hmmmm!
I don't disagree with anything you said. I was simply contrasting Christianity and Islam. I agree it shouldn't the "war" shouldn't be fought that way. If the Muslims want to be Muslim, I have no wish to talk them out of it. But I do like, as I mentioned, working from the inside, such as using the Malala's in Islam to aide in making a change. Women can influence their children's way of thinking, and if the mindset of the children can be changed, there is hope.
As a woman (raised as Southern Baptist, but not subscribing to all of the beliefs), I have supported the womens' movement (also not subscribing to all of their beliefs) in things such as equal pay for equal work, but have never subscribed to the fact that men and women are equal. Both sexes have different strengths and weaknesses and excel at different things. In things in which we are equal, the business world for example, there should be equality. I am saying this to say that in this regard, I have always supported charities that assist women in this manner, helping them to become more self-sufficient, and in fighting mysogony in their cultures. There are many women's organizations fighting these atrocities, including under age marriage, the rape issues, female circumcision, and other utterly barbaric acts committed in the name of the Islamic religion.
The Reaper
10-06-2013, 09:47
I am not sure how you would go about changing religious beliefs without going after the believers. While we might want islam to go away, I see no sign that we could accomplish that, even if we all agreed on it.
Islam is not only a religion with primitive tenets, but it is also a theocratic political system, and the end requirement is that all non-believers convert, or face the sword.
The largest part of the islamic population is in Asia. At the same time, thus far, they seem to be the least militant. Maybe there is a way to create a schism, but even with that, we are going to have to fight a lot of people who hate us, our religion, our beliefs, and our way of life.
Make no mistake, once the muslims have a nuke, they will be looking for a way to employ it to cause us (the Western world, esp. Israel and the USA) maximum harm. It is allah's will and is undeniable.
Sad, but true.
TR
Oldrotorhead
10-06-2013, 10:20
I think the 10 Commandments did not say t"Thou shalt not kill But Thou shelt not murder. The wording has changed over 2 millia. I could be wrong but this is the way I interpret it, and my way is as good as most clergy.:D
I think the 10 Commandments did not say t"Thou shalt not kill But Thou shelt not murder. The wording has changed over 2 millia. I could be wrong but this is the way I interpret it, and my way is as good as most clergy.:D
I think you are correct, sir.
Muslims must fight terrorism
http://www.arabnews.com/news/466789
"In his article “Gulf between perception and reality of Muslims” (Oct.3), Aijaz Zaka Syed has once again echoed the feelings of all Muslims around the globe who feel bad about the way the entire community is being blamed for the wrongdoings of a few, who in the name of Islam are wreaking havoc around the world and giving a bad name to Islam and Muslims at large.
It is sad to hear and read reports about killings and violence perpetrated by deviant groups who claim to be waging a “holy war.”......."
I post this not so much for the story - but to read the story and then the comments.
Trapper John
10-06-2013, 12:20
Very, very enlightening post, Pete. Especially the comments. A couple of observations - (1) clear polarization of thoughts, (2) astounding ignorance of the tenets of Islam among Muslims, (3) noted the backlash from historical argument Sigaba cautioned about, (4) confirms to me that there are in fact assets to be exploited from within.
Some good intel there Bro, thanks. :lifter
Please pardon the length of this post; but it is what I wrote to answer another Muslim individual elsewhere, who also did not seem too sure of just what his religion was all about. I am hoping that GR may have a look at this. Agree or disagree, it at least gives food for thought and serious study and reflection about what Islam "offers" to its adherents.
Answering Muslims -- my version:
Islam is not the truth! It's the best and longest-running con that Satan ever pulled. Unfortunately, its primary victims are Muslims themselves who will never know the love of a loving God. Jesus Christ did die; and he died for you as well as for me. Don't believe me? Ask, with a sincere heart, for God to show you the truth. He will.
And to those who question how God can be three persons... Well, in order to be able to fully comprehend this we would need to be God, which we are not. It is impossible for us, not for God. It is not within human understanding to be able to explain that mystery completely. That is why Jesus Christ referred to Himself as the Son of the Father. Jesus, by His divine nature was/is God; but in His human nature, was less than God. However, Jesus, in His humility, did not see equality with God, the Father, as something to be grasped at (unlike Lucifer/Satan). The closest I've ever heard anyone be able to explain this "Three-in-One" phenomenon is a nun on EWTN: Mother Angelica. The way she explained it was that we - each of us - is one human being; but we each have memory, intellect and will. Those are three separate and distinct parts of each of us; but they are not separate from us.
Jesus Christ is God. (“I and the Father are one.” “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” “Before Abraham was, I AM.”) [“I AM” being the name God told to Moses when Moses asked: “Who shall I say has sent me, Lord?”] No, Jesus was not in the least confused about just who and what He was. God came to us as a human so that His birth, His works, what He said, His death and His resurrection could be recorded in history. He paid the penalty for all the sins of humanity, since we would be unable to do so without suffering eternal death. God is love, but He is also just; and penalty for sin must be paid. God loved us so much that He took that penalty upon Himself so that we could once more be united with Him. Instead of arguing about whether or not Jesus Christ was crucified, we should be down on our knees with tears of humility and gratitude, thanking Him for His love and His sacrifice.
I know that it does not look like strength for God (as Jesus Christ) to die in such a horrible and ignominious manner, but He did. Jesus said that "No one takes my life. I have been given authority to lay down my life, and to take it up again." Therein is Christ's victory over Lucifer/Satan, over sin and over death; and believe me, it pissed Satan off no end. Lucifer/Satan hates God; but his arms are too short to box with God, so his plan was to get back at God by attacking what God loves – His children. That's us. The Almighty and ever-loving God does not want any of us lost to Him; but He gave us (as He gave the angels) free will - to love and serve Him, or to reject Him. Satan wants us - every one of us - to suffer as he does; and to lose the joy of life everlasting with a loving God.
Here are some ways you can tell that the one who Mohammed supposedly was quoting was not God, but Satan:
* Almighty God is the author and architect of life, not death. Pain, death and suffering only came to be because our first parents (Adam and Eve) were seduced by Satan to disobey God. It was Satan who was - and still is - a liar and "…a murderer from the beginning".
* Almighty God is not proud. He humbled Himself to become one of us in every way but sin; and died a horrible and shameful (in the eyes of man) death on a cross. Lucifer/Satan is proud. He wanted to be God; but as we all know, that was impossible. Lucifer/Satan was merely a creature of God, as we all are. So Lucifer/Satan, and approximately one third of the angels that God created, rebelled; and were cast out of heaven. (Hebrew: Satan – adversary.) Satan has used his main vice - pride - against humanity from the very beginning. Listen to what "allah" supposedly tells Mohammed: that Muslims (males) are the very best of creatures. What does that do? It engenders in Muslims (males particularly) a false sense of pride, which pushes them away from the true God.
When Jesus heard a few of His disciples arguing about who was the greatest among them, Jesus said: "Whoever among you who wishes to be the greatest among you must be the servant of you all." His message? Jesus (God) came to this Earth to serve, not to be served. Any of us who wish to be pleasing to God must imitate Christ's life on Earth, plain and simple; and that doesn't mean having a puffed-up ego thinking that "we are the best of creatures". That means acknowledging who and what we are, sinners - all of us, whose only salvation was made possible by the love and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. That means also acknowledging who and what God is – the Creator of all things, and our Heavenly Father.
* God does not deceive, nor can He be deceived. He knows everything that is in our hearts and minds. In Islam, one of the names for "allah" is "the great deceiver".
* God is love; and Jesus preached - and lived - God's love. Jesus did not incite any to war or to hate others. He told His apostles to go and preach the "Good News" of salvation; and if any town did not want to hear the message, to "Shake the dust of that town from their sandals so that it would be a testament unto them." Islam - with its concept of "jihad" - incites Muslims to hate the "infidels"; and to "make war against them until all proclaim that there is no god but allah and Mohammed is his messenger".
* God said to mankind: "Two ways are set before you, O man: the way of life and the way of death. Therefore choose life." (One that I would recommend the pro-abortionists take heed.) Mohammed tells us that "there is no greater glory than to slay and to be slain for allah".
* God the Father’s heaven is one where we enjoy eternity with our Creator. This is purely spiritual. Mohammed's view of eternity is one that appeals only to the carnal lusts of man. Does that sound like what the True God would promise to those who love and serve Him? Nope. Sounds like another con from the greatest con-artist ever known: Satan. Sorry guys. There will not be 72 virgins awaiting your beck and call; and no eternal erections either.
Are you getting the idea? If you still don't believe me, read the Quran and haddiths. Then start reading the Bible. Above all, ask God, with a sincere and humble heart, to show you the truth. Jesus said that: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I'll leave you with that thought.
The Ahmadiyya sect is far from mainstream Islam and is considered non Muslim by Sunni's and Shia alike.......their love and peace message without the other elements of Islam violate the basic creed.
Their founder was a bit off his rocker.
If any modification of Islamic behavior and outlook is to take any real hold it will have to be a Sunni group or individual.
Home run.
Thank you, Dusty. I'm No.2 - I try harder.:D
Oldrotorhead
10-06-2013, 18:26
Here is a list of different sects/ divisions of Islam and a one line overview of each.
The Sufi are anothergroup that is as much mystic as Islam and they pretty much get along with most other religions. On the other hand Wahabbi's dislike everyone and I think they don't even like themselves very much.
www.real-islam.org
Name of the Sect
Basic Belief Distinguishing
it from Others
1.
Jarudiyah
Followers of Abu'l-Jarud, They believe Prophet (pbuh) designated Ali (ra) as the Imam by his characteristics but not by name.
2.
Sulaimaniah / Jaririyah
Followers of Sulaiman ibn-Jarir al-Zaidi, They believed Imamat was a matter of conference and could be confirmed by two best Muslims.
3.
Butriyah / Hurariyah
They did not dispute the Khilafat of Uthman, neither they attack him nor praise him.
4.
Yaqubiyya
They accepted the Khilafat of Abu Bakr and Umar, but did not reject those who rejected these Khulafaa. They also believed that Muslim committers of Major sins will be in hell fire forever.
5.
Hanafiyah
Followers of the Imammate of Muhammad ibn-al-Hanifah. They believe that Allah might have had a beginning.
6.
Karibiyah
They believed that Imam Muhammad ibn-al-Hanifah is not dead and is the Imam Ghaib (in disappearance) and the expected Mahdi.
7.
Kamiliyah
Followers of abu-Kamil. They believed companions to be heretic because they forsook their allegiance to Ali and condemn Ali for ceasing to fight them. They believed in the returning of the dead before the Day of Resurrection and that Satan is right in preferring fire to clay.
8.
Muhammadiyyah / Mughairiyah
Followers of Muhammad ibn-'Abdullah ibn-al-Hassan. They do not believe that Imam Muhammad ibn-'Abdullah died and that he is Imam Ghaib and awaited Mahdi.
9.
Baqiriyah
Followers of Muhammad ibn-'Ali al-Baqir. They believe him to be the Imam Ghaib and expected Mahdi.
10.
Nadisiyah
They believe that those who consider themselves better than anyone else are Kafirs (disbelievers).
11.
Sha'iyah
They believe that the one who has recited La Ilaha Il-Allah (There is none worthy of worship except Allah), whatever she or he does, will never be punished.
12.
Ammaliyah
They believe that faith for one is what he/she sincerely practices.
13.
Ismailiyah
They believe in the continuity of Imammate among the descendants of Ismail ibn-Ja'far.
14.
Musawiyah / Mamturah
They believe Musa ibn-Ja'far to be the Imam Ghaib and expected Mahdi.
15.
Mubarikiyah
They believe in the continuity of Imammate among the descendants of Muhammad ibn-Ismail ibn-Ja'far.
16.
Kathiyah / Ithn 'Ashariya (the Twelvers)
They believe that expected Mahdi will be the twelveth Imam among the descendants of 'Ali ibn-abi-Talib.
17.
Hashamiya / Taraqibiyah
They Predicate a body to Allah and also allege Prophet (pbuh) of disobedience to Allah.
18.
Zarariyah
They believed that Allah did not live nor had any attributes till He created for Himself life and His attributes.
19.
Younasiyah
Followers of Younas ibn-'Abd-al-Rahman al-Kummi. They believe that Allah is borne by bearers of His Throne, though He is stronger than they.
20.
Shaitaniyah / Shireekiyah
They believed in the view that deeds of servants of Allah are substances; and a servant of Allah can really produce a substance.
21.
Azraqiah
Followers of Nafi ibn-al-Azraq. They do not believe in the good dreams and vision and claim that all forms of revelation has ended.
22.
Najadat
Followers of Najdah ibn-'Amir al-Hanafi. They abolished the punishment for drinking wine also they believed that sinners of this sect would not be treated in hellfire but some other place before allowed in paradise.
23.
Sufriyah
Followers of Ziyad ibn-al-Asfar. They believed that sinners are in fact polytheists.
24.
Ajaridah
Followers of Abd-al-Karim ibn-Ajrad. They believed that a child should be called to Islam after it has attained maturity. Also they believed booty of war to be unlawful till the owner is killed.
25.
Khazimiyah
They believe Allah loves men of all faiths even if one has been disbeliever most of his life.
26.
Shuaibiyah / Hujjatiyah
They believe that what Allah desires does happen no matter what and what does not happen it means Allah desires it not.
27.
Khalafiyah
Followers of Khalaf. They do not believe in fighting except under the leadership of an Imam.
28.
Ma'lumiyah / Majhuliyah
They believed that whoever did not recognize Allah by all His names was ignorant of Him and anyone ignorant of Him was a disbeliever.
29.
Saltiyah
Followers of Salt ibn-Uthman. They believed in the conversion of adults only and if father has converted to Islam children were considered disbeliever till they reach maturity.
30.
Hamziyah
Followers of Hamza ibn-Akrak. They believe that children of polythiests are condemned to hell.
31.
Tha'libiyah
Followers of Tha'labah ibn-Mashkan. They believe that parents remain guardian over their children of any age until children make it clear to parents that they are turning away from truth.
32.
Ma'badiyah
They did not believe in taking or giving alms from or to slaves.
33.
Akhnasiyah
They do not believe in waging a war except in defense or when the opponent is known personally.
34.
Shaibaniyah / Mashbiyah
Followers of Shaiban ibn-Salamah al-Khariji. They believe Allah resembles His creatures.
Oldrotorhead
10-06-2013, 18:30
Page 2
35.
Rashidiyah
They believe that land watered by springs, canals or flowing rivers should pay half the Zakat (Tithe), while land watered by rain only should pay the full Zakat.
36.
Mukarramiyah / Tehmiyah
Followers of abu-Mukarram. They believe that ignorance constitutes as disbelief. Also that Allah enmity or friendship depends upon the state of a persons belief at his death.
37.
Ibadiyah / Af'aliyah
Consider Abdullah ibn-Ibad as their Imam. They believe in doing good deeds without the intention of pleasing Allah.
38.
Hafsiyah
Consider Hafs ibn-abi-l-Mikdam as their Imam. They believe that only knowing Allah frees one from polytheism
39.
Harithiya
Followers of Harith ibn-Mazid al-Ibadi. They believe that the ability precedes the deeds.
40.
Ashab Ta'ah
They believe that Allah can send a prophet without giving him any sign to prove his prophecy.
41.
Shabibiyah / Salihiyah
Followers of Shabib ibn-Yazid al-Shaibani. They believe in the Imamate of a woman named Ghazalah.
42.
Wasiliyah
Followers of Wasil ibn-'Ata al-Ghazza. They believe that those who commit major sins will be punished in hell but still remain believers.
43.
'Amriyah
Followers of 'Amr ibn-Ubaid ibn-Bab. They reject the legal testimony of people from supporters of either side of the battle of Camel.
44.
Hudhailiyah / Faniya
Followers of abu-al-Hudhail Muhammad ibn-al-Hudhail. They believe that both Hell and Paradise will perish and that preordination of Allah can cease, at which time Allah will no longer be omnipotent.
45.
Nazzamiyah
Followers of abu-Ishaq Ibrahim ibn-Saiyar. They do not believe in the miraculous nature of the Holy Quran nor do they believe the miracles of Holy Prophet (pbuh) like splitting the moon.
46.
Mu'ammariyah
They Believe that Allah neither creates life nor death but it is an act of the nature of living body.
47.
Bashriyah
Followers of Bashr ibn-al-Mu'tamir. They believe that Allah may forgive a man his sins and may change His mind about this forgiveness and punish him if he is disobedient again.
48.
Hishamiyah
Followers of Hisham ibn-'Amr al-Futi. They believe that if a Muslim community come to consensus it need an Imam and if it rebels and kills its Imam, no one should be chosen an Imam during a rebellion.
49.
Murdariyah
Followers of Isa ibn-Sabih. They believe that staying in close communication with the Sultan (ruler) makes one unbeliever.
50.
Ja'friyah
Followers of Ja'far ibn-Harb and Ja'far ibn-Mubashshir. They believe that drinking raw wine is not punishable and that punishment of hell could be inferred by a mental process.
51.
Iskafiyah
Followers of Muhammad ibn-Abdallah al-Iskafi. They believe that Allah has power to oppress children and madmen but not those who have their full senses.
52.
Thamamiyah
Followers of Thamamah ibn-Ashras al-Numairi. They believe that he whom Allah does not compel to know Him, is not compelled to know and is classed with animals who are not responsible.
53.
Jahiziayh
Followers of 'Amr ibn-Bahr al-Jahiz. They believe that Allah is able to create a thing but unable to annihilate it.
54.
Shahhamiyah / Sifatiyah
Followers of abu-Yaqub al-Shahham. They everything determined is determined by two determiners, one the Creator and the other acquirer.
55.
Khaiyatiyah / Makhluqiyah
Followers of abu-al-Husain al-Khaiyat. They believe that everything non-existant is a body before it appears, like man before it is born is a body in non-existance. Also that every attribute becomes existant when it makes its appearance.
56.
Ka'biyah
Followers of abu-Qasim Abdullah ibn-Ahmad ibn-Mahmud al-Banahi known as al-Ka'bi. They believe that Allah does not see Himself nor anyone else except in the sense that He knows Himself and others.
57.
Jubbaiyah
Followers of abu-'Ali al-Jubbai. They believe that Allah obeys His servants when He fulfill their wish
58.
Bahshamiyah
Followers of abu-Hashim. They believe that one who desires to do a bad deed, though may not do it, commits infidelity and deserves punishment.
59.
Ibriyah.
They believe that Holy Prophet (pbuh) was a wise man but not a prophet.
60.
Muhkamiyah
They believe that God has no control over His creations.
61.
Qabariyya
They do not believe in the punishment of grave.
62.
Hujjatiya
They do not believe in the punishment for deeds on the grounds that because everything is determined so whatever one does s/he is not responsible for it.
63.
Fikriyya
They believe that doing Dhikr and Fikr (Remembering and thinking about Allah) is better than worship.
64.
'Aliviyah / Ajariyah
They believe that Hadhrat Ali share prophethood with Muhammad (pbuh).
65.
Tanasikhiya
They believe in the re-incarnation of soul.
66.
Raji'yah
They believe that Hadhrat Ali ibn-abi-Talib will return to this world.
67.
Ahadiyah
They believe in the Fardh (obligations) in faith but deny the sunnah.
68.
Radeediyah
They believe that this world will live forever.
69.
Satbiriyah
They do not believe in the acceptance of repentance.
70.
Lafziyah
They believe that Quran is not the word of God but only its meaning and essence is the word of God. Words of Quran are just the words of narrator.
71.
Ashariyah
The believe that Qiyas (taking a guess) is wrong and amounts to disbelief.
72.
Bada'iyah
They believe that obedience to Ameer is obligatory no matter what he commands.
Lol.
They have almost as many sects as Christianity.
Some of those still purport to be mainstream Sunni but not all.
If reform doesn't come from a Sunni it doesn't come at all.
The Sufi are another group that is as much mystic as Islam and they pretty much get along with most other religions.
I wouldn’t be so sure of that. Although they are hailed by the west as peaceful mystics who believe jihad is a spiritual quest, they all aren’t “peace-loving, meditative seekers of the divine.” One should study the Sufi Jihadi squadrons of Shaykh Abd al-Qadir al-Gilani, or the writings of Al-Ghazali…
Al—Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim, and follower of the Shafi'i school of Islamic jurisprudence, wrote this about jihad war and the treatment of the vanquished non—Muslim dhimmi peoples, in the Wadjiz: [4]
[O]ne must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year...one may use a catapult against them [non—Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them...If a person of the Ahl� al—Kitab [People of The Book — primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked...One may cut down their trees...One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide...they may steal as much food as they need...
[T]he dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle...Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [poll tax on non—Muslims]...on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [the dhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]... They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells...their houses may not be higher than the Muslim's, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle [—work] is of wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear [an identifying] patch [on their clothing], even women, and even in the [public] baths...[dhimmis] must hold their tongue...
...the Caliph of Baghdad, al—Muqtadi [1075—1094], had given power to his vizier, Abu Shuja... [who] imposed that each male Jew should wear a yellow badge on his headgear. This was one distinctive sign on the head and the other was on the neck— a piece of lead of the weight of a silver dinar hanging round the neck of every Jew and inscribed with the word dhimmi to signify that the Jew had to pay poll—tax. Jews also had to wear girdles round their wastes. Abu Shuja further imposed two signs on Jewish women. They had to wear a black and a red shoe, and each woman had to have a small brass bell on her neck or shoe, which would tinkle and thus announce the separation of Jewish from Gentile [Muslim] women. He assigned cruel Muslim men to spy upon Jewish women, in order to oppress them with all kinds of curses, humiliation, and spite. The Gentile population used to mock all the Jews, and the mob and their children used to beat up the Jews in all the streets of Baghdad...When a Jew died, who had not paid up the poll—tax [jizya] to the full and was in debt for a small or large amount, the Gentiles did not permit burial until the poll—tax was paid. If the deceased left nothing of value, the Gentiles demanded that other Jews should, with their own money, meet the debt owed by the deceased in poll—tax; otherwise they [threatened] they would burn the body.
> http://www.americanthinker.com/printpage/?url=http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/05/sufi_jihad.html
So we have 1 female out of 1.6 billion people, if that's not success I do not know what is. I apologize for the sarcasim, however, using this one girl as an example of what might be is on the same level as discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Illitiacy in the muslim world is high....very high, so we should get all of them literate first right? No wait, let's build the schools needed to educate them so they can read. Wait a minute, we need to build them roads so they can get to the schools. Oh, before that let's build some water treatment plants so they have clean water which will make them healthy enough to go to school to learn to read so that then we can tell them that the Koran is wrong and they should respect women as the westerners do. Forgive my skepticisim, after 10 years and 14 rotations to Iraq and Afghanistan I believe I have seen every conceivable idea on how we get them to stop killing every damn thing that is not a muslim (my mistake, we need to include killing muslims) and nothing I have witnessed has even remotely worked. I'm all for undermining islam, however, trying to do that with their females, in my opinion, ain't gonna happen unless we're talking about sterilizing. Please forgive the spelling mistakes.
FlagDayNCO
10-07-2013, 11:48
Ha! Sterilization. 5.56 is sterile leaving the barrel, isn't it?
Employ all the tactics.
Trapper John
10-07-2013, 12:06
So we have 1 female out of 1.6 billion people, if that's not success I do not know what is. I apologize for the sarcasim, however, using this one girl as an example of what might be is on the same level as discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Illitiacy in the muslim world is high....very high, so we should get all of them literate first right? No wait, let's build the schools needed to educate them so they can read. Wait a minute, we need to build them roads so they can get to the schools. Oh, before that let's build some water treatment plants so they have clean water which will make them healthy enough to go to school to learn to read so that then we can tell them that the Koran is wrong and they should respect women as the westerners do. Forgive my skepticisim, after 10 years and 14 rotations to Iraq and Afghanistan I believe I have seen every conceivable idea on how we get them to stop killing every damn thing that is not a muslim (my mistake, we need to include killing muslims) and nothing I have witnessed has even remotely worked. I'm all for undermining islam, however, trying to do that with their females, in my opinion, ain't gonna happen unless we're talking about sterilizing. Please forgive the spelling mistakes.
Ahh, come on - don't be bashful Bro- tell us what you really think. :D
MR2, I think we just found our first volunteer for the dark side of the rejuvenated Phoenix Program.;)
Sometimes....violence is the only answer.
Sometimes....violence is the only answer.
Love the avatar Hacksaw, it reminds me of Charles “the hammer” Martel… :cool:
If you know what's good for you, do not wake Holger up! :D
Thanks T-Rock, you're the second person to get it.
Trapper John
10-09-2013, 05:18
Thanks T-Rock, you're the second person to get it.
Oh we got it alright - just didn't want to wake Holger only to find we're on his bad side. :eek:
Love the avatar Hacksaw.
I agree, sometimes extreme violence and speed of action is the appropriate answer. But, being a UW/FID guy, I wonder if we are approaching this problem the right way. DA isn't the answer to everything either ya know.;)
To et al
Oh we got it alright
;)
I agree, sometimes extreme violence and speed of action is the appropriate answer. But, being a UW/FID guy, I wonder if we are approaching this problem the right way. DA isn't the answer to everything either ya know.;)
It seems today everything looks like a nail... :mad:
As SF guys we should not do unilateral DA (only exception being the CIF). The most relevant work I've ever done is helping muslims kill other muslims. Had we done more of that the last 12 years Afghanistan would be a historical footnote at this point.
As SF guys we should not do unilateral DA (only exception being the CIF). The most relevant work I've ever done is helping muslims kill other muslims. Had we done more of that the last 12 years Afghanistan would be a historical footnote at this point.
:lifter
Trapper John
10-10-2013, 10:10
As SF guys we should not do unilateral DA (only exception being the CIF). The most relevant work I've ever done is helping muslims kill other muslims. Had we done more of that the last 12 years Afghanistan would be a historical footnote at this point.
And that's a truth! :lifter
I mentioned the Ahmadiyah in an earlier post. The following is an article about a recent attack on an Ahmadiyah mosque in Indonesia.
FPI Forces Ahmadiyah Mosque to Close in West Java
Hard-line Islamists shuttered an Ahmadiyah mosque after reportedly threatening to burn it down on Sunday in the latest example of religious intolerance to plague West Java.
The Islamic Defenders Front (FPI) sealed a mosque in Sukatali village, in Sumedang, earlier this week after accusing the small congregation of breaking a controversial decree barring Ahmadiyah Muslims from proselytizing their religion. The decree, signed in 2008 by the Ministry of Home Affairs, the Ministry of Religious Affairs and the Attorney General’s Office, with the support of the West Java governor’s office, has long been used as an excuse to oppress the minority religion...
...The FPI, and affiliate organizations, have been behind several mosque and church closures in West Java, including the destruction of a Batak protestant church in Taman Sari, Bekasi district. That church was tore down by district officials before a crowd of cheering FPI members.
In other incidents, like the attack on an Ahmadiyah mosque in Tasikmalaya, the FPI reportedly destroyed the building themselves.
The latest incident, in Sumedang, raised concern that the FPI’s influence was spreading to the northern parts of the province.
“Cases like this in West Java in the past happened in the southern part, like in Cianjur and Sukabumi, but rarely in the north,” Firdaus said. “But then it happened in Kuningan, in central West Java, and now it is moving north to areas that are not really very religious.
“The hard-line group is extending its movement...”
...Indonesia’s beleaguered Ahmadiyah community approached the government in the mid-2000s to ask for help. The government’s response, a 2008 decree that protects the Ahmadiyah’s right to exist, was then used to support crackdowns across West Java.
The decree allows Ahmadiyah to practice their religion, but opens the group up to penalties if they are accused of spreading their beliefs to mainstream Muslims.
“[The] joint ministerial decree has no legitimate place in our legal system,” said Bonar Tigor Naipospos, deputy chairman of Setara Institute. “Moreover the decree is vague and can result in different interpretations.”
JAI called the decree little more than a government effort to dissolve the religion.
“The government just want to force their opinion and a one-side solution,” Firdaus said. “They’re not ready to provide a real solution. They only want to dissolve Ahmadiyah with the decree.”
That notion, a complete ban on Ahmadiyah Muslims, would likely gain support in the halls of the West Java Governor’s Mansion. West Java Governor Ahmad Heryawan once said problems with the Ahmadiyah would stop being a problem once the belief disappeared.
The Setara Institute placed the blame on government inaction.
“It’s the obligation of the government to protect the rights of its citizens and guarantee their freedom to worship,” Bonar said.
A brief timeline of attacks on Ahmadiyah in West Java and Banten
Oct. 25, 2002: The At-Taqwa and Al-Hidayah mosques in Kuningan, West Java, are destroyed by a mob.
2005: A mob attacks an Ahmadiyah village in Neglasari, Cianjur, West Java, damaging three mosques and several homes.
Aug. 19, 2005: The Istiqomah mosque in Sedasari village. Majalengka, West Java, is sealed by the local government following an edict from the from Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI) banning the Ahmadiyah.
2008: The joint ministerial decree banning Ahmadiyah from spreading their beliefs is signed.
2008: The Al Furqon mosque and the Ahmadiyah Islamic school are set ablaze in Parakan Salak, Sukabumi, West Java.
July 27, 2010: The Kuningan Public Order Agency (Satpol PP) seal one mosque and several smaller houses of worship in an anti-Ahmadiyah crackdown.
Oct. 10, 2010: An Ahamdiyah mosque and boarding school are torched by local residents in Cisalada, Bogor, West Java.
December 2010: Members of a local Islamic boarding school rampage through an Ahmadiyah community, destroying a mosque in Warnasari village, Sukabumi.
Feb. 6, 2011: Three Ahamdiyah members were brutally killed in a mob attack in Cikeusik, Banten, by men shouting “God is great” and “Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill Ahmadiyah!” Video of the attack was posted to YouTube, sparking international condemnation and calls for harsh penalties for those involved.
April 2011: Government officials seal the Al-Mubarok mosque in Sindang Barang, Bogor.
July 2011: The Serang District Court sentences 12 people to six months in jail for igniting a conflict that resulted in someone’s death over their roles in the Cikeusik killings. The verdict was called a failure of Indonesia by Ahmadiyah members.
August 2011: Deden Sujana, an Ahmadiyah member from Cikeusik, is jailed for six months for refusing a police order to leave his home the mob killings.
Feb. 2012: Nurhidayah mosque, in Cipeuyeum village, Cianjur, West Java, is destroyed by local residents.
April 2012: Baitul Rahim mosque in Cipakat village, Tasikmalaya, is sealed by local residents.
April 2012: A mob ransack an Ahmadiyah mosque in Singaparna, West Java, hurling Molotov cocktails at the building.
March 2013: The Bekasi Satpol PP seals the Al-Misbah mosque in Pondok Gede, Bekasi, West Java, locking several Ahamdiyah members inside.
July 2013: An-Nasir mosque, in Neglasari, is shuttered by local ulema.
Link (http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/news/fpi-forces-ahmadiyah-mosque-to-close-in-west-java/)
Link: http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2013/10/16/Bar-council-disputes-allah-decision.aspx
Please take note, the word 'allah' has now officially been copyrighted by muslims in Malaysia...so nobody who is not a muslim is allowed to use the word, say the word or even 'think' the word without insulting a muslim. Any efforts to discuss, debate the issue will be met by acts of stupidity (aka violent threats, protests) and comments from leading muslim politicians in the ruling political party such as "if you don't like the ruling, go back to china/india..."
Retardness know's no boundaries....esp. when it comes to the uneducated.
Muslims..claiming to be moderate but acting like the idiots they can be....as per normal.
Roguish Lawyer
10-09-2024, 11:25
:munchin
tom kelly
10-11-2024, 13:12
Sometimes....violence is the only answer.
Absolutely - Along with Speed, Suprise, and an OVERWHELMING use of deadly force... Teach them a lesson.
Islamists, the Muslim world, has always understood violence as it is a central part of Islam. They understand when it is used against them..
When you only talk, they sense weakness.
Culturally they've hardly moved on from the 6th century.
Islamists, the Muslim world, has always understood violence as it is a central part of Islam. They understand when it is used against them..
When you only talk, they sense weakness.
Culturally they've hardly moved on from the 6th century.
Their only real leap forward was the acquisition of the Kalishnikov, the Thurya, and the HiLux
...otherwise, most of these assholes are still living in the late 600's