View Full Version : CA/Psypoppers Leaving SOCOM
NousDefionsDoc
03-25-2006, 18:17
I can't get the article because I don't subscribe. What do you guys think? I'm going to go with "about time".
22 March Jane's Defence Weekly - Civil Affairs, Psyops Shift Away From SOCOM
The majority of US civil affairs and psychological operations (psyops) forces are to be shifted from US Special Operations Command (SOCOM) to the conventional US Army, senior military officials have said...
Under the new structure, civil affairs and psyops units will be associated with active-duty brigade combat teams, with which they will train and deploy consistently...
About 80 per cent of the army's total civil affairs and psyops forces are reserves, totalling roughly 9,000 soldiers. The army is also expanding its active-duty civil affairs forces, converting its one battalion into a brigade and increasing the size of the one active psyops group.
The shift dovetails with another recent initiative from Rumsfeld's office, to put stability and support operations on an equal footing with combat operations.
One part of that plan, the creation of a civilian corps that can deploy with US military forces and help co-ordinate post-war civilian reconstruction efforts, is also progressing. The US State Department has recruited 400 officials who have volunteered to be part of the Active Response Corps, said Marcia Wong, the department's acting co-ordinator for reconstruction and stabilisation. The corps could potentially deploy with military forces to help co-ordinate stabilisation and reconstruction after a conflict...
GreenSalsa
03-25-2006, 18:24
I'm going to go with "about time".
Amen!
I spent about 3 ˝ years in the 96th Civil Affairs Battalion. I fully support having “Special Operations Capable” type of Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations forces supporting SOF operations world wide.
I have NEVER understood why the remainder and the bulk of the CAPOC forces were in USASOC. They are composed of a WIDE variety of individuals and there is absolutely no guarantee of any type of consistency. Some units are VERY good due to a bunch of ex-11Bs or even 18 series “recruiting” others to join their unit; others….
Case in point; My last trip to Afghanistan at one of the Firebases had a PSYOP unit that was so badly prepared for combat operations we actually restricted them to the Firebase to protect them and others in the area. The “straw that broke the camels back” was when during a patrol with them (I was in Command and in the lead truck, they were in the rear) I had “spotty” communication with them the entire patrol. This was really irritating me because we were only a convoy of 10-12 vehicles all running with vehicle mounted FM radios and I consistently had problems communicating with them. At the conclusion of the patrol I had all the trucks line up to “solve” the problem, and as I walked up to the PSYOP vehicle I noticed that EVERY SINGLE GUY IN THAT TRUCK WAS LISTENING TO IPOD MUSIC WITH HEAD SET ON. Needles to say I lost my mind and confined them to the firebase the duration of the rotation.
You want to know what their “excuse” was?
“No-one told us we weren’t supposed to listen to music on patrol”.
NousDefionsDoc
03-25-2006, 18:43
Army Reserve May Take Over Civil Affairs
InsideDefense.com NewsStand | Jen DiMascio | March 02, 2006
As the Army and the Pentagon are considering a plan to transfer control of civil affairs and psychological operations soldiers from U.S. Special Operations Command to the Army Reserve, the chief of the inactive-duty force is proposing a new way to train them.
Lt. Gen. James Helmly was in the spotlight in early 2005, when he called attention to the level of strain facing the Reserve because of deployments in Iraq -- one that his volunteer force still faces, he told Inside the Army in a Feb. 17 interview at the Association of the U.S. Army conference here.
Calling attention to that problem is one of the ways Helmly said he is working to update Defense Department policies.
Another way is working to bring soldiers in civil affairs and psychological operations who report to SOCOM back into the Reserve, which funds them.
Civil affairs and psychological operations lend themselves to the Reserve, an inactive-duty force, Helmly said. “It relies on civilian acquired skills -- not military unique skills. It's civilian skills practiced in a military environment, and so it is a capability [that] needs to be stronger for this century in an age of stability and reconstruction operations than perhaps the last century,” he said.
http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,89641,00.html
The Reaper
03-25-2006, 18:44
Net effect is to take slots, funding, responsibility, and lots of 18 positions from SWCS, CAPOC, USASOC, and SOCOM.
We will see what it brings.
TR
NousDefionsDoc
03-25-2006, 18:44
Might not be a bad idea to put the entire military component of the "active Response Corps" in the reserves. I wonder if that is what they are planning...
PSYOP Rob
03-25-2006, 18:45
4th POG and 96th CA get out from under USACAPOC and we return to a semblance of what we had under 1st SOCOM. The reserve guys get funded by FORSCOM and the Army Reserve and hopefully develop a more streamlined relationship with the units they are wartraced to. Sounds good to me.
The Reaper
03-25-2006, 19:03
4th POG and 96th CA get out from under USACAPOC and we return to a semblance of what we had under 1st SOCOM. The reserve guys get funded by FORSCOM and the Army Reserve and hopefully develop a more streamlined relationship with the units they are wartraced to. Sounds good to me.
Well, this would mean that out of SF, Rangers, CA, PSYOP, SOA, SOSCOM, and the assorted other units, only SF would have a command of their own. Would the others be just lumped together under USASOC? At one time, USASFC, which was robbed by USASOC of all staff but the G-3 and token staff sections, had to take care of CA, PSYOP, and SOSCOM requirements as well, since the remainder were part of the USASOIC and subsequently, the ACE.
Wonder who would manage the control of these disparate units?
TR
Well, this would mean that out of SF, Rangers, CA, PSYOP, SOA, SOSCOM, and the assorted other units, only SF would have a command of their own. Would the others be just lumped together under USASOC? At one time, USASFC, which was robbed by USASOC of all staff but the G-3 and token staff sections, had to take care of CA, PSYOP, and SOSCOM requirements as well, since the remainder were part of the USASOIC and subsequently, the ACE.
Wonder who would manage the control of these disparate units?
TR
For the time being 4th Group and 96th CA (soon to be a Brigade) will be set up like the rest of 0-6 commanded units (TF/75th), falling directly under USASOC. Now I can't see USASOC given up that MG billet for too long as this kinda makes having a LG only in charge of 1 MG (not including SWCS) look kinda fishy. Some one might get the idea that USASOC doesn't need to be so star heavy. But we'll see what the future holds.
As far as the RC forces going to support Mother Army I feel this is where they are used and needed the most. I'm sure the USSOCOM Commander has been wondering why all his training and equipment dollars have been going to support elements outside of his command.
War tracing AC units can work wonders when in comes down to the amount and type of training you are able to conduct. Not to mention equipment interoperability etc.... 4th POG and 75th have done this for about 6 years now with good success and continue to renew their MOA. I know 96th used to send the same guys along as well (QP's), but I don't know if this was due to any kind of official agreement.
The part of this change that is going to pose problems (and already is) is that SWCS retains proponency and is responsible for training ALL CA/PSYOP forces. They are already whining about course lengths etc....
Green Salsa, I sincerely hope that you beat the living shit out of those dirt bags and relayed your sentiments up the chain. There are those of us that do give a shit and take our mission very seriously.
Regards,
John
NousDefionsDoc
03-25-2006, 19:49
So G Salsa,
Do IPODS explode when you shoot them...:munchin
Warrior-Mentor
03-26-2006, 14:50
So G Salsa,
Do IPODS explode when you shoot them...:munchin
That would fix the retards...
That would fix the retards...
Nah... I expect they would have just given you that WTF look. I think I would have pulled them aside as soon as they arrived and explained in detail what my expectations of them were. Filled them in on SOP's, TTP's , etc..... Basic reception and integration.
GreenSalsa
03-26-2006, 18:28
The problem we face is after 3, 4 or 5 rotations and having served with only solid professionals we (or if this is too broad and encompassing, I) face is to go back to basics with absolutely everyone.
Just to know what the “rest of the story” was, I took them (and any other inhabitant of the firebase) on a 10 “train up” cycle covering everything from zeroing weapons to decompressing a chest, to operating all of the radios. It clearly “reset” the tone we had with everyone there. In the end 10 days can not make up for a lack of qualified and serious professionals, but it gave us a level of comfort to take selected personnel out (under supervision of a team guy).
The sad part about this is they started to think I had it out for them, in all actuality it was the opposite. In an unconventional warfare environment CA / PSOYPs are invaluable tools in my “kit bag”. That is why I do support qualified “Special Operations Capable” CAPOC forces but, for the vast majority of CAPOC forces, they can (IMHO) best serve “mother army” where there is adequate supervision.
The problem we face is after 3, 4 or 5 rotations and having served with only solid professionals we (or if this is too broad and encompassing, I) face is to go back to basics with absolutely everyone.
Just to know what the “rest of the story” was, I took them (and any other inhabitant of the firebase) on a 10 “train up” cycle covering everything from zeroing weapons to decompressing a chest, to operating all of the radios. It clearly “reset” the tone we had with everyone there. In the end 10 days can not make up for a lack of qualified and serious professionals, but it gave us a level of comfort to take selected personnel out (under supervision of a team guy).
The sad part about this is they started to think I had it out for them, in all actuality it was the opposite. In an unconventional warfare environment CA / PSOYPs are invaluable tools in my “kit bag”. That is why I do support qualified “Special Operations Capable” CAPOC forces but, for the vast majority of CAPOC forces, they can (IMHO) best serve “mother army” where there is adequate supervision.
I agree with you GS and have no doubt that you afforded those jokers every opportunity to get in line. Them thinking you had it out for them was most likely due to them never having someone solid over them holding their feet to the fire.
V/R
John
dbvelazquez
03-28-2006, 07:34
LT. GEN Clevland is in command of SOCOM at Homestead Air Base in Homesyead Fl. 478th CA Resrve unit is also down there and are lacking in the tactical dept, the tab on their shoulder states AIRBORNE but the unit is not airborne qualified or sloted as such.
IMO CA should be represented in both SOCOM and Big Army. Agree w/96th remaining as is, the rest need to go. Also a few quick off the top of my head recommendations:
Eliminate the 38A MOS, its a complete waste of resources to train someone as a "Civil Affairs Specialist."
Teams needs to be comprised of SME like: engineers, medics, MPs, PAOs...etc. Also recommend all CA slots should be E5(p) positions with atleast 4-5 years TIS and MOS.
Invest significant dollars in language and cultural training. Everyone serving on a CA team needs formal language and cultural training prior to assignment to a team and deployment. My experience only a few actually had formal, I mean school, language and almost none had cultural. Some folks believe language training equates cultural training. Very big mistake!
The CA units should not be supporting units, they need to support CINCs. Similar to SF area of responsbilites. Previously CA units were assigned to support a division, irregardless of the divisions AO. This defeats the principle purpose and strength of CA.
Just my 2 cents, a 38A "Honor Graduate" class 7/95, Camp Parks, CA.
The Reaper
03-28-2006, 09:07
LT. GEN Clevland is in command of SOCOM at Homestead Air Base in Homesyead Fl. 478th CA Resrve unit is also down there and are lacking in the tactical dept, the tab on their shoulder states AIRBORNE but the unit is not airborne qualified or sloted as such.
SOCOM is not at Homestead, they are at MacDill. SOCSOUTH is at Homestead.
Charlie Cleveland is not an LTG, he is a BG.
Please do some reading here and introduce yourself in the proper place before posting elsewhere.
TR
dbvelazquez
03-28-2006, 14:31
IMO CA should be represented in both SOCOM and Big Army. Agree w/96th remaining as is, the rest need to go. Also a few quick off the top of my head recommendations:
Eliminate the 38A MOS, its a complete waste of resources to train someone as a "Civil Affairs Specialist."
Teams needs to be comprised of SME like: engineers, medics, MPs, PAOs...etc. Also recommend all CA slots should be E5(p) positions with atleast 4-5 years TIS and MOS.
Invest significant dollars in language and cultural training. Everyone serving on a CA team needs formal language and cultural training prior to assignment to a team and deployment. My experience only a few actually had formal, I mean school, language and almost none had cultural. Some folks believe language training equates cultural training. Very big mistake!
The CA units should not be supporting units, they need to support CINCs. Similar to SF area of responsbilites. Previously CA units were assigned to support a division, irregardless of the divisions AO. This defeats the principle purpose and strength of CA.
Just my 2 cents, a 38A "Honor Graduate" class 7/95, Camp Parks, CA.
I agree it is a complete waste of time.
Warrior-Mentor
03-28-2006, 17:23
Nah... I expect they would have just given you that WTF look. I think I would have pulled them aside as soon as they arrived and explained in detail what my expectations of them were. Filled them in on SOP's, TTP's , etc..... Basic reception and integration.
Would you explain they need to wipe after defecating?
Sometimes common sense isn't common....being alert in enemy territory would be something I would expect even the most junior E-1 to understand...I suppose I assume too much.
Then again, that's why we rehearse...
Then again, that's why we rehearse...
Sir I'm not trying to be too argumentative ;) .
We can call Soldiers retards and get PO'd , but it doesn't solve the problem at hand..... Accomplishing the mission.
I've been on both ends of the stick as far as having Soldiers attached to my element and being the guy attached to a supported unit. Honestly I never assume a new/unknown Soldier is going to do the right thing or that they have all of the proper training/knowledge/field craft etc. I have never felt insulted by having been sat down by a supported unit and been given the "here is how we do business" talk. Clear communication of expectations and intent are things I always have and will continue to welcome. Your quote above, in my mind, is the key to mitigating most of the problems one might run into, at least given the limited contact you might have with the attachments.
I won't make up excuses for the actions of those Soldiers as there is no excuse... Piss poor training, and the lack of quality leadership at their unit, obviously has bred a lack of SA as well as a general indifference to their safety and to the safety of those around them. Turds in the mixed-drink punch bowel that is SOF.
For the time being 4th Group and 96th CA (soon to be a Brigade) will be set up like the rest of 0-6 commanded units (TF/75th), falling directly under USASOC.
As far as the RC forces going to support Mother Army I feel this is where they are used and needed the most. I'm sure the USSOCOM Commander has been wondering why all his training and equipment dollars have been going to support elements outside of his command.
War tracing AC units can work wonders when in comes down to the amount and type of training you are able to conduct. Not to mention equipment interoperability etc.... 4th POG and 75th have done this for about 6 years now with good success and continue to renew their MOA. I know 96th used to send the same guys along as well (QP's), but I don't know if this was due to any kind of official agreement.
The part of this change that is going to pose problems (and already is) is that SWCS retains proponency and is responsible for training ALL CA/PSYOP forces. They are already whining about course lengths etc....
Yes all but one each CA and PSYOP are being transferred to US Army Reserve Command (USARC). There will be one active CA Brigade (might call it a Group) and one active PSYOP Group under USASOC. The two active Brigades/Groups (1 each CA and PSYOP) will be under USASOC with a focus on supporting SOF and contingency ops (much like now). The RC under USARC will focus on support Big Army missions and units.
CA and PSYOP are growing on both the AC and RC side just like USASFC and SWC are under PDM 3. Lots of fun all around for everyone.
USASOC (SWCS) remains the proponent for CA and PSYOP. Doesn’t change a lot except when we go for funding, its all in the P-Dollars.
RELEASE NUMBER: 060523-01
DATE POSTED: MAY 23, 2006
USACAPOC Realigns from USASOC to USARC
U.S. Army Special Operations Command
FORT BRAGG, N.C. (USASOC News Service, May 23, 2006) - A ceremony here today marked the transfer of operational command and control of the U.S. Army Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations Command from U.S. Army Special Operations Command to the U.S. Army Reserve Command.
“Today’s transfer of command is about recognizing the critical civil affairs and psychological operations mission support requirements for both special operations and conventional operations,” said Lt. Gen. Robert W. Wagner, USASOC commanding general and co-host of the ceremony.
“I will miss not having CAPOC as a part of Army Special Operations Command, nevertheless, the transformation is the right thing to do and I fully support it. The focus is not on the transfer, it is on the importance of the mission.”
This move will enable the Army to maximize the effectiveness of these forces by reducing the number of coordinating headquarters, enabling closer and more direct care for the Army Reserve Soldiers and family members assigned to these units.
Referring to the Army Song “The Army Goes Rolling Along,” Lt. Gen. James R. Helmly, commander of U.S. Army Reserve Command, stressed the importance of modernization. “I think we have to streamline and flatten our command and control structure to push more resources into the operational pool.”
The realignment impacts 9,000 Army Reserve Soldiers located in 25 states. The Army Reserve major subordinate units include the 350th, 351st, 352nd, and 353rd Civil Affairs Commands, each with subordinate brigades and battalions, and the 2nd and 7th Psychological Operations Groups, each with four battalions and subordinate companies.
“We are proud of our heritage, we’re proud of our roots in specialized military operations, and we are especially proud to have been apart of SOCOM and Army Special Operations at this time in our country’s history,” said Maj. Gen. Herbert L. “Buz” Altshuler, commanding general, USACAPOC.
Wagner and Altshuler presented the Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations Command with the Army Superior Unit Award by placing a streamer on the command’s flag.
Citing the value of CAPOC’s contributions, Wagner explained that the Army Superior Unit Award is very important, but only a token of recognition for the command’s exceptional service from Sept.15, 2004, to Sept. 15, 2005. The award recognized the difficult and challenging mission of supporting civil affairs and psychological operations units, individual soldiers, USASOC and the Regional Combatant Commander, worldwide.
USASOC will retain proponency for civil affairs and psychological operations -- including doctrine, combat development and institutional training. Additionally, the 95th Civil Affairs Brigade (Provisional) and the 4th Psychological Operations Group, which were part of USACAPOC, will remain assigned to USASOC.
On May 16, the Department of Army announced the Department of Defense-directed decision to realign Army Reserve civil affairs and psychological operations forces to USARC.
-usasoc-
zuluzerosix
01-22-2007, 14:22
Amen!
You want to know what their “excuse” was?
“No-one told us we weren’t supposed to listen to music on patrol”.
I am sorry, I had to chime in here. I am shocked. I can't imagine this. That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. IPODS on patrol? So what if the lead vehicle had contact and was trying to report was what going on? Someone doesn't take immediate action because they were listening to music. Then someone is killed because of it. This is an unforgiveable sin. I am flabbergasted! Wow.
I know this is an old post. I just saw it. crazy.