SCAR first impressions...

[M4Guru]

I recently had the opportunity to check out the SCAR-L and SCAR-H. I didn't get to fire it, and only had a few minutes to handle it and look it over before someone with a heavier collar than me got a presentation on the system. I have seen all the internet buzz, but I was wondering if any of you guys had the chance to fire it, or had any favorable/unfavorable impressions of the SCAR system. I didn't like the stock, it is very bulky but does have a good range of adjustment, and provides a decent cheek weld. There was a thread on SOCnet where it was discussed, but I didn't get the impression that anyone had actually messed with it yet at that time. I like the familiarity of having the same manipulation process for both the 7.62 and 5.56 weapons. Any other impressions/ideas/opinions?

[37F5V]

For what its worth I sat in on a group Q&A discussion with the USASOC CSM and got the impression that the USASOC preference is for the HK entry.

[The Reaper]

I have handled both as well, and still prefer the HK 416 and its 7.62 big brother over the jazzed up FNC.

Sorry to see the SASS project go the way it did.

TR

[Chris]

No experience with it, but I am interested - civilian version said to be out in a year. As for the HK416, the video review of the Blackwater shootout... all the reviewers gave it a thumbs up. I was impressed with what I saw in it, clean running and reliable. Last I heard HK wasn't selling to us civilian dogs though. :boohoo Maybe they'll at least sell us uppers in the future...

[M4Guru]

No experience with it, but I am interested - civilian version said to be out in a year. As for the HK416, the video review of the Blackwater shootout... all the reviewers gave it a thumbs up. I was impressed with what I saw in it, clean running and reliable. Last I heard HK wasn't selling to us civilian dogs though. :boohoo Maybe they'll at least sell us uppers in the future...

I'm stashing some re-up money in hope of getting a 416. If not, I won't be heartbroken if I have to get a Leitner-Wise.

[longrange1947]

I wouldn't play wiht a SCAR even if TR gave it to me. :D

Agree on the SASS contract 100% TR, wish it had gone another direction.

[Peregrino]

Can't say I was impressed with it either. Time look at the HK416 or the POF. TR and I spoke with some friends this afternoon who praised the Sig - I'll have to do some research on that one. Anyboby want to start a pool about whether or not the contractor can fill the SASS contract with guns that meet spec? :munchin Peregrino

[Chris]

TR and I spoke with some friends this afternoon who praised the Sig


Which Sig? the 556 or the new .308?

[M4Guru]

I wouldn't play wiht a SCAR even if TR gave it to me. :D

Agree on the SASS contract 100% TR, wish it had gone another direction.


Is there some major flaw that makes the SCAR suck, functionally? I trust you guys more than the powerpoint on how much SOCOM says it's great. I didn't care too much for the ergonomics, but all I've done is hold the thing.

Also, just out of curiosity, what would you like to have seen in the SASS?

[longrange1947]

Anyboby want to start a pool about whether or not the contractor can fill the SASS contract with guns that meet spec? :munchin Peregrino

Hell no, they are already almost a year behind on another contract. :D

SCAR is being pushed by a few but most recognize it as a piece of crap. It is not ready yet, about 80% finished, and it sucks ergonomically. The picatinney rails are add ons becasue they wanted to go to a propreitary bouble prong system that would have made all of the mounts presently used useless. Anyone want to guess on who would do the upgrade on the present mounts? :munchin

There is a small history with the SASS contractor. I'll let others fill that one in.

Would have like to have seen an accurate semi that is not restricted to 25 to 50 rounds a day. A contractor with a good rep for delivering on time. I can't help but think that if the 417 had been part of the test and if there was a hefty penalty for late delivery, someone would not have been involved.

My two cents on that one.

[The Reaper]

Concur on all counts.

The SCAR may be functional, but FN has not designed an ergonomically friendly weapon since the SAW. Probably all of the French fashion designers working there.

Consensus at the user/operator level is that the maker of the SASS will eventually deliver a product that will be very late, less accurate than the prototypes, less reliable, fragile, finnicky, and extremely expensive to own and maintain. Time will tell.

I agree the 417 would have been worth waiting for. At least one unit has a few now, but as I understand it, they were incredibly expensive.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

[uboat509]

For what its worth I sat in on a group Q&A discussion with the USASOC CSM and got the impression that the USASOC preference is for the HK entry.

The USASOC CG and CSM came to my ANCOC class and somebody asked about the SCAR. The CG said that the SCAR was on hold and that they were leaning toward the HK. Unfortunately he has a nasty habbit of talking in circles so I am not sure exactly what the status is.

SFC W

[M4Guru]

Thanks for the info, good to know. I have talked to guys using the 416 currently are pretty happy with it. The less change the better, so the 416 fits the bill in that regard. The learning curve is virtually nonexistant since it's a drop-in replacement for the M4 upper. The 417 looks like a good system as well, I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one for a range session.

[Tuukka]

There is a reason why Reed Knight has one of the biggest (expensive) private machinegun collections in the world.

[Basicload]

I have two 416's assigned to me. I have a 10in and a 14.5 inch. They both run like a dream.

I went to Germany for the HK armorers course reciently and during the 416 class I admitted that it was the first time that I had taken the handguard off of a 416. I had been issued my 10 inch 10 months prior and the gas piston system is under the hand guards.... so I had NEVER cleaned my operating system!:eek:

I did not purposefully ignore it, I guess it was just muscle memory from the M-4A1 and NOT removing the RIS/RAS.

So I had fired thousands of rounds (5-10,000) and deployed to sandy places twice in 10 months and the only stoppages that I ever had on my weapon were magazine related.

Reaper, REF the 417: You are correct that current PROTOTYPES that are hand built are STUPID expensive! Each of these weapons is hand made to ensure the capability of redesigning the production line if any major ergonomic issues arise during developmental testing with the selected users.

Once that gun goes into full production, we are thinking that it will be only 20-30% of the cost of the weapon now.

My last MK-11 from Crane cost me $10,000.00 anyway, so what is really expensive?! :D

Ah Reed Knight and KAC...... we could talk for days, but in the end the conventional boys have no SASS capability currently and despite the XM-110's "issues" I believe that it will eventually work itself out. I hope that soldiers don't have to die to make that happen.

SCAR: I have friends and former co-workers that shot it at the down select for Crane. They said that it was the ONLY game in town (there was no HK submission). I was on the phone daily with them while they were in Cali for the "over the beach BS" and they continued to praise the "gun that was running circles around everything else out here". They could not tell me which gun it was but they said that from the first day that they started shooting that there was a single weapon that stood out above the rest.

I concur with the "manprint" (ergonomics) issues of the SCAR but much like the AK-47.....that bitch will run for days.

Good discussion guys. Thanks for letting me play.

[M4Guru]

I have two 416's assigned to me. I have a 10in and a 14.5 inch. They both run like a dream.

I went to Germany for the HK armorers course reciently and during the 416 class I admitted that it was the first time that I had taken the handguard off of a 416. I had been issued my 10 inch 10 months prior and the gas piston system is under the hand guards.... so I had NEVER cleaned my operating system!:eek:

I did not purposefully ignore it, I guess it was just muscle memory from the M-4A1 and NOT removing the RIS/RAS.

So I had fired thousands of rounds (5-10,000) and deployed to sandy places twice in 10 months and the only stoppages that I ever had on my weapon were magazine related.

Reaper, REF the 417: You are correct that current PROTOTYPES that are hand built are STUPID expensive! Each of these weapons is hand made to ensure the capability of redesigning the production line if any major ergonomic issues arise during developmental testing with the selected users.

Once that gun goes into full production, we are thinking that it will be only 20-30% of the cost of the weapon now.

My last MK-11 from Crane cost me $10,000.00 anyway, so what is really expensive?! :D

Ah Reed Knight and KAC...... we could talk for days, but in the end the conventional boys have no SASS capability currently and despite the XM-110's "issues" I believe that it will eventually work itself out. I hope that soldiers don't have to die to make that happen.

SCAR: I have friends and former co-workers that shot it at the down select for Crane. They said that it was the ONLY game in town (there was no HK submission). I was on the phone daily with them while they were in Cali for the "over the beach BS" and they continued to praise the "gun that was running circles around everything else out here". They could not tell me which gun it was but they said that from the first day that they started shooting that there was a single weapon that stood out above the rest.

I concur with the "manprint" (ergonomics) issues of the SCAR but much like the AK-47.....that bitch will run for days.

Good discussion guys. Thanks for letting me play.

Basic,
Is there a quick way to get the handguards off, with no tools, etc? Or is it a more involved process. I was just wondering if it can easily be done in the field.

[Basicload]

Basic,
Is there a quick way to get the handguards off, with no tools, etc? Or is it a more involved process. I was just wondering if it can easily be done in the field.

Yeah its totally easy. you use any flathead screw driver OR the locking lugs of your bolt (as shown by HK) and un screw the single screw on the handguard. The 417 will have two screws, one above and one below the barrel.

HK promises (and I have seen nothing to refute their claims) that removal and replacement of the handguards will not shift Point of Impact (POI) more than 1 MOA for any laser (or optic if you are a Seal) that is mounted on the handguard. Also since the handguard is a single shroud, there is no interference with your pressure switches on your top mounted laser that might be routed down to your forward hand grip.

So I was pretty much told in Armorer's course that I was a puss for not taking my handguard off for fear of jacking up my PEQ-2A/ATPIAL zero.

I've got a picture of RGR Gordo taking one apart downrange floating around on my work lap top. I'm on vacation now, but I'll find it when I get a chance and see about posting it.

[M4Guru]

Enjoy the break, stay out of trouble in Daytona.

[85diver]

I know im late to this discussion but i thought i would throw in my .02. i was able to shoot both the SCAR-L and SCAR-H when FNH came out to mckellers lodge one morning last year. it was pretty much all SF guys checking the wpns out and we all came up with a few common complaints. The FNH guys had the setup though, they knew what we liked and brought coffee and doughnuts from good ole krispy kreme. gotta love em for that.

one gripe was the charging handle, it comes back as the wpn fires and can be a pain in the butt.

another like stated above was the way the wpn felt in your hands. ergonomically incorrect is how I would put it.

we did like the m203 attachment though, it extends and cants either way making it a little easier to reload. i guess the regular m203 on an m4 works just fine though.

the SCAR-H felt good as it fired I thought. it really didn't have a terrible recoil at all but it still had the uncomfortable feel while holding it.

for any other scuba guys out there, the FNH guys said they tested it in UW ops and said when the divers broke the surface the wpn would fire accurately w/o shotgunning it as u might have to do occasionally with an m4 to clear the gas tube. I would rather just stick to my m4 personally, and when i need to reach out to touch something then i will grab an SR 25. Of course that is just my .02

jr

[MtnGoat]

Hell no, they are already almost a year behind on another contract. :D

SCAR is being pushed by a few but most recognize it as a piece of crap. It is not ready yet, about 80% finished, and it sucks ergonomically. The picatinney rails are add ons becasue they wanted to go to a propreitary bouble prong system that would have made all of the mounts presently used useless. Anyone want to guess on who would do the upgrade on the present mounts? :munchin

There is a small history with the SASS contractor. I'll let others fill that one in.

Would have like to have seen an accurate semi that is not restricted to 25 to 50 rounds a day. A contractor with a good rep for delivering on time. I can't help but think that if the 417 had been part of the test and if there was a hefty penalty for late delivery, someone would not have been involved.

My two cents on that one.
When I was at SWC I saw the way People up at USASOC G-8 and FORMOD; that had no IDEA of what need to be "Pushed" or funded. They made choices over what the Force would be getting and that didn't even have a SF Tab. Regular Army Officers (Nothing Worng with them) Branched out making choices over what would go before Big DA for funding and what would be USASOC Funded. AT times never went down to the two SF Group and SWC to ask "Hey guys what do you think about getting this item funded" I saw it with different 18B & 18B stuff.

Once a Officer gets that Bug put into his window(what needs to be funded) they seem to run with that one choice and never see anything else. So, we the end user lose out. The SCAR sucks, everyone knows this. But We (USASOC) have pushed it and over funded it and now we have it in Army Times and we basically can't turn back from it.

My Box ..& .02

[CDRODA396]

The SCAR was originally a SEAL requirement, specifically they wanted a weapon that would fire immediately upon breaking the surface of water, as stated above it can do.

The main impetus behind the SCAR has not been USASOC, which they have not helped, but the main push has been SOCOM all along. Specifically an Infantry COL who is the PM down at Tampa. More recently, the Dpty G8, USASOC (18A) has been pushing it, going so far as to making the statement, "We are ready to accept the SCAR right now, and turn in our M-4's to get it," at the last SOCOM Weapons Integrated Product Team (IPT) meeting.

This is NOT the position held at USASFC, which is more fix its problems, prove it works and then we'll move forward. MG Csrnko, CG, USASFC was briefed on the SCAR about two weeks ago. The VTC included all the Groups, USASFC, USASOC and USSOCOM, mainly represented by the O-6 PM.

At that meeting the recurring problems, like the butt-stock breaking, identified over three years ago as an issue, and again found most recently in April (I think it was April, maybe May) at the last User Assement, were highlighted.

MG Csrnko asked some good questions, including, and probably most importantly, has the thing really been tested in anything other than a "sterile range" enviornment, which the answer was no.

So, it has been requested by USASFC that the current "issues" get addressed, for good, and it get tested in a FTX, CTC type enviornment, being used, "like we are going to use it." Until then, we are keeping the M-4A1.

And that's what I know about that.

[longrange1947]

Why don't they send the dam thing to our range and stop having hissy fits every time we get our hands on one? AS we stated to some personnel on testing, we will let you know exactly what will happen to a weapon in 7 weeks as we put about 7 years worth of rounds through them in realistic situations. :munchin

Instead they get all bent when we play, as we do not play political. :D

[Team Sergeant]

The SCAR was originally a SEAL requirement, specifically they wanted a weapon that would fire immediately upon breaking the surface of water, as stated above it can do.



I remember when the SEALS sent forwaed a requirement for a SEAL pistol and the USSOCOM "Frankenstein" pistol was born. A few years later the SEALS called and asked if we (I was assigned to USASFC) wanted them......:rolleyes:

If the SCAR was any good other units would already be using them.;)

[The Reaper]

Why don't they send the dam thing to our range and stop having hissy fits every time we get our hands on one? AS we stated to some personnel on testing, we will let you know exactly what will happen to a weapon in 7 weeks as we put about 7 years worth of rounds through them in realistic situations. :munchin

Instead they get all bent when we play, as we do not play political. :D

The former AMU commander asked HK the same thing about the XM8. "Why not let us have a few to try out, and we will give you some honest feedback."

The reply was the same, "Well, it is not quite ready for that, we might consider that later, once we have some more of the bugs worked out."

Meanwhile, the Army was already prepared to sign a big contract for them.

The number of non-SOF people making decisions at USSOCOM to buy gear for the troops is astounding. Some are good, some are not good, and most are somewhere in between.

Agree about KAC as well.

TR

[82ndtrooper]

I remember when the SEALS sent forwaed a requirement for a SEAL pistol and the USSOCOM "Frankenstein" pistol was born. A few years later the SEALS called and asked if we (I was assigned to USASFC) wanted them......:rolleyes:

If the SCAR was any good other units would already be using them.;)

That "pistol" is now back at Crane. NAVSPECWAR Command ordered them all back to Crane. Some of the teams insisted on keeping them so SPECWAR quit issuing .45 ACP ammo. Some team members have actually opted to take them down range and secure ammunition in theater.

Some did enjoy the "pistols" traits for over the beach and as a hidesite weapon. Some are also pissed that a replacement suppressed pistol was not issued prior to the order to return the "pistols" to Crane.

For what it's worth.

[Surgicalcric]

http://www.military.com/news/article/operators-test-new-commando-rifle.html
Military.com|by Christian Lowe

Operators Test New Commando Rifle

It's a rifle designed specifically for the special operations community. Modular barrels, ambidextrous controls, a gas-piston operating system, a host of adjustment options -- but you already know that.

So with all the slick marketing language and eye-popping specifications of the SOCOM Combat Assault Rifle, it's a given that operators will embrace the thing wholeheartedly, right?

Well, let's ask them.

"This rifle is awesome," said one Special Forces operator who, like the rest of the Green Berets in this interview, declined to be named for security reasons. "It's spot on."

Now you get an idea of how the men who'll use the weapon in combat felt about it, not just some six-figure marketing guru spewing crafty catch-phrases. But what's most interesting is why they liked the rifle so much.

In an exclusive, Military.com joined a group of about a dozen special operations Soldiers from around the country who traveled to Northern Virginia this summer to test fire the SCAR before their upcoming deployment to the Middle East. Ground rules agreed to between the special operators, the rifle manufacturer and Military.com precluded naming the unit, its members or its deployment destination.

See the Military.com SCAR Demo Slideshow
http://images.military.com/slideshows/scar-demo.htm

The SCAR, which comes in a 5.56mm version and a 7.62mm one, is nearing the end of its field user assessment phase -- the final stage before full-rate production and fielding to units under U.S. Special Operations Command, including SEALs, Green Berets and Air Force Special Tactics units.

The entry of the SCAR into the spec ops community comes as the services, Congress and the Pentagon scuffle over whether or not to replace the current M4 rifle and address persistent complaints over the standard-issued carbine's reported lack of "stopping power" and its need for constant maintenance and cleaning to avoid jams.

But ask the special operations troops firing both the Mk-16 (the 5.56mm version of the SCAR) and the Mk-17, its 7.62mm brethren, and you'll get a completely different response on the rifles' advantages over the venerable M4.

To these hardened commandos, the issue wasn't the new carbine's gas-piston system that many experts agree causes fewer stoppages than the all-gas operated M4 -- they keep their weapons in tip top shape. Instead, some operators appreciated how well the SCAR felt with lead pouring from its muzzle.

"I like it a lot better than the M4," one special operator said after firing a magazine full of 5.56mm through the Mk-16. "There's a lot less recoil."

One Special Forces Soldier applauded the weapon's controls, with safety latches located on both sides of the receiver and situated much closer to the weapon's handle.

"This works better with my stumpy hands," the stocky operator joked.

But by far the feature that most impressed these operators was the SCAR's ability to change from something as small as a submachine gun to a weapon with the reach of a sniper rifle.

Like many competitors to the M4, both the Mk-16 and Mk-17 can be outfitted with barrels ranging from 10 inches for close-quarters battle operations to 18-inch designated marksman barrels.

"That's the best part of this weapon," explained one Special Forces Soldier. "When we deploy, we usually go with just our M4s. But if we're on an operation where we need an overwatch or we're observing at a distance, the M4 doesn't do us much good until it's too late."

With the SCAR, the NCO said, the team could have both the reach and protection of a long gun and the maneuverability and portability of an assault rifle -- all in one.

Both the Mk-17 and Mk-16 have a fully adjustable stock that can be folded to the side to shrink the carbine into the length of a submachine gun. Some of the operators at the test shoot gave the stumpy rifle a try in this configuration, but marksmanship was mixed.

"I'm not sure I'd ever want to fire it like this," one operator said after shooting the Mk-17 with its stock folded. "But it'd sure be nice to fold it up like this for transporting in a vehicle or something."

Officials with FN-USA say that U.S. Special Operations Command has ordered about 18,000 SCAR variants for commandos and a limited run of about 1,200 rifles has already begun.

It's unclear still whether these Special Forces Soldiers will be slinging lead down range with a SCAR pinned to their shoulder on their next deployment, but judging by the pile of spent casings littering the ground during their demo shoot, some of them wouldn't complain if the new rifle wound up in their armory.

[longrange1947]

"I like it a lot better than the M4," one special operator said after firing a magazine full of 5.56mm through the Mk-16. "There's a lot less recoil."


NOW there is a test!! :mad:

I have seen those "tests", they are only cosmetic BS, shoot a few rounds and comment on the out come.

I would like to know exactly what Spec Op unit or support unit said that, as most of the actual SF guys I know dislike the weapon immensely.

There is another up or down "actual test" going on now, I will await the outcome. :munchin

[Team Sergeant]

July 29, 2008
Military.com|by
Christian Lowe

Christian Lowe is a member of this website.

Christian you may want to answer a few questions concerning your above article.

Christian, I'd especially like to know the creds/name of your supposed "operator".

Yes I'll keep it confidential, unless I find out your operator is actually in SFAS or has a profit motive......:rolleyes:

Team Sergeant

[Team Sergeant]

NOW there is a test!! :mad:

I have seen those "tests", they are only cosmetic BS, shoot a few rounds and comment on the out come.

I would like to know exactly what Spec Op unit or support unit said that, as most of the actual SF guys I know dislike the weapon immensely.

There is another up or down "actual test" going on now, I will await the outcome. :munchin


Christian Lowe can be reached @ christian.lowe@military-inc.com

You SF soldiers that have had hands on this weapon might want to drop Christian an email. Or better yet start posting on this thread your issues with the wonderful SCAR that's about to be force fed to you in large doses.

Non-SF'ers feel free to NOT post on this thread.(unless you work for FN and wish to defend your weapon)

It's time to take the SCAR to task.

Team Sergeant

[PinelandVet66]

Just recently fired the SCAR-L. Didnt like it much. Weapon made a odd ping noise from the muzzle every round I fired and if you fire right handed with the charging handle on the left side and dont utilize the vertical fore grip its easy to whack your self in the hand which doesnt feel great and also could cause malfunctions in the chambering cycle.

[Psywar1-0]

Risking the Team Sgt's wrath, as Im neither SF nor work for FN, but I work in an armory full of SCAR's. ;) I would go out on a limb here and say that the odd pinging your hearing is from that craptastick Flash hider/suppressor mount that it seems is simply tighted down with a wrench, without even loctight, let alone rockset which is IMHO the only way to secure something that is holding a supressor on the end of a gun.

[MeC86]

Just got this from the boss. He wants me to take it out to the range and give it test or two.

Any new word on this system?

[longrange1947]

The word we just got was that the system is on hold and probably scrapped. :munchin

[MeC86]

Wow, Thought they were going forward with it. Is there a different weapon in mind or is it back to the drawing board?

[longrange1947]

I have now heard it is scrapped.

[Peregrino]

I have now heard it is scrapped.

I'll ask around for follow-up/details from our side. In any case - it's about flipping time. Any bets on the next politically motivated solution looking for a problem? :munchin

[kgoerz]

They are still training and using it here at MARSOC.
Don't know if they are carrying it on op's overseas thou.

[longrange1947]

K - one of our guys started to take a heavy to the Benning comp and left it behind because it would not perform worth a s**t. He and his partner came in 2d without the boat anchor.

Peregrino - We have been told to prepare to turn all of them in for return to FN.

[The Reaper]

Last I saw, procurement money for the SCAR had been deleted from the budget.

Great, we get all the way to the production and fielding phase of yet another SOCOM project before someone puts them in the hands of SF soldiers and gets some feedback from actual end users.:rolleyes:

What a huge waste of time and money.:confused:

Of course, given the raging success of SOCOM's Mk 23 Offensive Crew-Served Hand Cannon, who could have predicted this?

TR

[Peregrino]

I still get a laugh every time I think about the "Walter Mitties" who've spent upwards of $7000.00 (for a rifle projected to cost the gov't +/- $1700.00) to be "the first one on your block with the new SOCOM rifle". "Take advantage of the research and development that is creating the next combat rifle for the new generation of special operations "operator" and get yours now." Etc., etc., ad nauseum.

[Sinister]

You'd think we were taking lessons from Leg Army on how to buy our weapons.

Bad enough we're using Navy systems to do it.

The jack-assery requirement for changing barrels in the ORP was just astounding.

[kgoerz]

Last I saw, procurement money for the SCAR had been deleted from the budget.

Great, we get all the way to the production and fielding phase of yet another SOCOM project before someone puts them in the hands of SF soldiers and gets some feedback from actual end users.:rolleyes:

What a huge waste of time and money.:confused:

Of course, given the raging success of SOCOM's Mk 23 Offensive Crew-Served Hand Cannon, who could have predicted this?

TR

Haven't they been in our hands already? Most here have negative opinions of the SCAR. They are the End Users.
Rick?? Has SOCOM officially dropped the SCAR Program? If so, I need to let them know here to drop it from the training.

[longrange1947]

K - Do not know if USSOCOM has dropped it only that is the word at USASOC. You are correct, they did get into some hands. Problem is that the project should have ended long ago and almost did several times. The users were split on the weapon some liked it with some complaints on ergonomics and some hated it. I believe some did make it to the zone but I do not have any first hand knowledge of the results.

I do know that several years ago USASOC had a cow because we had gotten our hands on a couple. Our comments were not appreciated but they did make a few changes based on the complaints of the reciprocating bolt handle and some of the attaching points. Not enough, evidently to save the project.

We had both the light and heavy on the range and again some was OK with it and some hated it. While the heavy was not a sniper rifle and was never intended for anything but a battle rifle, it had accuracy and reliability problems. The sniper rifle never made it past development and initial testing. The guys that tested it said that it did hold well but the ergonomics sucked. There was not enough testing time to check on reliability and repeatability.

Make quick take on the debacle. Had they listened to the shooters early in th game and not tried to save a program without user input, it may have worked. My biggest complaint is this, why change systems if it is not a large step into better then we have, and not just another design of the same old same old? The SCAR was not a technological leap, hell it was not even a baby step. :munchin

Hey K, why don't you stop by the old range and see the new that is going on, I think you will like it. I have a new sniper simulator that is 50 meters long but will simulate 800 meters with live ammo, wind, altitude, live action scenarios videos and still in the beta version. Do a stop by if you get a chance. I am assuming you are playing here in NC. :D

[kgoerz]

K - Do not know if USSOCOM has dropped it only that is the word at USASOC. You are correct, they did get into some hands. Problem is that the project should have ended long ago and almost did several times. The users were split on the weapon some liked it with some complaints on ergonomics and some hated it. I believe some did make it to the zone but I do not have any first hand knowledge of the results.

I do know that several years ago USASOC had a cow because we had gotten our hands on a couple. Our comments were not appreciated but they did make a few changes based on the complaints of the reciprocating bolt handle and some of the attaching points. Not enough, evidently to save the project.

We had both the light and heavy on the range and again some was OK with it and some hated it. While the heavy was not a sniper rifle and was never intended for anything but a battle rifle, it had accuracy and reliability problems. The sniper rifle never made it past development and initial testing. The guys that tested it said that it did hold well but the ergonomics sucked. There was not enough testing time to check on reliability and repeatability.

Make quick take on the debacle. Had they listened to the shooters early in th game and not tried to save a program without user input, it may have worked. My biggest complaint is this, why change systems if it is not a large step into better then we have, and not just another design of the same old same old? The SCAR was not a technological leap, hell it was not even a baby step. :munchin

Hey K, why don't you stop by the old range and see the new that is going on, I think you will like it. I have a new sniper simulator that is 50 meters long but will simulate 800 meters with live ammo, wind, altitude, live action scenarios videos and still in the beta version. Do a stop by if you get a chance. I am assuming you are playing here in NC. :D

I'm down here at the MARSOC School. I'm running the CMMS this next class. This is their Q-Course. So they don't have a Sniper Program. Some growing pains here. They only graduated their second class two weeks ago. But it's great to be working with these guys. Motivated young warriors in my Book. We are trying to link up with you guys up there

[longrange1947]

I'm down here at the MARSOC School. I'm running the CMMS this next class. This is their Q-Course. So they don't have a Sniper Program. Some growing pains here. They only graduated their second class two weeks ago. But it's great to be working with these guys. Motivated young warriors in my Book. We are trying to link up with you guys up there

They have made several stops on the compound, to answer your question, I do not know if only USASOC is dropping out or if all of USSOCOM is dropping it. I would believe that USSOCOM is though. Maybe Peregrino can give you a better read o that one.

[The Reaper]

Guys, your exchange might be better taken to PM.

You are in the open here.

TR

[allamerican8204]

I hope I don't offend anyone by replying to this thread, as i'm not a QP and relatively new I have been on a pretty good bit and mostly reading but I do think I have discovered FN's intentions.

I recently(this week) purchased a new SCAR 16 in black. I wanted to get a good assault rifle, as I have mostly handguns and hunting rifles & shotguns. I had gotten a big check from the GI bill and wanted to treat myself. Being a veteran of the 82nd I had plenty of experience with an M4 and was looking for a change. Well when I researched some of the newer weapons coming out I came upon the SCAR series and numerous articles of how "nameless operators" loved it and SOCOM had adopted it. Well what better way to validate the greatness of a weapon than it being adopted by SOCOM and prefered by actual Operators? Well now I realize my mistake of having access to this forum and after purchasing I simply searched "SCAR" and came upon this thread. My impressions of it after shooting it is that it is exceptionally accurate. With the eotech after a few groups zeroing it I was able to make one ragged hole with 3 rounds(American tactical XM193's). However, with a dpms that would have run $1000 cheaper I could have most likely done the same thing. I agree with the early post that it is not a quantum leap in technology. Also the stock feels great to me once I adjusted it just right but it does seem flemsy and like it would fail after heavy use. One question I did have, has anyone who has fired the military version have any problems with the noise level? I know the muzzlebreak is different on the civi version. On the very first shot (I wear hearing protection when firing handguns but never with long guns) I completely lost hearing in my left ear. It was worse than firing my kimber. I would imagine if the noise level is the same on the military version you would easily go deaf during an engagement firing only a magazine. Well there is my .01 cents :cool: sorry if it's not my place to post on this subject. But I think FN is making a killing on selling the civi version touting it's SOCOM contract and those "nameless operators."

T.P.

[Peregrino]

One question I did have, has anyone who has fired the military version have any problems with the noise level? I know the muzzlebreak is different on the civi version. On the very first shot (I wear hearing protection when firing handguns but never with long guns) I completely lost hearing in my left ear. T.P.

I hope you enjoy your purchase. Everyone has the right to learn their own lessons in life. My question has to do with the quoted portion of your post. Are you out of your ever loving mind? Rifles are far more damaging to your hearing, not just for the decibles but for the frequency too. You've only got one set of ears and anything that causes you to completely lose hearing, also causes permanent and cumulative damage. We've got a number of threads here devoted to hearing protection for excellent reasons. Crickets (tinnitus) can mask sounds that might give you sufficient warning to save your life. Why do you think the Army developed the current generation of earplugs (that can be worn outside the wire)? Why do you think SF is using electronic hearing protection? I go as far as to keep a set of the SureFire plugs in my carry bag with my pistol, just in case I have time to put them in before things get noisy.

[allamerican8204]

Wow thanks for that. Now that I think of it that makes a ton of sense. I started shooting at a very young age and shot a lot because I lived in a rural area and it is very easy to go out shoot and I also hunt. During my time on AD i always wore ear plugs on the range simply because we had to. Also during that time, I didn't really get a chance to shoot much outside of the military. Now I'm almost done with college and when in town I have to go to the range @ the national forest and I wear hearing protection because everyone else is shooting god knows what. Maybe it's possible it didn't bother me before hand because I damaged them so bad. And during the AD time up until now i either wore plugs or shot rarely so that allowed them to heal, heance why it hurt so bad this weekend. And the hearing protection the army developed you are referring too, is that the yellow/green ear plugs? We were issued those on the very tail-end of iraq, right before I got out and I never had a chance to use them. But thanks again you may have saved my ability to hear.

T.P.

[The Reaper]

Wow thanks for that. Now that I think of it that makes a ton of sense. I started shooting at a very young age and shot a lot because I lived in a rural area and it is very easy to go out shoot and I also hunt. During my time on AD i always wore ear plugs on the range simply because we had to. Also during that time, I didn't really get a chance to shoot much outside of the military. Now I'm almost done with college and when in town I have to go to the range @ the national forest and I wear hearing protection because everyone else is shooting god knows what. Maybe it's possible it didn't bother me before hand because I damaged them so bad. And during the AD time up until now i either wore plugs or shot rarely so that allowed them to heal, heance why it hurt so bad this weekend. And the hearing protection the army developed you are referring too, is that the yellow/green ear plugs? We were issued those on the very tail-end of iraq, right before I got out and I never had a chance to use them. But thanks again you may have saved my ability to hear.

T.P.


Just to clarify the point, hearing damage does not "heal".

As I understand it, the temporary deafness may go away, but the actual damage is permanent. Once it is gone, it is gone forever.

I hope you learn and conserve what you have left.

FWIW, I hope you enjoy your purchase, and agree with your assessment that you could have gotten similar performance for a lot less money.

TR

[longrange1947]

To add to the warnings on hearing damage, I am looking into hearing aids now. I have a few years behind the long gun and few years before the hearing pro being mandatory. Protect your ears. I have nights I have a hard time sleeping due to all the "noise" I presently hear all the time, and becomes a crescendo when it is quiet.

I have no idea how much this is going to cost but I can not hear most conversations and only guess at what is being said, which makes for some interesting replies. :munchin :D

Where your dam hearing pro!!! It is not macho not to, it is stupid!!

[PinelandVet66]

My company tested both the SCAR-L and the SCAR-H at our PMT and i have to say I wasn't blown away or anything by the gun but it is not a bad weapon. Most of us will grumble all day about the muscle memory already being in place with the AR platform and that we should not change anything because that is what the operator is comfortable with currently. I have been away at school for 3.5 months and Im not sure if the guys took the guns downrange but it looks as though this platform is not going away so we might as well embrace it.

[122418b]

Personally....I would rather carry an FNC, even though you have to be plastic man to work the safety.

[longrange1947]

If you wish to embrace the SCAR, that is great, just be careful of the following:

With the reciprocating bolt handle, you can knock it out of battery when yo have to use two hands for a task and lay the weapon along your side with the sling or bang it on something while building climbing or hook it on your body armor or mag pouches, or any other pouch. All of which has happened as we played with it and any of which would be a very bad shock in combat.

With the reciprocating bolt handle take care of you fingers and thumb in some shooting positions as the bolt can and will whack them good during rapid fire in a stress shoot event that tests your ability and requirement to fire in other than range only conditions. Unfortunately most guys only shoot it on the range when they state they like it and not under stress while moving on targets of both hostile and friendly; during climbing or movement through obstacles; or when working on one problem and a "bad guy" target appears.

IF you are in a fire fight, protect your non firing hand on the forestock as it will give you second degree burns. It is ill protected and insulated and after two mags will really warm up your hand.

Embrace but wit full knowledge, not just because it looks cool. And unfortunately that is why some say they like it. It looks futuristic and cool. "I like carrying it because it looks bad assed." Good shit, how did it perform in combat situations?

Last post on this one, sorry, I had promised myself that I would not post anymore but nothing pisses me off more than hearing you may as well embrace something as it is a done deal. That is exactly what the forces of mediocrity want you to do. I refuse to do that and ask only that the forces receive a weapon that is the best out there, not the one that looks cool, the one that we may as well accept, or one that is change for change sake to get Congress off our backs over some "perceived" problems by some channel on cable vision. I want a weapon that is a quantum leap and that truly is worth the dam money or put the money in realistic ranges and give the troops range time to actually KNOW how to shoot and not try to make technology do it for them.

My LAST 2 CENTS on this subject.

[koz]

Rick -
my two cents on your last two cents... I've played with both the SCAR-L and H and didn't like them but if I mention that in some other places, I am just a hater, etc...

Your creds are far beyond most (other than the operator in these pictures:D) and I always appreciate your opinion and insight on topics. For sanity's sake, please don't hold back...

[blue02hd]

Rick -
my two cents on your last two cents... I've played with both the SCAR-L and H and didn't like them but if I mention that in some other places, I am just a hater, etc...

Your creds are far beyond most (other than the operator in these pictures:D) and I always appreciate your opinion and insight on topics. For sanity's sake, please don't hold back...

KOZ, WHERE did you get that picture of Stras from??

[koz]

KOZ, WHERE did you get that picture of Stras from??

I googled FAT Stras pictures....



Ok I actually googled fat airsoft kid... :lifter

[WTFOver]

Shot and did detailed disassembly of Scar and variants at Joint Armorer's course. This weapon is a liability. The trigger housing group, while the genesis is the FN has been hopelessly over-complicated; over 7 springs. You need a bench and dental picks to unfu*k the lower. The extracter rentention pin is retained with a washer. It is smaller than an M-4 or M-16 variant, so you can imagine, this thing is tiny. Instructors said the pin is angled down so it will still cycle if the pin falls out. I'm sorry, but depending on an engineering guess is not realistic. The instructors where lukewarm about it as well. But they just dump ammo until they break and log it. This thing has been built by committee.

The one drawn from the armory was assenbled with the wrong bolt; the heavy 7.62 rotating bolt was in a 5.56 variant. The previous class was filled with SEALs; go figure.

The reciprocating handle is the first complaint from those that shoot this thing, but the long term maintainance issues are overly complicated, and designed (in my oppinion) to drive costs up and let FN make more money.

In the meantime, I'll work with the broke stuff I got now.

[Streck-Fu]

Shot and did detailed disassembly of Scar and variants at Joint Armorer's course.

I'll be attending the course in August and now have another reason to look forward to it. I have only shot the SCAR light once so have no practical experience with it. It will be interesting to get a closer look.

[18Z]

Just thought I would throw in my 2 cents,

First off I'm just going to put down what I know as fact from experience with this weapon MK-17 (7.62 variant) My team has 12 SCAR Heavy's, I don't let my team use anything but them, because of the previously mentioned differences in the M4. I agree it was completely foreign feeling in my hands and it actually took about five and a half months before it seemed as familiar as my M4 once had. Me being a knuckle dragger from the CIF and all. I am very familiar with the m4, I remember when we broke them out of the boxes guys had similar complaints then as with the Barrettes; So my intent was to just jump in with both feet 100% committed to test this weapon. I agree the weapon is not perfect it is to loud, gets really hot, and the bolt took a little getting used to. We have shot these guns all day long at flat ranges, as a matter of fact we had shot several thousand rounds through these guns without cleaning them and have not had one single weapons malfunction. The suppressors are junk they need to be thrown out who really cares about silencing it if i'm shooting a 4 foot fireball......I use the Standard barrel on mine the rest of the team all uses the CQB(shorter) barrel none of us has tried the long barrel yet as where we are located in Iraq currently we can't shoot past 100 meters. the sling attaching point needs to be re worked But I can Say and this is my opinion all 21 years of it...THIS GUN WILL SAVE LIVES...If I, a person who has spent most of his career in the CIF can learn to use and appreciate the SCAR anyone can. Just keep and open mind and look at the tests....TTPs change all the time that is what we do, we adapt and evolve faster than big army that is why we are the tip of the spear.

[Landlubber]

My team has 6 x Light, 6 x Heavy, and 1 x MK-13 (EGLM) in AFG now. We also took our full compliment of M-4s. A few of the salty guys that were late additions to the team refused to patrol with the new weapon systems, no worries. A couple of us ran them through the entire PMT (6 WHOLE weeks, WTF!) and have used a variant of the two SCARs throughout this deployment. We got in a pretty heavy contact on one patrol. During the PMT we had a cracked pistol grip where it attached to the lower receiver and it had to be replaced (SCAR L). The weapon systems took some time for the operators to adjust to, as already mentioned in this forum. I have had, to date, zero malfunctions from the SCAR H since we received them a year ago. The SCAR-L gave me one magazine feed issue, placing the magazine in with the bolt forward, and then charging the bolt resulted in a double feed??? Other than that , I've had no issues.

I'm not an 18B or an armorer, and frankly know just enough to keep my weapon working and clean, so my technical knowledge is limited to basic user level. I will say that hands down, having 7.62 rounds (LR) flying out towards the enemy at significant range (600-800m) has been a big advantage. Most of our engagements have been at range. My SOs use their own weapon systems mission dependent, and a couple of my guys carry the SCAR H, and half the team is using either M4s or SCAR Ls. The issue is cross loading ammo. We went black on ammo in all systems during the big TIC and our speedballs came in and saved our ass. Me and two of my guys carrying the SCAR H with the LCAN and the bipod/fwd pistol grip loved the set up and had good affects. I had to put out some suppressive fire and the limitation of only 20 rds per mag sucked. Speaking of mags, the SCAR H mags are one of a kind, not interchangeable with M-14s / SR-25...WTF?? I guess FN needs to make their money, but how did we let that happen?

I like the capability this weapon system brings to the team. With our SR25s, 240, SCAR-Hs, M-24s, and the sketchy M110s (no more sketchy then the SCAR I suppose), we have a team wide 7.62 capability which is pretty relevant for this AO. I've seen the latest MARSOF teams show up with a couple of SCAR Hs (only weeks ago), and now my new STS guy just brought a SCAR H and MK-13 into theater. I've also heard rumor the we (USASFC) will not receive more SCARs or parts, but this team has definitely enjoyed the 7.62 capability on this trip, regardless of platform. Who ever has the power, we've got to get the teams this 7.62 capability (besides belt feds and sniper systems) for this theater.

My two cents...I don't care what weapon platform it is, I just want to be able to have 7.62 across the team if we so deem it necessary. The SCAR H has served us well on this trip, although I'm sure there are better weapon systems out there. My question is, not unlike most of yours, why don't we have them?

BTW, can someone tell me when I'm coming home??!!

[PinelandVet66]

Could be all BS, but I ran into my GRP Civilian gunsmith in Balad a few weeks ago and he tells me that the SCAR (L) will not be retained by SOF, but the SCAR (H) 7.62 will remain on teams or arrive to teams so that we can keep the 7.62 assault rifle capability.

[Streck-Fu]

After coming across some civilian praise for the SCARs, I revisited this thread because of the progression of history contained here.

I'm curious now how the SCAR-Hs are holding up? I spent some time a couple of years ago at the training armory at Crane doing some maintenance on the SCARs...mostly replacing cracked trigger housings and cursing the little parts.

Are they holding up under use or is the honeymoon over?

[Surgicalcric]

...I'm curious now how the SCAR-Hs are holding up? I spent some time a couple of years at the training armory at Crane doing some maintenance on the SCARs...mostly replacing cracked trigger housings.
Are they holding up under use or is the honeymoon over?

The honeymoon was over before the vows were said for most of the Regiment. In fact, of the 4 assigned to our ODA only one has been fired and of that one probably only 200 rounds for fam fire.

I will stick with the other 11 sniper rifles we have (13 if you count the M110s - I dont consider them "sniper" rifles.)

Crip

[BRAVO-SMASH]

We turned in our MK16. It didn’t offer enough to swap from our M4s. Depending on who you talk to, the MK17 has its uses other than familiarization and ammo expenditure. With the Elcan Specter DR 1x/4x sight with M118LR rounds, its a nice substitute for carrying a sniper rifle while on patrol. But for an assault platform, it sure kicks pretty hard. Guess you won’t be the guy suppressing…

[Streck-Fu]

So the 17s are not getting used much. Thanks.

Considering that, I doubt there is much more to add than has been already discussed in this thread.

If anyone is using them operationally and has positive comments, I'd be interested in hearing them. It seems all the positive comment have come from static ranges.

[wyld3man]

We had some NET training a few months ago before our deployment on the MK17. I was skeptical at first mostly due to the polymer lower but I have been carrying it for the past few weeks and so far I do not have any negative comments on it other than the polymer lower and I do not like how the sling attaches to it. The sling attaches to metal loops on the weapon via metal hooks on the sling and after each patrol I have noticed a lot of metal shavings that over time might cause a problem. The cracked receiver is due to people messing with the trigger mech. when it is field stripped. The hammer will slam into the rear portion of the mag well and over time it will crack. I know because at Joint Armors I was checking out how the trigger mech. on it worked and letting the hammer fly forward. The instructor came by and told me not to do that because it could crack the receiver. He then pointed out that the receiver was already cracked and that was why. He also told to refrain from taking out the trigger mech. as the pins that hold the trigger mech. in place, in time will not fit so snug, metal and plastic don't mix. I decided to carry it for 3 reasons, I prefer 7.62 over 5.56, if we go mounted and I am on the CROWS I like how small of a package it is with the but stock folded and the 13 inch barrel and since we have one I mine as well use it. We have 2 of them on our team and both are being carried so as time goes I can give you more feed back.

[brokenvan]

I've been carrying the MK 17 since I got in country. Been loving it. I have switched between barrels, as I had the 20in on there, but now that's off since it's huge and gets in the way of everything. Now I'm rocking the standard 16in barrel with the SCAR-specific, 130gr 7.62mm rounds. I went with those due to the higher muzzle velocity vs. M80 and M118LR and that they were designed in conjunction with the SCAR.

Pros:

1. Accuracy. The SCAR is an extremely accurate gun. The shot group is very tight, definitely 1 MOA or better every time. I have been able to hit 800m with a 1-4x Elcan and the 130gr rds with consistency. Even the 13in barrel will hit 500m with ease.

2. Ergonomics. The ability to raise and lower the cheek weld independent of the length of pull is very nice. The amount of options for adjustment seems a little daunting, but getting it to fit you makes it worthwhile.

3. Gas piston operation. Maybe just personal preference as my personal AR is an LWRC, but I am a firm believer in gas piston guns. Yeah, the report is a little louder and there's a bit more kick and flash, but I'll take those trade-offs for the warm and fuzzy I get knowing that my gun won't have a malfunction due to the heat and carbon buildup in the chamber and bolt.

4. Ease of disassembly/reassembly/cleaning. Too easy. Not a lot of moving parts, no tools needed, and the gas piston operation makes cleaning a breeze.

Cons:

1. Reciprocating charging handle. It's bitten me a few times. Having it mounted on the right, my hand hits the optic sometimes, so I moved it to the left and have had fewer issues with that.

2. The magazines. I wish they would've gone with standard mags. I worry about dropping mags since we don't have too many replacements. The SR-25 pouches kind of work, but not as well as if it was with an actual SR-25 mag.

3. Component durability. As stated in the previous post, I too have noticed the ease at which the metal sling loops wear. I have corrected this by using the 2-point VTAC sling, but it would be an issue for guys who want either a single point or if their sling has metal attaching clips. The buttstock is also held into place by the plastic lower, and neither seem to be particularly sturdy. Haven't seen it yet, but I've been hearing that the buttstock breaks easily.

4. Not everybody is using it. If I run out of ammo, I can't bum a mag or two from somebody else. I'm SOL or delinking 240 ammo.

All in all, I have to say the pros outweigh the cons. The fact that it's 7.62, accurate as hell, gas piston, and ergonomically pleasing is much more worthwhile to me. But as always, YMMV.

[longrange1947]

1. Reciprocating charging handle. It's bitten me a few times. Having it mounted on the right, my hand hits the optic sometimes, so I moved it to the left and have had fewer issues with that.

Take care with the bolt handle on the left side. It is easy, at least in our play, to knock the bolt out of battery and not know it until you need it. Dry firing in a fire fight sucks big ones.

This usually happens by snagging on gear while moving, the charging handle will be pulled slightly to the rear and thus bring the bolt out of battery.

Have you had heating problems on the forestock? This was another major problem when we fired the weapon. It took less than a mag to make it uncomfortable and the second mag would make it a pain.

Good luck brother! :)

[Team Sergeant]

Take care with the bolt handle on the left side. It is easy, at least in our play, to knock the bolt out of battery and not know it until you need it. Dry firing in a fire fight sucks big ones.

This usually happens by snagging on gear while moving, the charging handle will be pulled slightly to the rear and thus bring the bolt out of battery.

Have you had heating problems on the forestock? This was another major problem when we fired the weapon. It took less than a mag to make it uncomfortable and the second mag would make it a pain.

Good luck brother! :)

It's amazing in this day and age they cannot make a free floating charging handle, one that locks down after being charged......... I'm not too keen on that handle moving back and forth and did not even think about the possibility of knocking the weapon out of battery just by a slight tap on the charging handle! Bad design.

[The Reaper]

It's amazing in this day and age they cannot make a free floating charging handle, one that locks down after being charged......... I'm not too keen on that handle moving back and forth and did not even think about the possibility of knocking the weapon out of battery just by a slight tap on the charging handle! Bad design.

They can.

It was designed that way because that is what USSOCOM told them was required. IIRC, it is in the RFP.

TR

[brokenvan]

I haven't had an issue knocking it out of battery yet, but I'll be watching for that. Nor have I had the issue with the hot forestock as I use a GripPod on it, so I'm not touching the metal.

However, I will run a little bit of testing to see if I can get it to go out of battery. I would prefer to find out beforehand if it should be something it's prone to.

BV

[JCJ]

Is there some major flaw that makes the SCAR suck, functionally? I trust you guys more than the powerpoint on how much SOCOM says it's great. I didn't care too much for the ergonomics, but all I've done is hold the thing.

Also, just out of curiosity, what would you like to have seen in the SASS?

We picked up 2 17's on our way down range and I agree the grip and location of the selector is just, well odd. We zeroed them and shot them with and without the suppressors however the put off a tone when fired. A Ding if you will and from what I was told mind you that is why optics and attachments such as LA-5's break when used. At the time the only optic I was told you could use successfully were optics for the 240B, like those are just lying around. So for night work useless! Finally we just folded the stocks and put the mags in or blowout bags and used them as car door guns.

[JCJ]

It's amazing in this day and age they cannot make a free floating charging handle, one that locks down after being charged......... I'm not too keen on that handle moving back and forth and did not even think about the possibility of knocking the weapon out of battery just by a slight tap on the charging handle! Bad design.

The handles location is terrible. Not to mention you have to find the sweet spot for gripping the forearm, if not the handle will give your thumb a nice little kiss! Of this I am not a fan.
Iron sights are the same for the heavy as the light which was strange and kind of cheap if you ask me. Cheek weld is awkward due to the adjustment of the cheek pad or "cheek plastic piece" if you will.
When I finally got mine zeroed it was dead on and had very little MOA difference when suppressor was added. But here is a kicker I had to adjust the rear sight all the way to the left side, strange. My senior at the time and I verified the zero and all adjustments to the stock to try and find some "give" in the alignment. But one setting down on the cheek pad was too much and it went on from there. Cool looking and great car gun but uh for a car gun can't we just use an AK, they are cheaper and the ammo is abundant? Just saying....

[gus7]

Concur on all counts.

The SCAR may be functional, but FN has not designed an ergonomically friendly weapon since the SAW. Probably all of the French fashion designers working there.

Consensus at the user/operator level is that the maker of the SASS will eventually deliver a product that will be very late, less accurate than the prototypes, less reliable, fragile, finnicky, and extremely expensive to own and maintain. Time will tell.

I agree the 417 would have been worth waiting for. At least one unit has a few now, but as I understand it, they were incredibly expensive.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR
the trigger set up ,controls made of plastic and magazine [its not a m-110 which in the system ] a little rework is needed before gen issue ...

[The Reaper]

the trigger set up ,controls made of plastic and magazine [its not a m-110 which in the system ] a little rework is needed before gen issue ...

Gus, you have not complied with any of the rules and stickies, we have no idea who you are.

Please fix this by COB Sunday.

TR

[fox33c1]

So I have a tendency to buy a civilian example of what ever the team gets issued to it (92f, M4 clone, rem700 with Mk4, etc) being a guard guy the range time is not nearly enough.

So once the Mk 17 Scar-H got to the cage, I went and bought a one (scar 17S). I saw no reason to ever buy a Mk-16 Scar L until we universally switched over and dropped all M4's.

The things I instantly noticed have already been elaborated on extensively ( charging handle, etc) and I will not go to far into those.

There was two things that really bothered the shit out of me. The lower being polymer and the magazines.

The magazine is a rather expensive and fragile item. I have dropped them on concrete a few times and they lose structural integrity pretty quickly. I seen them dropped as few as 7 times and exploded. Retail on these has always hovered in the $65-75 range. The KAC m110 mag and the 308 PMAG are so much better items

The polymer lower is far and away the weak spot of the whole system IMO. They flex, twist, deform and break with extensive use. I have pulled a lower off of a mk17 and when laid on a flat surface the twist in lower was painfully obvious. It was like a bad table that would wobble because of uneven contact surfaces. I figured that it was a matter of time and abuse before my civilian SCAR suffered the same fate.

I wished some one would make a billet lower that would accept standard magazines. God was obviously listening, because I went to NTOA and came across the solution.

A company called Handl Defense was there and they have a billet aluminum lower that accepts KAC and Pmags. I bought one and love it. I've used it in 3-gun and tac rifle matches and not a single issue. They fit tight as a drum and use all the same parts. IMO we should get these on the Mk17, there is a difference between the civilian lower and mk17 lower they said and they are making them.

I am new around here, so I don't know if dropping a plug for a product is cool or not, but I do really like it. Both the Lower and the SCAR.

The SCAR is just like the M16 in 1964, it needs some things looked at and changed. But I think the SCAR has so much potential.

[fox33c1]

check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifGfctIli6A

its an aftermarket metal lower for the scar .... maybe we can get a few?

[fox33c1]

Well

I just figured I'd come back here and let you guys know what has transpired over the last few months.

I contacted the company that made this aluminum lower for the civilian SCAR 17S

After chatting them up I found they had an extensive program to improve the Mk17..since they are local... I stopped by

the SR25 magazine patterned lower that MAGPUL was OEMing the 25 round 7.62 mags to and it is made of a different alloy harder than 7075 aluminum ...I watched them hang 275 lbs off of it

a new buttstock hinge .. they figured out why they were breaking

a new forerail assembly that didnt cause 2nd degree burns, passed the cookoff tests in spec sheet with flying colors, and it adds more rail space

they also are looking at making the gun into some sort of LMG as well

with all of this I figured the project lead at the J8 would be ecstatic

so I showed these guys how to submit to the SORDAC

of course not intrested... I guess we are going a new direction

but since I am a guard guy now... I guess we'll have SCARs until I retire...

[Froggy]

We have several MK-17's assigned to the team. We carry a mixture of MK-17 (short), M4 (10''), M240 and M249, all suppressed except the 240. Most of the time we drop the 240 and just carry the 249. We put the 6x ELCANs with a doctor sight on the SCARs and use them for a long range fires capability when we don't have a dedicated sniper system / SO position for the mission. We can consistently hit out to 1k meters with them, although you're lobbing that round in there at that range. The ELCAN also gives us good PID capability that the EOTECHs on the M4's can't provide. From my perspective, here is rundown on the SCAR:

Advantages:
-Longer range due to combo of 7.62 and optic
-Heavier stopping / destructive power

Disadvantages:
-Ammo capacity
-With suppressor, its pretty long, even with the short barrels
-Ergonomics different from M4-style weapons (re-training IADs)
-Heavier weight requirement with basic load

Bottom line: I think they have their place, but we wouldn't want to give up all our M4's for them.

[mdpatterson]

What can are you guys using on the 17's? I have my preference, but mine isn't seeing the type of use that yours is.

Mike