View Full Version : M4 Weapon System
NousDefionsDoc
03-10-2006, 17:02
Ok Sluggos, tell me everything I need to know about the current M4 weapon system - to include optics.
The Reaper
03-10-2006, 17:09
Issued or aftermarket?
TR
NousDefionsDoc
03-10-2006, 17:12
18X 18B wannabes Sir.
Issue.
The Reaper
03-10-2006, 17:54
Claro, Sargento!
Backing out.
TR
NousDefionsDoc
03-10-2006, 17:56
LOL - just trying to stir up a little hip-pocket training Boss. Don't go far...
NDD,
The M4 is a gas operated, air cooled, magazine fed, shoulder fired weapon with a collapsable stock. It is a smaller version of the M16, and has apporoximately 80% of the same parts as the M16. It fires the standard NATO 5.56 round. The M4 was first issued in 1994.
It's length varies between 29.4 inches and 33 inches depending on if the stock is collapsed or extended.
The weight without magazine is 5.9 lbs and with a fully loaded magazine is 6.9 lbs.
The barrel length is 14.5 inches.
The muzzle velocity is 2900 ft/sec.
It possessives a NATO m1913 flat-top rail for attachment of optical sights. The issued rear sight is a M16A4 target style sight adjustable for windage and elevation to 600m.
The effective range is 600m.
It can accept the M203 grenade launcher.
The magazine for the M4 holds 30 rounds.
NousDefionsDoc
03-10-2006, 20:30
I got google too.
Tell me more.
Deleted due to lack of SA.
The Reaper
03-10-2006, 23:50
Bob:
You are barely old enough to own a rifle, and you live in a state where it is probably illegal to own an M-4.
The question was directed at 18Bs, which you are not.
What you are parrotting is what you read, saw, or heard, not what you know. Please keep in your lane and comment on your personal experience.
I don't need to see pictures of AF pogues posing with PJs weapons, gangsta style. We have our own pics of US with our weapons, downrange.
Mark LaRue does not make a red dot sight, he makes mostly mounts and targets.
Have a very SF day.
Apologies to NDD for stepping on the thread again.
TR
I wish my M4 weighed 5.9 pounds...not 15.9.
Guess I just need to get stronger...:lifter
:p
It's an M16A2 style sight.
The Army used the M4 for almost a decade without having a round suited for it's barrel length and twist, giving the "ice pick" effect up hitting a human target. Only recently did the Mk 262 give adequate lethality. Just in time for SOCOM to select a new rifle.:confused:
It has a chrome-lined bore, and modified feed ramps cut into the upper...
Current M4 is 3rd burst, M4A1 has the fun button....
Original ones used the A2 upper receiver...
It's early on saturday. I'll come up with some better stuff once I've had my coffee.
Roguish Lawyer
03-15-2006, 17:08
It's early on saturday. I'll come up with some better stuff once I've had my coffee.
It is now Wednesday. :munchin
It is now Wednesday. :munchin
Ghost Recon came out for XBOX 360 this week. My priorities have shifted from real weapons to digital ones.
There's some grand iriony in a 10 year old playing as an SF guy slaying a bunch of real SF guys online...
The Reaper
03-15-2006, 20:07
Ghost Recon came out for XBOX 360 this week. My priorities have shifted from real weapons to digital ones.
There's some grand iriony in a 10 year old playing as an SF guy slaying a bunch of real SF guys online...
I don't know any SF guys with the spare time to play online games.
Are you sure?
TR
I wish I didn't have time boss. There's about 20 of us sitting here at SWC waiting for DA to get our orders to us so we can go to group. I've been sitting here since November 2005, healthy as a horse, chomping at the bit. Last thing I wanna do right now is sit here playing games when I could be going to schools or on deployment. If it wasn't for some of the folks I've met here and at SOCnet, I doubt anyone we'd be going anywhere in the next 6. Hopefully that all sorted out, though.
ETA: It was an SF guy from 3rd group that told me to buy the game...they were glad to have something to replace HALO 2, said it was getting boring.
Right before I retired (was at SFAUC) we went to West Point to shoot with their Pistol Team. We put them thru CMMS and CQB. They were only in their 2nd year there. After two weeks with us they all wanted to go SF. We met the Team who was making the Army Video Game. They asked my opinion. I told them when the men are moving or running in the game the sights need to move or get bigger. Make it more difficult to shoot when the heart rate is up. They actually put it in the game. War is no game but I would never say that the realism of some games out there for computers (X-box/P-Station are garbage). It's just like Simmunitions. A training tool.
Doc...About the M-4 I am not a qualified Armalite Tech.
Reaper
I noted your quote "I don't need to see pictures of AF pogues posing with PJs weapons, gangsta style." and agree, but I've seen plenty of "pogues" in the SF world too...to the point we used to call SF "So Fat". All services have their pogues and AF does not corner the market on them...can we agree on that?
I'm fairly sure you did not imply all AF who are armed are "Pogues" did you?
Gunpig
Reaper had a a concern about one of my comments, which came out wrong cause I'm a dumbassed cherry. I addressed it and we can now move with the topic at hand. Oh yeah, take cover...
M4Guru
Your youth is very obvious.
Years of actual miltary training and exposure will define who you are and what you stand for. Fact is, any SNCO who does not stick up for his troops...regardless of the service branch they serve...is a sack of shit. In viewing many of the Reapers's posts on this site, I believe he is a professional, and accepts that tact...but I suppose we will see.
It's a joint world out there...and getting more joint every day. When someone makes a general "supressive fire" statement concenring someone else's troops, I request clarification.
Gunpig
I was just wanting to steer the topic back to where it belonged, the M4 carbine.
Don't pretend to know me, how youthful I am, or anything about me. You don't. I have quite a bit of "military training and exposure". I have led troops in combat. I am an NCO, and I would never fail my guys if they needed sticking up for. I don't think all AF guys are pogues personally, I'm lucky enough to know a lot of great ones. NDD wanted to know about the rifle, let's keep it to that. I like this forum because it's not 5 pages of pissing contests in each thread. If you have any more issues with how you think I view the world, PM them to me.
The Reaper
03-16-2006, 09:02
Reaper
I noted your quote "I don't need to see pictures of AF pogues posing with PJs weapons, gangsta style." and agree, but I've seen plenty of "pogues" in the SF world too...to the point we used to call SF "So Fat". All services have their pogues and AF does not corner the market on them...can we agree on that?
I'm fairly sure you did not imply all AF who are armed are "Pogues" did you?
Gunpig
GP:
This is not a pissing contest about the services, and will not last long as such. Hope you did not come here to look for fights.
Perhaps you are confusing Special Forces with Security Forces? Surely you can't be comparing the physical conditioning of SF soldiers to AF personnel? Having served in two joint headquarters, I have to tell you, that is pretty funny. Love the once a year walking PT test!
The Air Force is an air service. This is a ground war. All services do have their pogues, but the war right now is being fought on the ground by the Army and Marines. We are paying the price. The air campaign is over and the AF is a supporting service at this point in the war. Those delivering ordnance in the cause on the enemy, regardless of branch of service are no more pogues than our own artillerymen.
AFSOC personnel are doing a great job. The AF as a whole has a disproportionate percentage of tail to teeth as compared to the Army. A quick look at the casualty figures will tell you who is involved and taking risk in personal combat.
Being armed is a condition of supply. Being a warrior is not. If you aren't issued a weapon, there is a reason for that, and yes, I think that pretty much qualifies you as a pogue.
Nothing wrong with being a gas pumper or an admin clerk. We have those too. Be the best cook or clerk in the service. Just don't try to beg a gun off of someone who uses it and pose for cool photos like you are a real gunslinger. Next thing you know, you are showing those pics to the local paper back home and giving interviews.
If you have to borrow a gun to look cool in a photo, IMHO, you are a pogue and a poser. If you think that holding two rifles makes you twice as cool, you are an idiot. I have a lot of PJ and CCT friends who are warriors. If I were to stand beside an AC-130 in a flight suit for a photo, that would not make me a pilot, or even a nav. If I told people that I was, I would be a pogue and a poser. Now a nice pic of me doing a dive off the ramp at altitude, at night, kitted up, would be very cool.
Hope that clears my comments up for you. Did you have anything to add to the M-4 discussion?
Have a very SF day.
TR
Reaper
Thanks for the reply...we are on the same sheet...no urinary Olympics here. Everyone has their fair share of "wannabes" and I acknowledge that. We also have operators who want to "force hero" themselves also...very dangerous...and worse than pouges if they are in a leadership postion.
As for AF PT, it's more active now...the "joke bike" test is gone; replaced with a 1.5 mile run, push-ups, crunches, and a tape measurement. Individual units have more stringent standards also...but that issue does not relate to the M4topic...so I will check fire on this topic.
Gunpig
barney_rubble
03-27-2006, 16:24
What do I know about the M4?
It dislikes most ammunition save M855 Penetrator - we tried UK L2A2 and it gets gas stoppages every 5 rounds
Without all the crap people add to it, it weighs in at a comfortable carry weight
Adding an M203 and an Aimpoint optic is a great combination; why bother with the other crap?
The M4A1 has an improved handguard, because SF in the US claimed the M4 handguard was getting too hot. Perhaps, therefore, the user should be managing his rate of fire more effectively and not bursting.
Everyone is now copying the M4 design
There is a lot of concern about the wound ballistics of the M4 at medium ranges (200m+) and in Afghanistan the weapon has no place in the mountains (the barrel is too short and you need a rifle)
The 16" barrel Diemaco is ten times better, if a little heavier. It was the choice of UK SF over the M4 (too expensive and not as good), the G36 and SG550 (side folding stocks don't work for us).
The rail interface system enables the user to add far too many 'accessories' that add weight, throw out the balance and get in the way.
Too many soldiers now carry M4/M4A1s in Iraq, who should have the M16A2/3/4 rifle (they are Infantrymen afterall).
Personal opinion - it's my weapon of choice over most every other weapon available for its versatility, compactness and reliability. Unfortunately, we thought that Colt had slipped in its quality assurance - thus we chose the Diemaco.
Sorry Colt - thus ended a relationship with the AR15/M16 family back to 1960 when we had them for Borneo. I think the British Army may have had the AR15 before the US Army - isn't that a strange quirk of events?
The Reaper
03-27-2006, 17:19
Your comments would carry more weight if we knew what your background was. Your list also reads more like what you think than what you know.
My M4s have run fine with all of the ammo I have used except for the Wolf. I have shot about a dozen M193 variants, the M855/856, the Mk 262, four match loads, and roughly ten civilian types without a problem. I have not fired any L2A2.
I bother with other "crap" because it gets dark and we have to enter buildings with darkened interiors. We may also want to designate a target, use night vision, or illuminate with IR light. Frequently, I prefer the Trijicon ACOG over the Aimpoint if engagement ranges are likely to exceed 200 m.
You are wrong about SF requiring the double-heatshielded handguards, I do not know where you got that. Thank you for your fire control advice.
Search this site for 5.56 terminal ballistics info if you are interested. The limited range of the M-4 and the M-855 is well known, and has already been discussed, ad nauseum.
You want the Diemaco, fine, I am no fan of Colt's current production either, but I would like to see you quantify the "ten times better" statement. I prefer a hammer forged barrel like the FN variants have, or better yet, the HK 416.
The rail interface is not the problem, leadership is.
The M-4 is superior to the M-16 for CQB and for mounted soldiers. The majority of our engagements in Iraq have been MOUT, not mountain to mountain. In Afghanistan, you may be right.
I think that most of us here would prefer the HK 416 to the M-4, and either to the SA80.
TR
one-zero
03-27-2006, 19:21
My M4s have run fine with all of the ammo I have used except for the Wolf. I have shot about a dozen M193 variants, the M855/856, the Mk 262, four match loads, and roughly ten civilian types without a problem. I have not fired any L2A2.
I bother with other "crap" because it gets dark and we have to enter buildings with darkened interiors. We may also want to designate a target, use night vision, or illuminate with IR light. Frequently, I prefer the Trijicon ACOG over the Aimpoint if engagement ranges are likely to exceed 200 m.
The rail interface is not the problem, leadership is.
The M-4 is superior to the M-16 for CQB and for mounted soldiers. The majority of our engagements in Iraq have been MOUT, not mountain to mountain. In Afghanistan, you may be right.
TR
TR;
I usually stay out of the "pipeline" forum...but wanted to comment since others are weighing in.
-Ammo: as you've found - it pretty much digests it all, the only considerations I usually take concerning selection is what effect do I want on the terminal end...only real problems I've had were with the old keyhole effect you could get from destabilized bullets if the wrong round/barrel twist combo was in play (NB: this was still not a problem at CQC/MOUT engagement range)
-Rail "crap": RGR...I'm from the era when we had to attach Maglites with Hose clamps to our weapons. Vectoring an Apache's gun onto a building/tgt without firing tracers to direct fire makes those small LTDs on the rails is a godsend as well...I don't like people knowing where my OP is at:D
-M4/M16 range: having just a few cbt tours with this weapon system I can say that back in the first gulf war (we had CAR15s) our engagement ranges were as far as 500m and the aimpoint dot covered a good portion of a mans torso - but we were taking 'em out quite well...In my experience during the latest round of tours we have gotten plenty of killing done at range with this system (400-600m) due to squeezing out the wpns capability w/improved sights - the full length m16 is more stable, has alonger barrel and all the advantages/disadvantages that brings(more range etc) but the M4 will more than do the job...beyond the 'average" engagement ranges you may as well switch calibers and plan accordingly...
There was atime when a guy would give his left nut to have CAR15...now every swinging dick has one (M4 is still a CAR15 to me, albeit improved) - and that is absolutely awesome.
regards,
1-0
barney_rubble
03-28-2006, 03:54
Your comments would carry more weight if we knew what your background was. Your list also reads more like what you think than what you know.
My M4s have run fine with all of the ammo I have used except for the Wolf. I have shot about a dozen M193 variants, the M855/856, the Mk 262, four match loads, and roughly ten civilian types without a problem. I have not fired any L2A2.
I bother with other "crap" because it gets dark and we have to enter buildings with darkened interiors. We may also want to designate a target, use night vision, or illuminate with IR light. Frequently, I prefer the Trijicon ACOG over the Aimpoint if engagement ranges are likely to exceed 200 m.
You are wrong about SF requiring the double-heatshielded handguards, I do not know where you got that. Thank you for your fire control advice.
Search this site for 5.56 terminal ballistics info if you are interested. The limited range of the M-4 and the M-855 is well known, and has already been discussed, ad nauseum.
You want the Diemaco, fine, I am no fan of Colt's current production either, but I would like to see you quantify the "ten times better" statement. I prefer a hammer forged barrel like the FN variants have, or better yet, the HK 416.
The rail interface is not the problem, leadership is.
The M-4 is superior to the M-16 for CQB and for mounted soldiers. The majority of our engagements in Iraq have been MOUT, not mountain to mountain. In Afghanistan, you may be right.
I think that most of us here would prefer the HK 416 to the M-4, and either to the SA80.
TR
I agree wholeheartedly that SA80 is an awful weapon; I've suffered it since 1987 when we received them in Northern Ireland and were told to hand in our SLRs and the M16A1/M203 over and unders we carried in South Armagh. No one wanted to give up the 203s, because SA80 did not come with a grenade launching option - it took 5 years before a muzzle launched grenade was introduced and those played hell with the weapons.
Why is the Diemaco 10x better than the M4: Quality and the Barrel. Indeed the superficial design of it is highly similar, the differences appear once you get inside the weapon and look at the features package. Diemaco had made M16 lookalikes under license for years, but they tore that weapon apart and understood its flaws; which were at a core engineering level. Indeed the majority of the features that Colt 'borrowed' to add onto the M4A1 SOPMOD were already on the Diemaco, which was why it was 10x better.
The ammunition problem with L2A2: propellant shape. Do you recall the scandal when the M16 was issued for the first time and the Government changed the propellant specifications, resulting in carbon deposits inside the rifle and the subsequent nightmares of un-clearable stoppages? When we received the M4, we didn't get the information that it dislikes L2A2 Ball (UK Governemnt issue). On a task in Africa we were cursing the M4s because of the gas stoppages; we changed the gas rings in the bolt and it became marginally better, but the ejected cases were limping out of the receiver.
The problem was fired at the Boffins, who concluded it was the ammunition because when you fed it M855 it fired all day.
Now unlike the US where numerous brands of ammunition fly around, we go with what we get and if that was L2 we were screwed.
I agree with your comment vis a vis the ACOG; UKSF chose this over the Aimpoint for a simpler reason - batteries.
I disagree with your comments regarding rifle use in MOUT, unless your soldiers have a rifle available as well? M16 Rifle is not a long weapon, and to qualify I'd like to point out that in Berlin the British Army we regarded as the masters of MOUT - everyone would come to see the skills and train with us. Berlin, at that time during the cold war, was our MOUT honing ground and we trained incessantly using SLR; some people had Sterling SMG but given that the range envelope might be 5 metres to 500 metres we needed a rifle.
The same situation exists in Iraq now.
zeroalpha
03-28-2006, 22:55
Check your PM's Barney.
Also - word of advice, LISTEN to what those who run this place ask of you.
It seems that you know some "stuff" but what you do know doesnt seem to balance out.
Lets chat on PM huh.
airbornediver
05-10-2006, 17:37
I'm not an 18b, or an 18 series for that matter, however, since I'm all about learning things, I went researching on the M4 to find out more that what I knew about the weapon (which is relavtively little, given the very small amount of time in which I've held or fired one.)
so here's what I found.
that the M4 fires the 5.56x45mm NATO round, which is equivalent to the .223 remington round; its weight without the magazine is 5.9 pounds, with an empty 30 round magazine it weighs around 6.15 pounds, with a full 30 round magazine it weighs around 6.9 pounds; with the stock retracted its about 29.8 inches in length, and without the stock retracted its 33 inches in length; it has a 14.5 inch barrel length. The bore characteristics are as follows; hard chrome lined; 6 lands and groves; 1 twist in 7 inches going to the right hand. Its gas operated with a locking bolt. the muzzle velocity is 2900 ft/sec; the muzzle energy is around 1645 Joule. It has an effective range of 600 meters, adjustable front sight, adjustable rear size for windage and elevation to 600 meters. the sight radius is 14.5 inches; the cyclic rate of fire is 700-950 rpm; it has safe, semi, and full auto/burst selector switch (depending on "A" model).
that's about it.
if I'm not suspossed to be posting here, then sorry, I was just posting info that I learned, and if anything, at least now I know it.
NousDefionsDoc
05-12-2006, 15:10
I better start learning something I don't know from the Sluggos on here or there's going to be a batch of banned asses...
Just kidding, I would never do that, just ask anyone that knows me.
Roguish Lawyer
05-12-2006, 15:29
Ok Sluggos, tell me everything I need to know about the current M4 weapon system - to include optics.
Refreshing the topic . . .
The Reaper
05-12-2006, 18:13
Refreshing the topic . . .
Counselor:
Do you want to discuss M-4 optical issues on this thread, or do you have a separate question?
TR
Roguish Lawyer
05-13-2006, 07:56
Counselor:
Do you want to discuss M-4 optical issues on this thread, or do you have a separate question?
TR
I am just reading. Refreshed the topic in response to NDD's post.
Surgicalcric
05-13-2006, 16:06
I better start learning something I don't know from the Sluggos on here or there's going to be a batch of banned asses...
Just kidding, I would never do that, just ask anyone that knows me.
Just which of us "Sluggo's are you referring to Sarn't. :D
Crip
NousDefionsDoc
05-13-2006, 16:17
I don't specify Sluggos. They all come from the same puddle.
Surgicalcric
05-13-2006, 16:24
I don't specify Sluggos. They all come from the same puddle.
I will get right on the request Doc, as soon as I am done learing how to fix my team mates, LBG's, and anyone else that may need it, as well as learning to teach the rest of the Sluggo's how to fix themselves and me, in the event I need a medic. lol. :lifter
Crip
I will get right on the request Doc, as soon as I am done learing how to fix my team mates, LBG's, and anyone else that may need it, as well as learning to teach the rest of the Sluggo's how to fix themselves and me, in the event I need a medic. lol. :lifter
Crip
Don't forget...fighter first, fixer second. ;)
Draco771
05-09-2008, 10:30
My background:
Basic Soldiering Skills with MOUT, M4, Confidence Training, and other Basic Soldiering Task Training. That's my extent.
I've trained on the M4A1, M249 SAW (Airborne Varient) M203, MK-19, and M240B.
But my training is only towards BASIC Soldiering Skills.
But my question on the M4A1, is there any way in which you can modify the barrel to increase the accuracy of it, without lengthening it? (I know that for every inch, it makes that many more rotations in the chamber, increasing spin of the round, and accuracy of the bullet.)
And also, are there any magezine modifications that would be a NO-GO for an M4? (Such as making an extended Mag etc. etc.?)
The Reaper
05-09-2008, 10:49
My background:
Basic Soldiering Skills with MOUT, M4, Confidence Training, and other Basic Soldiering Task Training. That's my extent.
I've trained on the M4A1, M249 SAW (Airborne Varient) M203, MK-19, and M240B.
But my training is only towards BASIC Soldiering Skills.
But my question on the M4A1, is there any way in which you can modify the barrel to increase the accuracy of it, without lengthening it? (I know that for every inch, it makes that many more rotations in the chamber, increasing spin of the round, and accuracy of the bullet.)
And also, are there any magezine modifications that would be a NO-GO for an M4? (Such as making an extended Mag etc. etc.?)
Frankly, your nomenclature and understanding of the weapon is atrocious. Where have you received your basic military education? Bullets do not rotate in the chamber, increase spin, or necessarily improve accuracy in a longer barrel.
First, the shooter needs to be able to outshoot the issued rifle and ammo. If not, the rest of this is a waste of ammo, and frankly, most soldiers cannot shoot better than the rifle as issued.
IF you were able to shoot better than the system would allow, a limited number of shooters would benefit from:
1. Use better ammo.
2. Freefloat the handguards.
3. Install a better trigger.
4. Install and train on magnifying optical sights
5. Install a longer barrel to increase muzzle velocity and thus have a flatter trajectory with less compenasation or hold over required.
Longer mags mean more weight, increased feeding problems, reduce your ability to get into a low prone, get caught while getting in and out of vehicles, doing CQB etc. IMHO, a good shooter should not have a problem going 30 rounds between reloads. The M-16 and M-4 users are riflemen, not SAW gunners.
HTH.
TR
I came across this alternate back up sight for the M4/M16 series rifles that after some practice looks promising.
http://www.championgunsights.com/Gunsights_News.htm
Although this may be old news to those of you who attend the SHOT shows (unfortunately I do not meet any of the criteria to attend these :boohoo).
There are also other tritium infused sights on the market such as the sets seen here
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/428560
and http://www.xssights.com/store/tactical.html
Frankly, your nomenclature and understanding of the weapon is atrocious. Where have you received your basic military education? Bullets do not rotate in the chamber, increase spin, or necessarily improve accuracy in a longer barrel.
First, the shooter needs to be able to outshoot the issued rifle and ammo. If not, the rest of this is a waste of ammo, and frankly, most soldiers cannot shoot better than the rifle as issued.
IF you were able to shoot better than the system would allow, a limited number of shooters would benefit from:
1. Use better ammo.
2. Freefloat the handguards.
3. Install a better trigger.
4. Install and train on magnifying optical sights
5. Install a longer barrel to increase muzzle velocity and thus have a flatter trajectory with less compenasation or hold over required.
Longer mags mean more weight, increased feeding problems, reduce your ability to get into a low prone, get caught while getting in and out of vehicles, doing CQB etc. IMHO, a good shooter should not have a problem going 30 rounds between reloads. The M-16 and M-4 users are riflemen, not SAW gunners.
HTH.
TR
Or a gas piston upper. I think the GPU will keep the M4 in the running long after we are gone
Draco771
05-11-2008, 16:23
Question for those who operate the M4 etc...
I've noticed the SOPMOD has a crap load of accessories, are all of them actually needed?
What i mean is, the M4 already weighs roughly 7lbs...
And to my knowledge (and experience on this one) the more stuff you mount onto your M4, the more and more it weighs...
I've always been told best set-up, is an ACOG or Reflex, flashlight, front grip, and that was the max extent you go...
But from what I've noticed with the SOPMOD, there are a lot more things that are put onto the M4...
I have no experience using an M4 with anything else, other then the above listed items... So I have no experience witha ny of the other gadgets...
But is the extra weight actually worth it? And do all of the extra items really make the M4 that much better? NOT talking smack or anything, just wondering about the opinions of those on the board...
Because too my knowledge, it's possible to rack up an M4 to weigh around 30+lbs if enough accessories are added to it... (I've got a pic, I'll see if I can find it... But it essentially was a joke a friend sent me, it's of an M4, with an M203, front grip, five different kind of sniper scopes, two different types of ACOGs, bayonet, two different kinds of flashlights, and the list goes on.... I'll see if I can find it... But it is that pic that got me thinking....)
Peregrino
05-11-2008, 17:46
Question for those who operate the M4 etc...
I've noticed the SOPMOD has a crap load of accessories, are all of them actually needed?
What i mean is, the M4 already weighs roughly 7lbs...
And to my knowledge (and experience on this one) the more stuff you mount onto your M4, the more and more it weighs...
I've always been told best set-up, is an ACOG or Reflex, flashlight, front grip, and that was the max extent you go...
But from what I've noticed with the SOPMOD, there are a lot more things that are put onto the M4...
I have no experience using an M4 with anything else, other then the above listed items... So I have no experience witha ny of the other gadgets...
But is the extra weight actually worth it? And do all of the extra items really make the M4 that much better? NOT talking smack or anything, just wondering about the opinions of those on the board...
Because too my knowledge, it's possible to rack up an M4 to weigh around 30+lbs if enough accessories are added to it... (I've got a pic, I'll see if I can find it... But it essentially was a joke a friend sent me, it's of an M4, with an M203, front grip, five different kind of sniper scopes, two different types of ACOGs, bayonet, two different kinds of flashlights, and the list goes on.... I'll see if I can find it... But it is that pic that got me thinking....)
The SOPMOD kit is an assemblage of accessories intended to allow SOF Soldiers to customize their weapons to meet specific mission requirements. Some of the pieces are mutually exclusive. A little research and some thought would have answered your question without attracting unfavorable attention. Weapons configurations and accessories have already been discussed extensively on this board. Use the search button.
Most of us have seen the picture of Paul Kim (SureFire) with everything mounted on an M-4; you don't need to waste time looking for it.
The Reaper
05-11-2008, 20:31
Question for those who operate the M4 etc...
I've noticed the SOPMOD has a crap load of accessories, are all of them actually needed?
What i mean is, the M4 already weighs roughly 7lbs...
And to my knowledge (and experience on this one) the more stuff you mount onto your M4, the more and more it weighs...
I've always been told best set-up, is an ACOG or Reflex, flashlight, front grip, and that was the max extent you go...
But from what I've noticed with the SOPMOD, there are a lot more things that are put onto the M4...
I have no experience using an M4 with anything else, other then the above listed items... So I have no experience witha ny of the other gadgets...
But is the extra weight actually worth it? And do all of the extra items really make the M4 that much better? NOT talking smack or anything, just wondering about the opinions of those on the board...
Because too my knowledge, it's possible to rack up an M4 to weigh around 30+lbs if enough accessories are added to it... (I've got a pic, I'll see if I can find it... But it essentially was a joke a friend sent me, it's of an M4, with an M203, front grip, five different kind of sniper scopes, two different types of ACOGs, bayonet, two different kinds of flashlights, and the list goes on.... I'll see if I can find it... But it is that pic that got me thinking....)
You seem full of gun questions based on armchair commando type discussions, but are not yet old enough to own a firearm legally, and have not yet joined the military.
Stop posting your questions here. Despite what your teacher may have told you, they are not good questions, or smart ones.
The boards at many other firearms sites seem to enjoy these sort of idle chatter, you might find one of them more to your liking.
Have a very SF day.
TR
The M-4's biggest weakness in my opinion is the cheap magazines the army issues. That and making the troops clear thier own jams instead of raise the hand Sgt my weapon is jammed range mentality we have gotten so into now days.
Rant over :)
Psywar1-0
05-12-2008, 16:12
Ditto on mags, Why the Army dumped money to come up with a prototype new plastic mag instead of going COTS I will never understand.
As to free floats and longer barrels I was just having this discussion with some folks in Bloomfield earlier this month. All free floating and adding 3.5 inches of barrel gets you is 200 more yards of somewhat precision fire. In other words a properly maintained M4 and a SPR shooting Mk262 will shoot neck and neck out to 400. its only out to 600 that the longer barrel and free float give you an advantage.
I have a Mk 12, a brand new M4 and a couple cases of 262 to try and replicate that, but ranges have been the issue here recently.
The M-4's biggest weakness in my opinion is the cheap magazines the army issues. That and making the troops clear their own jams instead of raise the hand Sgt my weapon is jammed range mentality we have gotten so into now days.
Rant over
And the fact that preventative maintenance on the weapon itself let alone the magazines have went the way of the dodo bird among m-day/regular troops.
And the fact that preventative maintenance on the weapon itself let alone the magazines have went the way of the dodo bird among m-day/regular troops.
Thats the fault of NCO's, not the weapon system.
Draco771
05-13-2008, 09:46
The SOPMOD kit is an assemblage of accessories intended to allow SOF Soldiers to customize their weapons to meet specific mission requirements. Some of the pieces are mutually exclusive. A little research and some thought would have answered your question without attracting unfavorable attention. Weapons configurations and accessories have already been discussed extensively on this board. Use the search button.
Most of us have seen the picture of Paul Kim (SureFire) with everything mounted on an M-4; you don't need to waste time looking for it.
My apologies, I didn't mean for the stuff to sound ignorant...
I know a lot of the gear is mission specific on some cases, but it's just looking at some of the SOPMOD things that some servicemen stack up onto it, it just looks crazy...
A Soldier I'm friends with in Naray Afghanistan, was given an opportunity to hold a SOPMOD, and it weighed in at 27lbs when he put it onto a weight scale, he asked the QP why he had so much on it, and the QP said because it looked cool...
He had a taser, laser sight, ACOG, some other scope mounted in front of the ACOG, he just had a bunch of stuff on it... (My friend said it was like something off of Star Wars)
I know he's a conventional Infantryman, and they don't get SOPMODs, but the stuff just really caught my interest...
I apologize for my ignorance...
Most of the stuff I "know" about the M4 is related to what I've read about ballistics and tests comparing the M4 to the HK416 and others in an attempt to replace it.
I have no real experience with any AR series rifle to delve into practical questions... yet.
As for the comment earlier about the .223 round vs the 5.56x45 - The .223 is the civilian equivalent, BUT they are not the same as anyone who knows anything about anything will tell you. The 5.56 is a higher grain round which yields greater pressure. Due to this, the leade and case thickness of the two rounds differ. What does this mean to Joe? The bullet/barrel match is critical in achieving accuracy, range, and lifespan/reliability. Use the designated round for the designated barrel.
I 'think' the issued M4 has a twist rate of 1 in 7, however I could be wrong. I've heard 1 in 8.5 as well. I would however say I'm pretty sure that the twist rate is faster than 1 in 9 to allow better stabilization in higher grain rounds to achieve range and accuracy.
As for flaws? I know the main differences between the 416 and M4 are that the 416 is a Gas-Piston operated rifle as opposed to merely just gas. Yada yada yada... greater reliability all around from practical use to lifespan.
I know most guys that shoot professionally get trigger jobs and free float hand-guards installed, and I see a lot of charging handle products. This would lead me to believe that these areas need attention.
Please enlighten me.
Also as for "rail gear", I would imagine that whatever "gear" is needed to get the job done is used. No more, No less. Whatever the mission requires. If a piece of gear can be utilized and the cost/benefit is positive (in this case cost being weight and space), it probably gets used. If it's unnecessary, leave it at home.
The Reaper
10-13-2009, 15:58
Most of the stuff I "know" about the M4 is related to what I've read about ballistics and tests comparing the M4 to the HK416 and others in an attempt to replace it.
I have no real experience with any AR series rifle to delve into practical questions... yet.
As for the comment earlier about the .223 round vs the 5.56x45 - The .223 is the civilian equivalent, BUT they are not the same as anyone who knows anything about anything will tell you. The 5.56 is a higher grain round which yields greater pressure. Due to this, the leade and case thickness of the two rounds differ. What does this mean to Joe? The bullet/barrel match is critical in achieving accuracy, range, and lifespan/reliability. Use the designated round for the designated barrel.
I 'think' the issued M4 has a twist rate of 1 in 7, however I could be wrong. I've heard 1 in 8.5 as well. I would however say I'm pretty sure that the twist rate is faster than 1 in 9 to allow better stabilization in higher grain rounds to achieve range and accuracy.
As for flaws? I know the main differences between the 416 and M4 are that the 416 is a Gas-Piston operated rifle as opposed to merely just gas. Yada yada yada... greater reliability all around from practical use to lifespan.
I know most guys that shoot professionally get trigger jobs and free float hand-guards installed, and I see a lot of charging handle products. This would lead me to believe that these areas need attention.
Please enlighten me.
Also as for "rail gear", I would imagine that whatever "gear" is needed to get the job done is used. No more, No less. Whatever the mission requires. If a piece of gear can be utilized and the cost/benefit is positive (in this case cost being weight and space), it probably gets used. If it's unnecessary, leave it at home.
You and Draco have a lot of easily verifiable facts mixed up and just plain wrong. I would have to see a 27 lb. M-4.
Stop talking about this, you are making my head hurt.
TR
BMT (RIP)
10-15-2009, 05:39
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/005060.html
Some of the comment's will make your hair hurt.
BMT
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/005060.html
Some of the comment's will make your hair hurt.
BMT
I'm not sure where some of these people are getting there information from. Clearly with how long the M4 and all it's variants have been produced there is nothing about it that is classified information. I will be the first to say I don't know everything about the system but, with having grown up shooting various types of weapons I will say that a GPU (Gas Piston Upper). Along with routine cleaning/maintenance would solve many of the problems that people are complaining about.
My platoon also runs the company arms room. We regularly see half a**ed cleaning jobs from NCO's and their soldiers alike. I've had NCO's complain to me about the standard of cleanliness we uphold. As I see it many NCO's and soldier have become lazy failing to uphold some of the simplest standards.
As far as the M4 goes even the greatest weapons have room for improvement somewhere. Yes with the Gas Impingement System the M4 is one of the dirtiest (carbon fouling) weapons I have used but, that also falls to the type of powder used in our ammunition. It is neither clean nor is it a beautifully performing round. It is cost effective and it does the job plain and simple.
The current variation of the M4 that is being issued now looks like the Army paid some amount of attention to its notes and took the SOPMOD variation down to its base level. A two piece/four rail M1913 picatinny rail hand guard and a spring loaded back up sight comes standard. The back up sight is nothing but, a spring loaded post with a standard M16/M4 type rear sight aperture.
I seem to always have trouble getting use to a new weapon. Once I do get use to it I generally replace the trigger mechanism with something a little more crisp and precise.
Like I said before, I don't know everything about the weapon and I am not sure where some of these people are getting their information from. I have never heard of a 1 in 8.5 twist on any standard issue M4 to my knowledge it's always been 1 in 7 right hand twist. You were right sir after reading that article and it's comments not only does my hair hurt but, everything from my neck up hurts.
p.s. Yes I blew my own horn a bit sorry ahead of time.
Rant Over
Well, I didn't see any of this stuff on here, so I guess I'll put up what I've learned so far about the M4 weapon system (I'm just a dumb Private coming out of Red Phase though, with no prior experience with weapons). I'll try to stick with slightly less obvious things.
1.The M4 that I am using has a maximum listed range for point targets of 500m; I have been told that between 600-700m is also possible. I've only ever hit things at 300m, which is what my rifle is zeroed to, and that was off a sandbag.
2. When I smooth my trigger, I make sure to release slowly and try to listen for a click that lets me know I can pull the trigger again and not have to put as much pressure on.
3. There is enough weight on the front end that when I point post and sprawl I have to pull back pretty hard with my firing hand to keep the butt in my shoulder so I don't end with the muzzle in the dirt, and me in the front leaning rest position.
4. When I clean my M4 the star chamber is always dirty. Always. So is the firing pin, and most of the bolt and bolt carrier assembly.
5. If I am in the prone unsupported position and allow my magazine to rest on the ground, I might be able to hit Fast Freddy. Not much else though. (Not really M4 specific, I just saw an earlier comment about mag length)
6. If I keep my weapon clean, the actual weapon will not fail me. If I get a double feed in my M4 it is usually because my magazine was not seated right or has a spring problem. If SPORTS doesn't work with my M4 my best best is to drop my magazine and try to pull back on my charging handle. If that's stuck, try to pull back and simultaneously stick a couple fingers up inside the magazine well and diddle around. I'd like a QP to give an opinion on this one, cause it makes me nervous.
7. If I am trying to engage targets at range with my M4, I keep my buttstock fully extended.
For the M68:
1. Keep the red dot as low illum as possible. The instruction I was given was to train your eye to the lowest possible light.
2. If your red dot jumps around inside the scope, first assume that your fundamentals are wrong. If you concentrate hard and it still jumps around, your elevation and windage adjustment springs may be screwed up. Don't waste 3 days on the zero range figuring this out, because then you will have to qualify with someone elses weapon, that may or may not be properly zeroed.
3. I prefer to keep both eyes open with targets up to 75m, and close my left eye during my breathing cycle for targets farther than that.
I haven't done MOUT or anything like that yet. I realize that most QPs will just get a laugh out of this. But I figured that since I stumbled into this thread, and I am actually in training now, I was under an imperative to try to give answers. So I did.
PinelandVet66
01-08-2010, 23:42
My team got the daniel defense 10.5 in barrels before our last deployment to the stan and they performed extremely well. Everybody was tagging steel and personnel:) out to 600m no problem. SOPMOD DD upper is Free floating and comes with front flip up site and runs like a champion. Every-time we have a shot out barrel and it fails a gauge, we send it in to get re-barreled. I am not convinced when this process happens anything really gets done. When I got the DD upper I think it was the first time ever in the military I received a brand new barrel which is sad but Im glad it happened a lot of bad guys in the dirt courtesy of those little guys.
My team got the daniel defense 10.5 in barrels before our last deployment to the stan and they performed extremely well. Everybody was tagging steel and personnel:) out to 600m no problem. SOPMOD DD upper is Free floating and comes with front flip up site and runs like a champion. Every-time we have a shot out barrel and it fails a gauge, we send it in to get re-barreled. I am not convinced when this process happens anything really gets done. When I got the DD upper I think it was the first time ever in the military I received a brand new barrel which is sad but Im glad it happened a lot of bad guys in the dirt courtesy of those little guys.
That's a long shot out of a 10.5" barrel........
PinelandVet66
01-11-2010, 21:08
You are right! I had my doubts at first as well but I drove some steel out to that range slapped on my ELCAN optic and sure enough. That Sweet Ping That Everyone Loves To Hear! I was sold!:D
blue02hd
01-12-2010, 07:04
Well, I didn't see any of this stuff on here, so I guess I'll put up what I've learned so far about the M4 weapon system (I'm just a dumb Private coming out of Red Phase though, with no prior experience with weapons). I'll try to stick with slightly less obvious things.
1.The M4 that I am using has a maximum listed range for point targets of 500m; I have been told that between 600-700m is also possible. I've only ever hit things at 300m, which is what my rifle is zeroed to, and that was off a sandbag.
2. When I smooth my trigger, I make sure to release slowly and try to listen for a click that lets me know I can pull the trigger again and not have to put as much pressure on.
3. There is enough weight on the front end that when I point post and sprawl I have to pull back pretty hard with my firing hand to keep the butt in my shoulder so I don't end with the muzzle in the dirt, and me in the front leaning rest position.
4. When I clean my M4 the star chamber is always dirty. Always. So is the firing pin, and most of the bolt and bolt carrier assembly.
5. If I am in the prone unsupported position and allow my magazine to rest on the ground, I might be able to hit Fast Freddy. Not much else though. (Not really M4 specific, I just saw an earlier comment about mag length)
6. If I keep my weapon clean, the actual weapon will not fail me. If I get a double feed in my M4 it is usually because my magazine was not seated right or has a spring problem. If SPORTS doesn't work with my M4 my best best is to drop my magazine and try to pull back on my charging handle. If that's stuck, try to pull back and simultaneously stick a couple fingers up inside the magazine well and diddle around. I'd like a QP to give an opinion on this one, cause it makes me nervous.
7. If I am trying to engage targets at range with my M4, I keep my buttstock fully extended.
For the M68:
1. Keep the red dot as low illum as possible. The instruction I was given was to train your eye to the lowest possible light.
2. If your red dot jumps around inside the scope, first assume that your fundamentals are wrong. If you concentrate hard and it still jumps around, your elevation and windage adjustment springs may be screwed up. Don't waste 3 days on the zero range figuring this out, because then you will have to qualify with someone elses weapon, that may or may not be properly zeroed.
3. I prefer to keep both eyes open with targets up to 75m, and close my left eye during my breathing cycle for targets farther than that.
I haven't done MOUT or anything like that yet. I realize that most QPs will just get a laugh out of this. But I figured that since I stumbled into this thread, and I am actually in training now, I was under an imperative to try to give answers. So I did.
You remind me of this brand new 18B we once got,,,,,,,
Hope I'm asking in the right forum, Has anyone got experience using this optic on their M-4's and if so could I get your feedback. Thank You
Open Target Turrets
Fully Multi-Coated Lenses
Built in sunshade
Quick focus eyepiece
Bullet drop compensator calibrated for the .223 cartridge with a 55 grain bullet
Reticles illuminate in Red or Green with multiple brightness setting
Integrated Quick Release Weaver style/ Picatinny mounting system
SPECIFICATIONS:
MAGNIFICATION: 3X-9X
TUBE DIA. N/A
OBJECTIVE DIA. (MM) 42.00
FOV (FEET AT 100 YARDS) 36.8-12.0
EYE RELIEF (INCH) 2.0
EXIT PUPIL(MM) 9.3-3.1
RETICLE: P4 SNIPER
N.W (OZ.) 16.7
LENGTH (INCH) 7.54
CLICK VALUE : 1/4 M.O.A.
EXTERIOR FINISH: MATTE BLACK
LENS COATING: GREEN
MOUNT:INTEGRATED (WEAVER STYLE QUICK RELEASE)
The Reaper
02-05-2010, 17:50
Communist Chinese POS.
OTOH, it is cheap.
With optics, you generally get what you pay for.
TR
Tegboarder
02-26-2010, 02:27
On Gas - The whole "gas-operated" term has gotten thrown around a couple of times and it's important to clarify that gas systems cover a wide spectrum of operations (gas direct, gas tappet, gas blast). There's nothing necessarily wrong with gas direct systems but the M4 just doesn't have any way to remedy sluggish firing without cleaning out the gas tube. Just as an example, the M240 has a gas regulator that can be adjusted to allow more gas to engage the rod assembly which gives more power to the whole operation of the system. It's a quick fix for which will hold you over until you have the time to remedy the situation 100%. It'd be a great if there was a gas regulator on the M4 that could be quickly adjusted when it starts to get sluggish from carbon build-up.
Back to the .223/5.56 - The lower receiver is stamped with all the manufacturing information to include what the barrel that particular lower came out of the factory mounted to. If it's stamped .223 then it was made to only fire the .223 Remington and firing the hotter burning 5.56 will damage it. If it's stamped 5.56 it will fire both since it's made to handle that hotter burn.
Magazines - The issue magazines are "semi-disposable". Cheap enough to be easily replaceable so that damaged ones could be turned in for new ones without much fuss. The problem is we expect them to last forever. Compare that to the AK-47 mags which are actually made to last a lifetime. Country of origin can tell you a lot about a weapon. On one hand you have the U.S. who weren't worried about spending the extra money to replace something as simple as magazines. On the other hand you have the USSR who would sooner make a more reliable magazine that didn't have to be replaced over and over again in order to save money in the long run.
Misfeeds - The extractor could be failing, leaving the spent round in the chamber and preventing another round from being chambered. There was an issue with the extractor spring on early M4/M16s. It was replaced with the little black donut on later models and the early ones were sent in for the fix.
Magazines and Misfeeds - If you're not getting any misfeeds when the magazine is full but start getting misfeeds toward the end of the magazine it's probably the spring. A full magazine is going to have more tension in the spring compared to a half magazine. There could also be an issue with the follower. It may be beat up and catching inside the magazine which will result in a misfeed. There can also be problems with the lips of the magazine. If the lips are bent or damaged then rounds aren't going to feed properly.
Maintain your magazines and you'll be fine. Stretch out the spring a bit to keep it from "memorizing" it's compressed shape and losing it's tension. Compare the lips of all your magazines and look for inconsistencies. Or if you can afford it just buy plastic magazines. They're durable, light, and the internals are made better as well.
For Soak60 - As far as shoving your fingers into places and diddling around there is only one place that is necessary and it's not your magazine well. If you have to do remedial action then just flip your weapon on its side and LOOK through the ejection port into the chamber. Then you can start fixing it however you need to. If it's something that needs more than a shake and a slap just use a leatherman. Your fingers will thank you.
The "click" - That click is from the disconnector reengaging. Yes, it means you can "pull the trigger again" but listening for that click shouldn't affect the pressure you're applying to the trigger. Unlike the M9, every squeeze of the trigger is the same on the M4. The first shot doesn't set the hammer (like with the M9), charging the weapon does.
Rambling complete.
The Reaper
02-26-2010, 10:43
Tegboarder, I do not see from your intro or profile where you acquired all of your weapons knowledge that you are dispensing.
BTW, it doesn't matter what is stamped on the lower. The barrel is the only part that is different (sometimes) between .223 and 5.56 ARs. The "hotter burn", which is actually higher pressure affects only the barrel. There are other errors in your info.
Are you an 18B now?
TR
Back to the .223/5.56 - The lower receiver is stamped with all the manufacturing information to include what the barrel that particular lower came out of the factory mounted to. If it's stamped .223 then it was made to only fire the .223 Remington and firing the hotter burning 5.56 will damage it. If it's stamped 5.56 it will fire both since it's made to handle that hotter burn.
Rambling complete.
The reason you don't want to fire 5.56 in a 223 is the chamber pressure in the barrel, not because the lower.
This is from DPMS -
DPMS makes either a 5.56 or a .223 chamber.
To verify your chamber, look to the underside of the barrel, forward of the gas block for the barrel stamp. The stamp will indicate your chamber and twist rate. If your barrel is stamped .223, only American made, factory produced .223 ammo should be used.
DPMS does not warranty the use of 5.56 in our .223 chambers.
Because the .223 has a shorter throat to it's chamber than the 5.56, using the higher pressure 5.56 ammo will erode the throat leading to accuracy issues and possible malfunctions over time. The 5.56 chamber with it's longer throat is designed for the higher pressure rounds and will handle the lower pressure .223 without issue.
Joe_Snuffy
02-26-2010, 12:04
While not an 18B [though I do aspire to be one], I decided to toss my hat into the ring and bring up some small M4 related points not mentioned:
The M4A1's selector switch can be set to Safe, Semi or Auto , while the M4 [note the lack of additional annotations to the model number] comes only with Safe, Semi, or Burst [3 rounds].
Anyone who is particularly tall, or just has long arms in general will have some trouble adjusted to the weapon's shortened size in comparison to the M16. Being 6' myself I've found that in the end just holding the magazine well paid off more than finding a comfortable place to grip the rails.
For those who have never tried it, installing the upper rail is a pain if you're not paying attention due to a small forked bracket who's forks sit on either side of the gas tube and hooks up into the star shaped ring in front of the hand guard retention springs. The easiest method to get it to slip into place uses gravity or a small object [like a thin pen, or small screwdriver] to nudge it into place. Because of the difficulty to install the upper rail system and the likelihood of damage from incorrect installations by users has led to the directive that user-level maintenance does not permit the removal of the upper rail system.
Because of the carry-over of the Picatinny Rail System to the M4 nearly all accessories designed for use the M16 are compatible with the M4.
Personally I've found both the M16 and M4 to be fairly decent weapons on the range when using standard-issue ball ammo [and with the proper amount of elbow grease applied to keep it clean], as for combat I can't attest for either one's attributes due to never managing to be in direct contact with the enemy [I did receive a regular showering of mortars/rockets my last deployment. Honestly rain is better, even if it leaves that syrupy mud in it's wake] so I'll leave that to those who have.
Tegboarder
02-26-2010, 13:15
To clarify on the lower receiver stamping I am not saying that the round you fire will affect the lower receiver; but if you are looking at a complete factory weapon with a lower and upper that were paired together, then the stamp on the magazine well is referring to the chamber on the upper. I wasn't aware of a stamp on the underside of the barrel. That being the case it's a better place to check that you are using the right ammo considering you are not always going to be looking at an upper and a lower that were made together.
TR, I finished the course back in May. I'll update the profile right now.
The Reaper
02-26-2010, 13:56
Not only does the barrel have the caliber/chamber markings, it also tells you the manufacturer, if the barrel was magnetic particle inspected, and if it is chrome lined.
TR
greenberetTFS
07-10-2010, 12:33
AP news reports that the Army is going to rely on the M-110 sniper rifle because the effective shooting range is more than 2,500 feet,while the M-4 range is under 1,000.......... :confused: Don't jump on the messenger now,I'm just reporting the latest news by AP.................;)
Big Teddy :munchin
Some excellent posts here, hidden amongst the derails. I have to admit Im old and set in my ways and have resisted the M4, mainly over barrel length. But reading posts like one zero's and many others from those who have actually used the weapon downrange is changing my mind. I tend to believe people who's lives have depended on the performance of a weapon over those shooting jello. I still love my triangle guard M16A1, but now Im thinking I need to add an M4 to the collection and find a range with some 600 meter lanes. The biggest problem I have seen with the M16 family during its long service, using the wrong ammo for the current design. We started off that way, and apparently needed to learn that lesson more than once.
Oldschool45B
07-13-2010, 11:38
OK, even DPMS could not explain it right. Here is some information I gathered from various sources, including a gent who may pop in here from time to time, :D the 45B class and the fine folks at Crane. Funny how the real experts all say the same thing about the 5.56 and .223 differences.
Can you fire 5.56 in a .223? Well, in short yeah you can. Are there issues with it, well maybe so..... Will it blow your gun apart and send pieces of the gun thru your brain housing group, probably not. But lets take a look at what the issues are for reals.
First of all there are three major types of AR chambers. The .223 SAMMI, the .223 Wylde and the 5.56 NATO. It's all so crazy and convoluted that we will skip right to the point of it all and look at it in layman's terms.
The real issues are the case neck, free bore length, throat angle and headspace. Now what do they each mean?
Case neck- Thats where the bullet sits in the case.
Free bore length- Thats the length between cases end and where the lands and groove start. This is where the bullet is actually free in the bore when it leaves the case. This affects the pressure of the round as the lands and grooves cause pressure to build behind the bullet.
Throat angle- This is the angle of slope where the free bore ends and transitions into the lands and grooves.
Headspace- This is the depth of the chamber
Now the headspace on all chambers is the same at 1.4636, so that is a non issue. The throat angle is significantly different though, 3 degrees for the SAMMI and 1.25 degrees for the other two. How does this affect you? It makes the pressure in the SAMMI start quicker as the pressure against the round is applied more abruptly.
Free bore length is a big issue in the three. The free bore for the SAMMI is a mere .025, the Wylde is .062 and the 5.56 NATO is .057. What does that mean? It means that the SAMMI builds pressure a lot faster than the Wylde or NATO chambers. Add this to the fact that NATO rounds are already a few hundred feet per second faster and as much as 5,000 PSI higher in pressure and you have an issue building rapidly. As is the pressure.
Does this mean that your gun is going to explode by using NATO ammo in your .223, probably not. They are massively over engineered and generally pretty safe for these kinds of things. I personally have fired thousands and thousands of NATO rounds in a .223 chamber. They are designed to take pressure spikes and if God blows the weapon up in your face, he is pissed at you and you would have gotten screwed some other way if you had not been shooting at the time. But it is NOT recommended all the same.
Thanks again to all the sources that helped me compile this info.
greenberetTFS
07-13-2010, 23:34
AP news reports that the Army is going to rely on the M-110 sniper rifle because the effective shooting range is more than 2,500 feet,while the M-4 range is under 1,000.......... Don't jump on the messenger now,I'm just reporting the latest news by AP.................;)
Big Teddy :munchin
No one as yet answer the question of the M-110 replacing the M-4 and why,do all you agree? :confused:
Big Teddy :munchin
Irishsquid
07-14-2010, 00:31
No one as yet answer the question of the M-110 replacing the M-4 and why,do all you agree? :confused:
Big Teddy :munchin
No idea if Army is actually looking at the M110 as a replacement, per se, but my take is as follows: bad idea.
While the weapon has a considerably longer range, and more power, it seems, in my very limited experience, to be very finicky. Dirt in the upper of an M16/M4 causes problems...a piece of dust in the upper of the M110 seems to cause stoppages. Tolerances are too tight. It would be like taking a bench-rest gun into combat.
The M110 is a very "purpose-built," weapon, and certainly not a battle rifle. An AR-10 or SR-25 might be a better bet, but I have no direct experience with those at all.
In summary, I think the advantages of more power and better accuracy would fail to outweigh the disadvantage of massively reduced reliability in the hands of the average soldier, who won't be carrying it in a drag bag to keep it clean until it needs to be used.
Awaiting discussion.
incarcerated
07-14-2010, 01:05
Does this mean that your gun is going to explode by using NATO ammo in your .223, probably not. They are designed to take pressure spikes and if God blows the weapon up in your face, he is pissed at you and you would have gotten screwed some other way if you had not been shooting at the time.
Oh, so THAT was the problem…! :D:
The Reaper
07-14-2010, 07:16
No one as yet answer the question of the M-110 replacing the M-4 and why,do all you agree? :confused:
Big Teddy :munchin
Not interchangable, not suitable for a one-for-one replacement.
TR
DJ Urbanovsky
07-14-2010, 08:45
Uhhhhh... The M110 and the SR-25 are essentially the same rifle. Both are built by Knights.
The M110 is a very "purpose-built," weapon, and certainly not a battle rifle. An AR-10 or SR-25 might be a better bet, but I have no direct experience with those at all.
Oldschool45B
07-14-2010, 10:50
And with a piss poor sustained rate of fire. If the Army began to phase in the M110 to replace the M4 (and this is laughable as they are both built for a reason, and those reasons don't even come close to being remotely the same other than shooting people) it would be one of the most colossal mistakes in military history. Look at the problems that were experienced in Wanat with high sustained rates of fire in the M4 (added to piss poor user level maintenance) and the issues we had when we took the M110 down range. Broken pieces everywhere. In less than 90 days I had 2/3rds dead lined and could not get replacement parts. The Marines got theirs, found accuracy to be unacceptable and reliability was horrid. So they dropped them last I heard.
I have one of the original SASS rifles built by DPMS for the military contract and the Ops Inc can for it and it runs circles around our M110s in both accuracy and reliability departments. How Knights got the award for the rifle contract is beyond me. But I do seem to remember and investigation about that.....
If the Army wanted to bring back a 308 battle rifle, they already have them and we see them coming back more and more. I just finished teaching a DMR class for a bunch of engineers that got issued the EBR as part of their deployment kit, and when we were done with them in a weeks time these guys who are nothing special when it comes to shooting were making 600m head shots regularly in 4 knot full value winds. They could engage larger targets (3X3) out to 1275 with 3 of 4 shots. the weapon works, why mess with a good thing by bringing in a POS.
Irishsquid
07-14-2010, 19:08
Uhhhhh... The M110 and the SR-25 are essentially the same rifle. Both are built by Knights.
Agreed. Clearly, my mind was elsewhere.
Draco771
08-17-2010, 20:21
The M110 is a cheaper SDM Rifle.
I know this, because a High School friend who's with the 82nd is using it as a DSM.
It's cheaper, and easier to manufacture compared to an M14 EBR.
It's also easier to train on, since it's relatively the same AR 15 style American troops are already familiar with. It's an off the shelf grab and go, with 80% compatibility aside from calibre to an M16/M4 series rifle in use. (i.e. you don't need additional training to just pick it up, go into a fire fight, and come back, SPORTS works the same for it, as any other AR 15 style weapon)
Unlike the SR-25, the M110 also has built in iron-sights. Meaning if crap hit the fan, you can go straight to the irons, just like an M4 if your ACOG went FUBAR.
For recon teams, (like that my friend is on) the M110 can have a suppressor mounted on it, or interchange barrel with one built in. Just like the M4.
The M110 also has a rail system, which is compatible with all components used for an M4 rail systems. (Lasers, lights, stun guns, Cherry blasters [don't ask] etc.)
And, unlike the SR-25, the M110 can be mounted onto a tripod, or even an HMMWV for a more stable fireing platform with the proper component mounted onto the lower rail system. (not that it's very practicle)
M110 I've been looking to learn a great deal about.
Also, the M110 is due to replace the M14 EBR in both regular, and airborne units.
I don't know how popular it is with the SOF community, however.
Just a reply to the question asked.
Note: unlike the EBR, the M110 is also ambidextrous, and it's buttplace can be modified to extend or come closer in.
Compared to other SDM rifles, the M110 takes top place in modularity.
Soldiers I've spoken with in the 1-161st when they deployed never had any issues at all with it. (even when they took it to the field, the guys using it had said they prefered it over the EBR)
The Reaper
08-17-2010, 20:31
The M110 is a cheaper SDM Rifle.
I know this, because a High School friend who's with the 82nd is using it as a DSM.
It's cheaper, and easier to manufacture compared to an M14 EBR.
It's also easier to train on, since it's relatively the same AR 15 style American troops are already familiar with. It's an off the shelf grab and go, with 80% compatibility aside from calibre to an M16/M4 series rifle in use. (i.e. you don't need additional training to just pick it up, go into a fire fight, and come back, SPORTS works the same for it, as any other AR 15 style weapon)
Unlike the SR-25, the M110 also has built in iron-sights. Meaning if crap hit the fan, you can go straight to the irons, just like an M4 if your ACOG went FUBAR.
For recon teams, (like that my friend is on) the M110 can have a suppressor mounted on it, or interchange barrel with one built in. Just like the M4.
The M110 also has a rail system, which is compatible with all components used for an M4 rail systems. (Lasers, lights, stun guns, Cherry blasters [don't ask] etc.)
And, unlike the SR-25, the M110 can be mounted onto a tripod, or even an HMMWV for a more stable fireing platform with the proper component mounted onto the lower rail system. (not that it's very practicle)
M110 I've been looking to learn a great deal about.
Also, the M110 is due to replace the M14 EBR in both regular, and airborne units.
I don't know how popular it is with the SOF community, however.
Just a reply to the question asked.
Draco-
You are not qualified to answer questions on this forum.
Stop posting. Take a year off.
Your incessant yammering on a number of threads where you are either a student of a subject or heard "facts" from someone else is highly annoying.
When that isn't enough, you start new ones.
This isn't military.com.
We are not your buddies.
You are adding little, if anything to the board.
And frankly, I could not care less what you think or what you heard.
Don't PM me. Just use this time wisely to gather some real world facts and better yourself. If/when you post again, it better be well-searched and restricted to an area where you are an expert, or you better be asking a REALLY good question.
There are not going to be any more warnings or hints.
TR
Gentleman,
I apologize for not creating a new thread, but since this was supposed to be everything you need to know about the m4 I thought this was an appropriate place to ask a question.
I've been on the fence about it for awhile and I finally decided to take the plunge and purchase an AR. Upper and lower receivers are BCM, as soon as the hand guards come in I'll put a picture of it in the gun thread for critique :)
I'm honestly a little embarrassed that I don't know, but seeing as how this is a brand new, never been fired rifle ; are there any precautions I should take before, during, and after firing outside of the normal cleaning and lubricating? The charging handle seems pretty rough to pull and I feel like it sounds like there's more metal on metal contact that I'd like, but I'm assuming that's because it only has the light coat that it was shipped in and I have yet to apply a coat of CLP.
Maybe I'm thinking too much like an engine (with all the internal compression), but the first time I take her out to zero and shoot should I stop off after a X rounds or so? Kind of thinking along the lines of how you should keep the RPMs in a vehicle down until after a certain mileage to let all the internals to settle. Then again I might be over analyzing and all that might be required is the same regular maintenance taught back in basic. I fully appreciate any guidance.
Regards,
Fonzy
Iraqgunz
10-13-2010, 00:29
I know Paul and I know that his quality is GTG. Having said that I would clean the weapon and do a cursory inspection. Don't be afraid to read the manual.
I recommend Slip2000 or Weaponshield for lube. CLP is crap and I only use to clean rust or crap off of weapons. I also recommend that you generously lube the weapon. If you keep lubing it and run it wet not only will it keep running but it will make it easier to clean when the time comes. I clean very seldom to be honest. I generally just do a wipe down and relube it.
Gentleman,
I apologize for not creating a new thread, but since this was supposed to be everything you need to know about the m4 I thought this was an appropriate place to ask a question.
I've been on the fence about it for awhile and I finally decided to take the plunge and purchase an AR. Upper and lower receivers are BCM, as soon as the hand guards come in I'll put a picture of it in the gun thread for critique :)
I'm honestly a little embarrassed that I don't know, but seeing as how this is a brand new, never been fired rifle ; are there any precautions I should take before, during, and after firing outside of the normal cleaning and lubricating? The charging handle seems pretty rough to pull and I feel like it sounds like there's more metal on metal contact that I'd like, but I'm assuming that's because it only has the light coat that it was shipped in and I have yet to apply a coat of CLP.
Maybe I'm thinking too much like an engine (with all the internal compression), but the first time I take her out to zero and shoot should I stop off after a X rounds or so? Kind of thinking along the lines of how you should keep the RPMs in a vehicle down until after a certain mileage to let all the internals to settle. Then again I might be over analyzing and all that might be required is the same regular maintenance taught back in basic. I fully appreciate any guidance.
Regards,
Fonzy
Gentleman,
I apologize for not creating a new thread, but since this was supposed to be everything you need to know about the m4 I thought this was an appropriate place to ask a question.
I've been on the fence about it for awhile and I finally decided to take the plunge and purchase an AR. Upper and lower receivers are BCM, as soon as the hand guards come in I'll put a picture of it in the gun thread for critique :)
I'm honestly a little embarrassed that I don't know, but seeing as how this is a brand new, never been fired rifle ; are there any precautions I should take before, during, and after firing outside of the normal cleaning and lubricating? The charging handle seems pretty rough to pull and I feel like it sounds like there's more metal on metal contact that I'd like, but I'm assuming that's because it only has the light coat that it was shipped in and I have yet to apply a coat of CLP.
Maybe I'm thinking too much like an engine (with all the internal compression), but the first time I take her out to zero and shoot should I stop off after a X rounds or so? Kind of thinking along the lines of how you should keep the RPMs in a vehicle down until after a certain mileage to let all the internals to settle. Then again I might be over analyzing and all that might be required is the same regular maintenance taught back in basic. I fully appreciate any guidance.
Regards,
Fonzy
I HIGHLY receomend getting a CAT M4 tool. Cleaning the bolt assembly and the inside of the bolt carrier group will be way easier with this tool and it does the best job (in my opinion) compared to anyting else I have ever tried. You can google where to buy one, or you can try www.brownelles.com... I believe that is where I bought mine.