View Full Version : Conventional Warhead Trident Proposal
By Ann Scott Tyson
(c) 2006, The Washington Post
WASHINGTON — The Pentagon, seeking a faster way to thwart threats
from hostile states or terrorist groups, is asking Congress for $500
million to create a new force of conventionally armed, long-range
missiles capable of striking anywhere in the world within an hour
after an order is given, a senior defense official said Tuesday.
The initiative would convert 24 Trident missiles armed with nuclear
warheads into rockets carrying conventional warheads and begin
fielding them by 2008. The missiles would be launched from submarines
and could hit targets 5,000 to 6,000 miles away within 10 yards, the
official said.
A primary advantage, defense officials say, is that it would offer
U.S. leaders a conventional alternative to nuclear weapons in a
distant crisis where speed is essential. They acknowledge a major risk
is that other nations could conceivably misinterpret a conventional
missile attack as a nuclear strike.
“Will it be interpreted as having a nuclear warhead and elicit ...
a nuclear response?” asked the senior defense official, acknowledging
the potential “ambiguity” of the weapon if detected by early-warning
systems. Such systems may not be able to determine if an incoming
warhead is conventional or nuclear.
The worrisome scenario, he said, “is that they do see it, then
they misinterpret it,” he told a meeting of defense reporters. The
officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because they had not yet
briefed Congress.
The senior defense official said the Pentagon seeks to open a
debate on the benefits and risks of the proposed conventional
ballistic missiles and publicize them as a potential deterrent.
“We’ve done the testing” and developed one of two conventional
warheads planned, he said.
Nuclear experts said they share concerns acknowledged Tuesday by
the senior official, saying the possibility for confusion would be
high because U.S. submarines capable of launching the missiles could
be armed with conventional and nuclear varieties.
“If we did end up in a crisis where things were really tense, this
decision about what is coming at you could be essential,” said Hans
Kristensen, director of the nuclear information project at the
Federation of American Scientists, an arms-control think tank.
The proposed capability, called “prompt global strike,” is needed
to address threats — such as terrorist groups and underground weapons
stocks and military facilities — that have proliferated and for which
nuclear weapons are “not appropriate” because they are too powerful
and inflict high civilian casualties, the official said.
He said the conventional ballistic missiles could penetrate the
ground deeper than other conventional weapons, making it a possible
alternative to another proposal for building a “bunker buster”
nuclear weapon designed to go three or four yards into the earth and
propagate a shock wave.
With estimated flight times of 12 to 24 minutes, the conventionally
armed missiles could be used quickly against a remote and fleeting
“terrorist stronghold” or against a nation threatening a neighbor
with a missile attack — targets that could take many hours, days, or
weeks to reach with cruise missiles, bombers or ground forces, he
said.
AP-NY-03-07-06 2119EST
_______________________________
-Seth
I think the whole world knows the US will not be the first with a nuclear strike.
I think most of the bad guys also know, because of we know who, we would have a hard time with a nuclear retaliation strike. Too many "give peace another chance" people in the US.
Me? I just love anther tool the military can pull out of it's tool box if needed.
My friend's first response was:
"Well Yuri, don't worry about it... you'll know which warhead is which soon enough..."
:D
Solid
The Reaper
03-09-2006, 11:18
At $20,000,000 each TO CONVERT them (plus the intial cost of the missile), I hope that the targets are worthy.:rolleyes:
TR
I think they're trying yo justify the cost of the Ohio Class Subs. Maybe the answer is moth balls/
At $20,000,000 each TO CONVERT them (plus the intial cost of the missile), I hope that the targets are worthy.:rolleyes:
TR
At $29.1 million for the Trident, I must say that the original configuration gave more bang for the buck.
(This does not make practical sense to me.)
Martin
I think the whole world knows the US will not be the first with a nuclear strike
I'm not getting into politics and am not any kind of activist but you must realize that there are those who will point out that we WERE the first and only ones to use nuclear weapons.
I'm not getting into politics and am not any kind of activist but you must realize that there are those who will point out that we WERE the first and only ones to use nuclear weapons.
You are right, we were the first and the second. But the civilized world learned what a terrible weapon it was. The US and USSR stared each other in the eye for something like 25 years and never pushed the button because both understood the Hell that would be unleashed.
The Islamic countries would not be under such restraint. Killing infidels is A-OK and if any believers get toasted, well, in-sha-alla.
None of the old Polaris boats are still active as such and I think even the SSBN's that were converted to SEAL delivery platforms have been decommed (Polk and Kamehameha?) Polaris might have been a cheaper alternative. The SSN-21 class fast boats were discontinued after only 2 hulls were commissioned due primarily to their tremendous cost. Submarines ain't cheap. 20 million per is a hell of an expensive back fit. On the other hand, would it be worth it to have a weapon with that kind of reach that can be deployed in such a short amount of time? If they backfit the Trident II thats 288 MIRVs unless the backfit ups the capacity of the missile.
The Reaper
03-10-2006, 09:19
If they backfit the Trident II thats 288 MIRVs unless the backfit ups the capacity of the missile.
I do not think they would MIRV a conventional warhead, plus it would further complicate decision making among those who have launch detection and tracking capabilities and their own ICBMs.
TR
Bunker busters. The current MIRV'ed warhead suite includes inert ballistic penetrators that smash the rock and a follow-on fission-fusion-fission warhead that exploits it. We've got 'em, Russkies got 'em, Brits got 'em, etc. That's how Cheyanne Mountain would get taken out. Replace the depleted uranium with tungsten carbide (so the issue isn't confused) and the mushrooms with conventional explosives and Iran has problems. The missile cost is cheap compared with the possiblity of losing one of those $2bn B-2 bombers.
The Reaper
03-10-2006, 09:33
Okay, then you still really do not have 288 MIRVs per boat, capable of striking 288 separate targets.
TR
I understand that for bunker busting the blast propagation abilities of MIRVs could (would?) be unnecessary. I don't understand the second part of your post :
"plus it would further complicate decision making among those who have launch detection and tracking capabilities and their own ICBMs."
Good post mugwump.
With a backfit of 24 missiles to conventional that would fill one Ohio class boat with 4 left over. I would think the conventional warheads would be sprinkled around the fleet. If each missile contained a single warhead that would indeed be expensive and more subject to destruction by an ABM.
The Reaper
03-10-2006, 09:52
I don't understand the second part of your post :
"plus it would further complicate decision making among those who have launch detection and tracking capabilities and their own ICBMs."
Good post mugwump.
I mean that it IMHO, for the watch officer in the Russian equivalent of NORAD, it would be less threatening and confusing to see a single SLBM launch with a clear trajectory into a nearby rogue nation than to see it with a dozen blips per launch vehicle spread out, some with the potential to track into Russian territory. I don't think anyone believes that the US would launch a strategic attack with a single vehicle.
IIRC, MIRVs changed the nuclear balance significantly when they first appeared.
TR
I should have waited a moment as I got your meaning after further consideration as to why it would complicate things for the opposition. Thanks for the reply.
IIRC SALT originally limited the number of missiles not the number of warheads. Its been a long time.
The Reaper
03-10-2006, 10:33
I should have waited a moment as I got your meaning after further consideration as to why it would complicate things for the opposition. Thanks for the reply.
IIRC SALT originally limited the number of missiles not the number of warheads. Its been a long time.
SALT II, agreed to in 1974, limited the sides to 1,320 equal aggregate limit on MIRV systems.
TR
Thanks TR. What I remember came from submarine qualification 25 years ago and its hazy.
As Usual The Washington Post is wrong or behind the times. This makes a lot more sense, and the Ohio is already converted and another three are on the way:
Spec Ops Have New Home At Sea
Sub Converted From Nuclear Threat To SEAL Delivering Strategic Force
NAVY TIMES 13 FEB 06
By Andrew Scutro
ABOARD THE USS OHIO — Ohio lurks 60 miles inside Washington. Submerged at periscope depth in 40 fathoms of water, the Navy's newly converted guided-missile submarine stalks Whidbey Island, north of Seattle, from deep inside the Strait of Juan de Fuca.
Invisible, Ohio's advantage is obvious. Peeping at Whidbey Island through his periscope from 12,000 yards offshore, Ohio skipper Cmdr. Michael Cockey can make out the island bluffs beyond a stormy haze.
Modern submarines, including massive fleet ballistic missile submarines, have long been able to sneak close to shorelines undetected. However, the Ohio and three former boomers now under conversion deliver addition-al capability.
They can launch people and Tomahawk missiles, not nuclear warheads. "The added benefit is we can bring Special Forces with us, and they can carry out strikes with the intelligence we get," Cockey said.
In a real-world scenario, Cockey and his crew can stay underwater for about as long as he wants, conducting long term surveillance missions, intercepting signal traffic from shore and waiting for targets to form. They can also launch a clandestine SEAL reconnaissance mission or a missile strike. Or both.
Cockey's boss, Squadron 19 commodore Capt. Derek Hesse, is also in the control room, checking the ship's position and reveling in the possibilities.
He knows a lethal, watchful warship has arrived, with no one above the waves any wiser.
"Other surface ships can't go in there that close to hostile countries," Hesse said.
Rejoining the fleet
On Feb. 7, Ohio formally returns to service after being reconfigured from a ballistic-missile submarine to an SSGN. After a series of evaluations and further modifications, it will deploy in late 2007.
The first of the Ohio-class boomers, the 25-year-old boat was set to be scrapped. Now, Ohio and the next three boats in the class — Michigan, Florida and Georgia — will see another 20 years of service as special operations/guided missile strike boats.
The Navy plans to spend $4 billion to convert all four boats. The last in line, Georgia, returns to the fleet in September 2007.
They will be forward deployed and manned with alternating blue and gold crews of 15 officers and 139 enlisted sailors. An 0-6 will captain the boat.
Ohio will work out of Guam and Florida will be forward-based in Diego Garcia in 2008, according to current plans.
Rear Adm. Frank Drennan commands Submarine Group 9 at Naval Base Kitsap Bangor.
"They'll be at sea a majority of the time because that's where they belong," Drennan said during a media embark Jan. 29.
Under the current deployment schedule, ships will spend 100 days in a U.S. home port, then deploy for 73-day cruises with 21-day upkeep periods at the forward base between each cruise.
"When it leaves, it's gone almost a year," Drennan said.
With the Navy pushing surface combatants further into the world's "green water" coastal areas with vessels like the Littoral Combat Ship, the new SSGNs will also operate close to the beach. It's a dramatic shift from their former duty: poised for nuclear apocalypse in the dark depths of the world's oceans.
Reconfiguring for SEALs At the heart of SSGN's newness is the conversion of its 24 Trident missile tubes. The twotubes closest to the sail have been reconfigured as lock-in/lock-out chambers for special operations forces.
The other 22 tubes can be loaded with seven Tomahawk land attack missiles apiece. The maximum missile strike load: 154. If a larger special operations mission is anticipated, 15 tubes can be packed with 105 Tomahawks and the unarmed tubes can be used to stow SEAL ordnance and gear.
And depending on the configuration, swimmers can either pass straight through the two lockout hatches into the sea, up through the same hatches into a dry deck shelter or, if it gets fully developed, into a minisub known as an Advanced SEAL Delivery System.
During Ohio's two-year conversion, the landing deck was flared out four feet on each side to accommodate two dry deck shelters or ASDS.
Standing at the top of a converted tube; with the hatch above the only barrier to the sea, Cmdr. Claude Lim looks like he's standing inside a silo with shower heads. Lim, a SEAL, comes from Naval Special Warfare Group 3 in San Diego, which specializes in operating from the current model minisub.
The 30-inch hatch atop the tube allows the SEALs to push out their combat rubber raiding craft after the lockout chamber has been flooded down.
The shower heads and faucets built into the side of the converted tube allow returning swimmers to rinse their gear of saltwater and then hang it on a powerful dryer down below.
Inside the missile tube compartment, there's berthing for 66 special operators in addition to ship's crew. In a pinch, the SSGN can haul 105 special operators with extra gear lockers and workout spaces for embarked SEALs.
"This is a premier platform for clandestine operators," Lim said.
Room to operate
While the conversion from ballistic missiles creates room in the tubes themselves, it also creates the rarest commodity in a submarine: open space.
Gone are the bulky inertial navigation machines used to guide the nuclear missiles. The suddenly freed-up space behind the control room now accommodates a Battle Management Center with room for a 30-man mission planning staff.
Using the latest integrated systems available in the fleet, the mission staff can provide, receive and monitor information in real time around the globe, officials say.
And when the command and control system is fully installed, the SSGN can act as a submerged command post.
Air Force, Army and Marine special operations forces have shown interest in operating from the SSGN. The presence of a high-flying Air Force officer is perhaps the most unusual.
Capt. Mark McGill, a special tactics officer with the 22nd Special Tactics Squadron based at McChord Air Force Base in Washington, said his troops can use Ohio as a clandestine forward air control and reconnaissance plat-form. Air Force special operators may also use SSGN for pilot recovery missions. McGill said they've even tested hand-launched UAVs to gather targeting data.
"In a nutshell, we can do that, have it and blast it back on satcomm to an air operations center," he said.
Navy Capt. Dave DiOrio works as the program director for SSGN at Submarine Force Headquarters in Norfolk, Va.
The potential of SSGN is just being tapped, he said.
Already, testing is underway on how Ohio might leverage unmanned aerial and underwater vehicles as well as several new forms of ordnance, including the Littoral Warfare Weapon. The LWW — essentially a sub-launched AIM-9 Sidewinder missile — would be used defensively against anti-submarine aircraft and small warships.
The universal encapsulation system to get the missile or other payload through the water to the surface is still in the works.
"Getting it out of the sub is the final step we're working on," he said. DiOrio said the SSGNs will all see more upgrades, such as night vision and recording capabilities for periscopes.
For all the attention being paid to the super-fast LCS, of which the Navy plans an eventual fleet of 55, the converted Cold War-era SSGN will be ready to deploy at the end of next year.
And it will be headed straight for the shallow water.
"This is the first vessel to go into the littorals and do something worthwhile for the Navy," DiOrio said. "SSGN working in concert with LCS brings a formidable force into the littoral to fight the war on terror.
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:I bet this beats the shit out of the Sea Lion we used to lock in and out of.:rolleyes: 60 men is the equivalent of an SF Company~:lifter